Game Balance and User Frustration

[Ketaru]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Originally Posted by Icemage View Post

RDM isn't a support job any more, not sure where you got that idea. It still "can" do support, but it's greatly expanded on the melee and nuking fronts at least in terms of endgame (75+). Sure, it's not a BLM, but RDM also have access to more MP than all other mage jobs. And no, it's not a front-line DD, but at least the melee damage output from RDM is at least close to/equal to the more hybrid direct damage classes like Paladin. Granted, you can't do all of the above at the same time, but you now have the option of avoiding full-time support if that's not what you want to do.


Icemage

BRB getting my eyes examined.

As much as I get why you'd be surprised Icemage would be saying it, it's not really that surprising to have a shift in mindset...depending on what you're looking at.

Melee- You've got a lot of people in EXP parties not particularly caring about damage dealing these days. People standing around not gear swapping. People standing around not doing anything period. You'd probably be better off with a RDM with TP build and a WS build than a damage dealer who doesn't give a rat's arse.

From an NM perspective, may not have anything on a WAR or NIN, but it still actually has quite a lot of proc WSs at its disposal, given the right subjob: Seraph Strike, Cyclone, Energy Drain, Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade, Sidewinder, Blast Arrow, Shadowstitch, Evisceration, Vorpal Blade, Savage Blade, Skull Breaker, True Strike, and Judgment.

No, you don't want them meleeing NMs. But- you know- the way things are run in my LS, we don't really have many people meleeing tougher NMs to begin with...less annoying people that need healing that way. Probably doesn't sound right to some people. But the truth is, if you're a dedicated damage dealer only, you probably wouldn't have a whole lot of fun in our linkshell unless you're top tier. Like top 3, in which case you get to melee. So yeah, you would't take RDM to melee higher tier NMs. But that's OK cause nobody gets to!

[Icemage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

The job roles of all the mage types shifted dramatically after the level cap rose above 80. RDM was impacted probably more than any other job because of Refresh no longer being an exclusive spell, which loosened the deathgrip that RDMs had for the traditional support role. Granted, Refresh II being added makes RDM still an excellent MP-restoration battery, but since anyone with any MP at all can sub RDM for Refresh I or SCH for Sublimation, it's not nearly so important as it used to be.

Expanded nuking spells, better melee gear, and just all around higher level differences means that stuff you wouldn't dare to melee as a RDM at level 75 becomes much more manageable at level 85+. All of which makes RDM much less of a forced support job at higher levels than it used to be.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

What better melee gear are we talking about? Other than some physical WS pieces, Zelus Tiara is the only thing that particularly stands out to me. Getting to haste cap involves almost all pre-75 gear.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Almace maybe? Atmas? I dunno, but the whole bit about stuff you wouldn't melee on at 75 rings hollow for me. Sure you wouldn't melee on it at 75, but there's stuff for the new level cap that's the exact same scenario. In fact it's even more pronounced now if anything, given how Ketaru's shell doesn't even have their DDs swinging most of the time.

If there's anything that's shifted it is our ability to kick more ass with our nukes. I'm finding less and less incentive to keep a melee set around these days.
*shrug*

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Yeah, agree. Any time a rdm could be dealing damage to something now it's almost certainly better done with a tier IV. Except now I have black mage leveled so there's no point in playing rdm at all. You could make a case for Aeolian edge, but tbh I haven't even taken the time to cap my dagger skill.

The group I run with handles NMs more or less the same as Ketaru's. Melee if you're tanking it, landing TH or procing red/blue, preferably with auspice and boost-AGI up, otherwise stay the heck out of AoE range. Special exceptions made for empyrean holders. It's the old TP-feeding argument again, made more valid by more dangerous TP moves. Goblin rash? w/e let it have TP. Fulmination? GTFO.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Except now I have black mage leveled so there's no point in playing rdm at all.

This is a fairly large concern I have. We're wandering into the realm of BLM-lite, but there's not a whole lot we bring to the table in today's metagame that isn't covered just as well (if not better) by other jobs.

It seems like the only feather we have left in our hat is soloing, and even that's beginning to fade as evasion heavy jobs are now the toast of the town when it comes to soloing most NMs.

[Mhurron]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Except now I have black mage leveled so there's no point in playing rdm at all.

Yep. It's pretty rare I'm on my RDM at all now, and it makes me sad when I remember that. Kinda odd when you consider I just said one day, 'my BLM is 68, I'm going to finnish it.'

I'm basically only on RDM now low manning missions.

[Icemage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

In general you're not going to melee most NMs anyhow (unless said NMs are 15+ levels below you). When I say that melee is a more viable option, it's because virtually everything released before the level caps were raised above 75 is now trivial to the point where it's no longer certifiably insane to melee. Of course, you're "probably" better off just nuking it down since RDM actually has some tier 4 nukes with teeth, but the option is there.

Also with the expanded level caps, virtually everything released pre-80+ cap can be solo'd by RDM with melee aside from a small fraction of NMs.

Only the most recently released content for level 80+ is bad to melee, and sometimes not even then (see: Abyssea where no one really seems to care ). I'd rather have a RDM attempting to contribute than a DRK sitting around on auto-attack. It does beg the question of why you want to play RDM at all at endgame, however. Refresh II just isn't enough reason to bring RDMs any more. Enfeebling spells would be a better excuse, but there you're basically just window dressing beyond that, and you only ever need 1.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I think I misunderstood you before. You mean that the content that was "endgame" when we were 75 is so much easier now that we're 90 that a rdm could melee it. That's almost certainly true, but I wouldn't call it "greatly expanded melee at endgame" any more than I would a 75rdm meleeing Serket two years ago.

Bringing a rdm for enfeebling has its caveats, too. There are now mobs like Vetehinen, Sisyphus and Itzpapalotl that are in the sweet spot of being strong enough to be worth enfeebling and weak enough to reliably land spells on, but will actively punish you for debuffing them in one way or another.

[Mhurron]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Ya, I love the active hate for debuffs SE has developed.

[Cotners]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I sometimes take my RDM out to solo farm gold chests for KIs and random stuff because I can do all my own lights.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

That's almost certainly true, but I wouldn't call it "greatly expanded melee at endgame" any more than I would a 75rdm meleeing Serket two years ago.

Well, we got a handful of good gear for it since 75, but then a lot of it was pretty much blown out of the water by everybody else's AF3.

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I sometimes take my RDM out to solo farm gold chests for KIs and random stuff because I can do all my own lights.

That's fair. I've thought about doing the same but I bet my blu could do it better once I finish it, so I work on that instead. I've sortof dug my rdm's grave with the other jobs I've chosen to level. Might as well level whm after I top off my pld and put the last nail in it.

I'm not really as angry about this as my fatalism seems to suggest but, well, these things are true.

[Firewind]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I can solo farm fine on my WHM though once my DNC is finished I think I'll mostly be on that for full time soloing.

With the RDM, one thing it does bring to the table is versatility. It will never be the best at anything unless Squeenix wants to break the class but it can fit neatly into a number of roles. I think the majority of the RDM community really lack the understanding of what a generalist class is. If you want to be the best at something, go and play a specialist. Most RDMs would be best off just switching to SCh of they want to be a mage that can take on multiple roles.

I wasn't aiming this post at anyone on here so the RDMs here should not take this personally, but if you read other forums, the RDM community has probably been the whiniest community I've seen in an MMO. No matter what Squeenix adds to RDMs, it is never enough. I'd love my WHM to be able to solo melee Shinryu while healing everyone solo and nuking for over nine thousand damage too but the fact is this: If the RDM was great at everything, what would be the point in playing any other class?

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I sometimes take my RDM out to solo farm gold chests for KIs and random stuff because I can do all my own lights.

I've tried to do this a number of times in Konschtat for Dark Rings, but it always ends badly. Partially because my melee set is pretty subpar, but mostly because I simply do not have the patience to farm lights other than Azure.

---------- Post added at 05:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------

I wasn't aiming this post at anyone on here so the RDMs here should not take this personally, but if you read other forums, the RDM community has probably been the whiniest community I've seen in an MMO. No matter what Squeenix adds to RDMs, it is never enough. I'd love my WHM to be able to solo melee Shinryu while healing everyone solo and nuking for over nine thousand damage too but the fact is this: If the RDM was great at everything, what would be the point in playing any other class?

I think the problem there is that the majority of Red Mages are confused about what class they are actually playing. And by that I of course mean 99% of RDM melee players are pants-on-head-retarded and refuse to accept the reality that the iconic image of Red Mage does not match the Red Mage as it has evolved in FFXI, nor will it ever.