How good of a BLM can an Elvaan make?

[almighty_boof]

This is to Deodorant:
Does it make you feel better to actually call me an idiot? You could have easily corrected my ignorant statement. But you had to call me an idiot? I don't like you know. That was rude and I did not deserve that at all.

[Karinya]

A taru *black* mage has a stat advantage over other races. A taru white or red mage has a mix of advantages (+mp, +int for rdm) and disadvantages (-mnd, -hp, worse melee performance for rdm in the situations where you want to melee).

Max MP is important, but not as important as some people think - you only get it once (unless you're a rdm), after that you depend on mp regain which is race neutral. Taru INT is a bigger deal - but only for blm. For whm it's irrelevant and for rdm it's usually less important than mnd (paralyze, slow, silence).

Taru can be good at any mage job, but they're really only *outstanding* at blm.

And of course, player skill, level, and gear are all far more important than race. People who say "all other things being equal, taru are better blm" forget that all other things are NEVER equal - so that statement is true but useless and irrelevant if you're selecting a blm for your party. If you're a beginning player who has already decided to take blm to 75, go ahead and make a taru.

[Icemage]

The only thing I'd say makes Taru better mages overall is max MP, which allows for some odd combinations.

For instance, as a Taru WHM, I've been in the habit for the last few levels of using /BRD for Ballad and Madrigal instead of /BLM for Elemental Seal and Conserve MP. In the right party configuration, it works really well - I'm almost like a 2nd RDM when the PT configution is something like PLD/WAR, <melee>, <melee>, BLM/WHM, RDM/BLM, WHM/BRD - and you'd be amazed how often I find myself in this party configuration.

That being said, I don't know if I could do this if I weren't Tarutaru - at level 64 I have 760 MP as WHM/BRD. I lose about 100 max MP from not subbing /BLM, but 760 is still enough to make it to chain #5 with Refresh and Ballad running all the time. I think it'd be a lot harder if I were Elvaan... I wear a lot of +MP items as it is

When I use WHM/BLM, though, I'm not any more effective than if I were any other race, except in those cases where I would run out of MP, and those times aren't really that common.


Icemage

[Rekiem]

If you like Black Magic and dealing alot of damage, you should consider playing DRK if your an Elvaan, its a really good job and you will rock at it. DRK Elvaan kick butt, plain and simple :p

Why play BLM when you can play DRK and kick twice as much ass? :D

[Altruist]

Concerning end game the only real jobs that a taru could be considered the best at are smn, whm, and blm. It isn't too hard for a hume or mithra to get a 1:1 ratio for convert making the only stat that a taru exceeds at as an rdm is int. But even with smn and whm a bard and rdm will ensure that you don't run out of mp. So taru only really exceed as blm at endgame, and to be honest with the damage from fully decked out blms on hnm is maybe 0 - 200 on ancient bursts.

So yes, at several levels til end game taru's have an advantage. However, these advantages decrease as better equipment become available. And in the end at extreme cases it's about 20 or so int between a elvaan and a taru which is about 100-200 dmg on ancients and level IV's.

To be quite honest I love being a hume, it's always a challenge to maximize your stats to do well, and having expensive equipment to make your mage perform as well as a taru gives me something to strive for.

[AtraposBLM]

20 or so int difference makes 100-200 points of damage difference? Jesus man...sign me up!

[Yuanlung]

Originally posted by AtraposBLM
20 or so int difference makes 100-200 points of damage difference? Jesus man...sign me up!

I can see that being the case if that 20 INT means the difference of constantly getting resisted and over coming enemy resistance.

Other wise, no, 20 INT is not enough to make 200 points of difference.

[scheme]

Without getting off-topic, Taru are also exceptional at RDM. I don't personally feel as a Taru RDM that there is any other race who could come near doing as much as I do for an EXP party as I do, because I time my Convert on the dot every 10:00 so that I have no more MP left to use and so I'm back in an instant. I use Cure IV once after Convert and then use Drain and Regen to gain the rest of my MP back. My INT makes up for RDM's low rating in Elemental, and considering that an RDM's A+ in Enfeebling is the #1 decider of landing an enfeeble, filling slots with +MND means that I still land all my enfeebles on ITs without a struggle.

Can any other race match my near-perfect Convert HP/MP? Absolutely not. What I am about to say is obviously not apparent to very many of you, but it's about to be, and it effects both RDM and BLM and is why some people don't realize how good Taru are at both classes.

Even if you use a Serket Ring, an Astral Ring, and every other +MP item you can get your hands on, you give up those slots to MP and gain absolutely no +INT or +MND. An RDM's low ability in Elemental means that I need to bridge that gap with +INT, otherwise there is no chance at all that I will be able to use my BLM-enfeebles and Magic Burst without it being resisted. Not only do Tarus already have the highest INT in the game, I can also put almost every slot in my inventory to use raising my MND and INT so that my cures work better, my enfeebles work better, and my nukes work better. An RDM or BLM who is only raising their MP is weakening their ability to do all of these.

Sure, you're an Elvaan BLM with only 150 MP less than a Taru, you're stacking a Serket Ring, Astral Ring, the works. Fantastic, now what do you do about the 20 INT difference? Meanwhile, this Taru over here is not worried about his MP so he is tossing up every +Elemental and +INT he can find. There is no WAY you will ever be able to toss as many non-resisted spells for as much as he can. You will STILL be resisted enough and do less damage than a Taru, and the difference will be noticeable.

Some of you seem to be missing the reality of the situation in that if you choose to raise just MP, you do not raise your INT. If you raise INT, you do not raise much MP. There is absolutely no way for you to bridge the gap as a Galka or Elvaan BLM to anything except a "respectable" level. I've partied with Elvaan BLMs who had everything they could possibly have to be better, and I still sat there sighing to myself thinking "if he would just hand that equipment to a Taru and go play a class he's good at".

I would imagine that once I get to 65 (not sure what my profile says, 61 RDM, 42 BLM at the moment) and there are Elemental/Enfeebling Torques as well as Errant at 72 that the resistance will become less of an issue (just like Taru melee become less of an issue with the Haubergeon/Hauberk), but even in HNM fights the ability is in out-lasting a monster. A Taru's superior MP, and perhaps INT stand out a good deal in said fights because a Taru is just able to throw out more damage because of their resistance rate and their MP usage, just like every other Taru mage.

As well, I don't buy the whole "Well I'm an Elvaan, so I have more HP and I can take hits better" thing. I've only died because I was a Taru and no other race maybe 2-3 times leveling RDM to 61, BLM to 42, WHM to 27 and BRD to 25. When you're fighting monsters that hit mages for 250+ and can Double Attack, as well as being able to out-run you, the fact that you're Elvaan isn't going to mean a damn thing. It's still going to kill you, it may just take one more shot. The fact that you're Elvaan could also get you killed when you try to Sleep II a link or a too tough monster and it resists it because of your INT. I mostly see the "I have more HP" as a bullshit cop-out because people are afraid that their skills as a player aren't sufficient enough to compensate for their enhanced abilities in the class they've picked.

Now, having said all that, a lot of you probably will think I have a huge chip on my shoulder when it comes to other races and mages. I do not, however I do have a problem when I read forums like these and all I see are Elvaan BLMs going "Yea, we can be just as good as a Taru". The hell you can, you will never be better than a good Taru BLM, not in a million years. When I chose Taru on my character creation screen I chose it knowing that I would never in a million years be better than a Hume, Galka, Elvaan, or Mithra melee who had similiar equipment and was just as smart as me. Sure, an Elvaan BLM who is stacked to the teeth can be better than a level 60 Taru who doesn't have very good equipment, but I'm not talking about other players. I'm talking about myself, a person who is committed as a player to playing his job to the best of his ability, and I'll be damned if someone's going to tell me "Sure, I have 250 MP and 20 INT less than you, but I can be better than you".

You chose to be a better melee and a worse mage, deal with it.

But I will add a disclaimer to this entire post:

Never anywhere did I say that you could not be an Elvaan, Galka, Hume, or Mithra mage. They are perfectly acceptable and as long as you put hard work and money into it, you can be good as any class in the game. I very much like the fact that SquareEnix made it so a Taru can switch to a melee job and be good, and a Galka can switch to a mage job and be good at it too. But there is absolutely no weight in saying that you could be an Elvaan BLM, and if all you did about your character was switched him to Taru that you would not be any better. With equal skill levels and with equal equipment, a Taru is a better mage and an Elvaan is a better melee. Just how I say that, I also fully admit this much. I plan on being a Taru WAR eventually, I've toyed some with the class and I love how it works. I will also put tons of money (millions) into it and be the best I can possibly be, Haubergeon+1, Amemet Mantle+1, everything a Taru needs to be good. However, I fully admit and accept the reality that if I were to be playing a Galka with all of that equipment, I would be much better than a Taru would. I chose to be weak at some things, and extremely good at others, and I will stick with that.

Does this mean my Taru will suck as a melee? Not at all, I've seen some very impressive Taru WARs when I was partying who changed my mind from previously believing that I really should never touch a melee class as a Taru. However, I still will be just as good as an Elvaan WAR who only has on normal equipment and nothing fancy. This is just how it works with Elvaans and mage classes, you can wear a ton of great equipment and spend millions on it, and you will be good at the class, however you will not be as good as a Taru who only has on average equipment.

Please don't use other players who suck as a basis of saying "I could be just as good as a race who is designed for it when I am not", it doesn't work that way. If I were to do that then my Taru could be a better melee than 95% of the melee in parties I've been in, but this is not the case.

Sorry if this post has been offensive to anyone, that was not my goal, however I am not a person who would put the feelings of others below speaking his mind. I don't feel that the "anyone can do anything and anything works" notion is a viable one, if SquareEnix wanted things to be like that then they would only allow you to play one race, or all of the races would have the same stats. Races are designed to be better at certain classes than others, it's an undeniable fact, saying everyone can be as good as everyone else at anything is a blatant lie.

Having said all of that, yes, Elvaan can be good BLMs. Galka can be good RDMs. Taru can be good DRKs. Mithra can be good BRDs.

Will they be as good as other classes that are designed for the job and work as hard as they do? No.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by scheme
Read above.

Couldn't agree more. Usually, the people that say elvaan/hume/mithra/galka blm/rdm/smn's are just as good as taru's say that taru's are useless as melee's. It's simple...taru's have the 2 things you pay millions of gil to get more of...but they get it for free. How is that bad?

Does that mean other races can't be mages? Obviously not...but a taru with the same skill will just be better. Will it put a significant hamper on you? Meh, probably not. Just like there are high level taru melee's, there are high level galka/elvaan/mithra/hume blm/rdm/smn's. It's just a fact that a taru with the same gear will perform better.

EDIT: The 20 int damage thing was a joke, at best it'd be 40-50 damage extra.

[Kirara]

maybe people will speak a bit different when they actually see elvaan at high level doing high level stuff (as a mage)

when taking hits actually matter, things change

for redmage, i think on ragnarok the most famous rdm would be nasheru, an elvaan

maybe in leveling up party you are a bit more "efficient" however in the past half year of me being in crappy hnm business and dramas i find elvaan blm or rdm in that case, is no where inferiior than taru ones at all

[aszid]

well, of course you are 100% biased in your opinion.


an equally skilled player, with the same dedication, playing a Taru would have statistical advantages.

SE did NOT make all races equal, this is a FACT.

I am a firm believer that any race can play any job effectively. but it is just naive to think that you would be as good as the race that is MOST ADEPT at the job in question.

so yes, an evlaan black mage CAN be good. But a Taru of equal skill would ALWAYS be better.


for comparison... can you say that a taru warrior can be as good as a elvaan warrior?

[Kirara]

int mp isn't all a blm is about you know

king behemoth triple attacks you
an elvaan would live with probably 50-100hp left, a taru would be dead with -200 hp

and a live blm is always better than a dead one,no?

[aszid]

well.... from my experience thus far.... a grand total of about .0001% of my play time would have been improved by having more hp.....

yet the other 99.9999% of the time... i am benifitting from my enhanced MP as well as INT.

sure every once in an incredibly long while being an elvaan may benefit you. but i am benifitted by being a taru every time i play. I can't count the number of times i've heard people talking as if having higher HP and less MP was a beneficial thing for a mage. well, no, for the vast majority of your mage career your low hp will not hinder you in the least.


yet... you give one specific example, of something that most people will not EVER happen to them, as your example of how an elvaan can match a taru mage.... hmm... let me thinks...

"so the other day i was in a party, and i didn't slow down my party because i have tons of mp, whereas an elf has half of my MP pool."

bam, there, a generic every-day example that shows the benefit of being taru over elvaan, and it didn't even have to include a HNM, or anything else that most people have not even experiened yet.

[scheme]

Originally posted by Kirara
int mp isn't all a blm is about you know

king behemoth triple attacks you
an elvaan would live with probably 50-100hp left, a taru would be dead with -200 hp

and a live blm is always better than a dead one,no?

Considering all the screenshots I've seen of HNM LSs fighting King Behemoth, Nidhogg, Kirin, etc have tons of Taru BLMs, all alive, sitting in the picture, I'll take my chances.

Now, not that I am familiar with hard HNM fights such as KBehemoth (I am obviously not), I wanted to know from you: Is it correct in that you generally do not tank King Behemoth, and instead merely use Gravity/Bind and "kite" him? Basically, deal damage with nukes/DOT spells that eventually kill him, because tanking is impossible on such a monster as King Behemoth?

If this is true, then I suppose you could be correct, although I suppose what you are mentioning is most likely a freak accident that is not prone to happen very often. In all likelihood, if you got hate long enough in a kiting situation for King Behemoth to target you, get to you, and use Triple Attack, I'm imagining that you living is still not going to happen. There are other ways that you could get killed, considering he has a mulitutude of attacks that would kill anyone in FFXI in one shot, no?

So why don't we just bring up this situation?

What happens when you get hate from King Behemoth and he uses a move that kills you instantly? The only thing that matters then is who did the most damage before dying (considering that's a BLM's job), and Taru has you out-weighed there.

In the situation that you DO indeed have a tank, then it's quite simply either the tank's fault for not keeping hate, or yours for over-nuking it. In that case, what you also have to consider is that MP and INT are certainly not the only things that a BLM needs, but a strong sense of when to attack and when to flee.

Keep in mind that I am not stating these as factual, I am genuinely interested in hearing your facts on fights such as King Behemoth, and as to whether or not this kind of a thing is possible as well. If I'm correct, however, and from reading many articles/logs about it I am, you're giving one hypothetical situation in which an Elvaan would live, and leaving a ton of other situations where either a Taru would live or both would die completely to the wind just to support your point.

Not that I'm saying you are doing that, but considering what I've read about these fights, what I've read on this topic and these forums, and general human nature, I'd say that you're most likely withholding the complete truth and only giving one instance in which case this would be true.

Even then, a Raise III takes what, 18 seconds? That's 18 seconds you would've spent running your ass off anyways.

#1 - I can wear HP+ items to stop me from getting one-shotted
#2 - I would still have more INT, and most likely more MP than you

Also, I consider it kind of a misleading argument to state "Well Tarus may be better at leveling, but when it comes to certain instances where you're going to get hit, we're better".

Have you ever really thought about this thought?:

"Doing every single bit of leveling in the entire game is easier as a Taru mage, but when it comes to doing mundane fights every 3 days that get us killed and net us money we have nothing to do with considering we're level 75 anyways, we're better."

Does that make sense to you? Because I was searching and I really didn't find a point in that one.

[Akeda]

Originally posted by Kirara
int mp isn't all a blm is about you know

king behemoth triple attacks you
an elvaan would live with probably 50-100hp left, a taru would be dead with -200 hp

and a live blm is always better than a dead one,no?

hahahahahahahhahhahahahhahahahah

ok.