Game Balance and User Frustration

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I procced with Dispel once. True story.

[Malacite]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Adequate at many roles but not preferred at any is, imo, the correct balance of power for rdm. Having a niche in the enfeebling department was nice, too, and it worked out because it was something we could excel at that didn't let us eclipse any other job in traditional party roles. When rdm actually became preferred over whm that was obviously a big screw-up on SE's part and it's a good thing that's no longer the case. What's happened now, though, is that rdm is no longer even adequate at any of the roles it performs.

But even that though, struck me as odd.

Why isn't DRK the big enfeebling guy? It kind of is, but not enough. I never understood why RDM got to specialize in it in the first place when it's not meant to be a master of anything. Again, enfeebling makes more sense on DRK, at least to me, given what DRK is. It just fits the job so perfectly, more so than any other as it's all about big damage and terrorizing your enemies with twisted magic - and what's more twisted than debilitating status ailments?


I wouldn't say it's not adequate at anything anymore, at least not inside Abyssea. If anything Abyssea has proven to be the great liberator for RDM, since you can use gear & atma to basically set yourself up for whatever rolls you wish to play.


Since they did give RDM A+ Enfeebling though, they may as well run with it for future updates. Some more unique debuffs or higher tiers of existing spells would be nice. Maybe Bind II that doesn't break when you hit the target for example. Some decent melee gear (that isn't a complete bitch to obtain) would also be a wonderful addition. It's like RDM gets too much hybrid gear that it just doesn't need - unless SE ever decides to tweak the job again to help enable hybrid playstyles. I've long advocated a RDM-only trait that allows you to melee and cast magic simultaneously. Casting while moving would be cool, but the potential for abuse with that would be way too great.

[Armando]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I never understood why RDM got to specialize in it in the first place when it's not meant to be a master of anything.

Because after the game came out SE realized that the job needed a niche if it wanted party invites beyond "well, we're all out of WHMs and/or BLMs so I guess we'll have to take a RDM." People will never bring a generalist over a specialist in an MMO unless they're going for a low-man or the generalist brings something unique to the table.

As for DRK, clearly SE was not very good at designing jobs back then.

[Etra]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

As for DRK, clearly SE was not very good at designing jobs back then.

Wasn't DRK designed after RDM? (At least, in the production of things, RDM was designed first.)

[Armando]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

By "back then" I mostly mean "pre-ToAU." Not that they succeeded in making PUP wanted for parties, but they clearly had much more interesting ideas by ToAU than designing a job that spams 2 or 3 songs all party long or a job that just stands there and punches things, occasionally popping Berserk and Focus.

[Malacite]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I'm not so sure RDM needed to specialize in anything.

How often was RDM invited to EXP because of it's Enfeebling Magic? Almost never (dispel doesn't count - they could have still made that spell RDM only and given them B- skill). We all know the real reasons RDM got EXP at 40+.


I blame it more on SE half-assing the job. They give RDM decent nuking tools, but then screw them over with C+ skill instead of B+ or A- (DRK has higher elemental magic skill than RDM somehow...) They give them the ability to melee, but give them largely crappy gear selection outside of Joyeuse and a few all-jobs haste items, B- skill, and restricted certain weaponskills - a mistake they rectified with BLU, but still haven't seen fit to remedy for RDM. I understand that they can't make it too good, but these are largely little things that would have gone a long way towards helping the job be a bit more versatile/attractive without breaking game balance entirely.

[Neverslip]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I simply think this funny... this might just be one of the longest hijackings of a 'Whine-post' I've seen in a very long long time.

[NightShayde]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

I procced with Dispel once. True story.

Me, too! Me, too!

[Squiggs]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

this might just be one of the longest hijackings of a 'Whine-post'

At least it's still technically about game-balance and RDM frustration.

[Firewind]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

Me, too! Me, too!

I have a macro that goes something like this for when I get to proc Yellow or Red:

/ma "Banish II" <t> or /ws Seraph Strike <t>
/p "I'M HELPING!"

[Armando]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

How often was RDM invited to EXP because of it's Enfeebling Magic? Almost never (dispel doesn't count - they could have still made that spell RDM only and given them B- skill). We all know the real reasons RDM got EXP at 40+.

I won't deny that RDM's main reasons for invites were Haste/Refresh post-41, but back in the day, around 2005-2006, I used to invite RDMs to enfeeble. Back then people blindly followed Campsitarus instead of using their own judgment on when it was appropriate to move to a new camp based on the party level and the mob levels, so you'd often get parties that were too low level for the camp they were attempting. Enfeebling an IT++ mob isn't easy for a WHM or BLM. They're prone to resists, which means wasting even more time and MP on enfeebling instead of doing their real jobs. Plus, for enfeebling to be truly effective you need to apply it as soon as the battle starts.

Having a RDM doing dedicated enfeebling means the WHM and BLM can get an extra tick or two of MP at the start of fights and less MP is wasted on enfeebling overall. They also don't need to interrupt healing to reapply worn debuffs. Other beneficial side effects of having a RDM enfeebler around included extra crowd control (which counted for a lot back then when a fight could last over 90 seconds easily and links were fucking deadly), and Gravity is awesome since it helped melees hit the mob and it bought time for the tank to get back hate if the mob turned to the mages. Also, Crabs and Crawlers were ideal EXP targets but good luck getting past Coccoon/Scissor Guard without a dispeller. Another indirect benefit is that it kept the WHM and BLM's hate lower, since Blind is a relatively high-hate enfeeble and you definitely don't want to get resisted and have to recast it on WHM or BLM.

Of course I also invited them for the jack-of-all-trades aspect. A RDM doing backup healing can also allow WHMs to get longer and more efficient rest periods, and the RDM could contribute to Magic Bursts along with the BLM. But that was something you could get by inviting an extra WHM or BLM; the other benefits weren't as easy to replace. A RDM helped the WHM and BLM perform really smoothly, it just did so in very subtle and indirect ways, unlike a BRD where the effect is directly seen in your MP gauge. Of course with T-VTs being the norm, all of that flew out the window. And like you said, post-41 Refresh became the main selling point even if the rest of the utility value was still there.

[Neverslip]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

At least it's still technically about RDM frustration.

There's so few of those threads out there too...

[cidbahamut]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

since Blind is a relatively high-hate enfeeble

Nitpicking: was, past tense. They redid enmity on a bunch of enfeebles a while back to nerf RDM tanking.

I do miss it being high hate for the added layer of awareness it required and the utility of being able to spam it for hate on the off-chance you ever needed to.

[Firewind]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

They did this with Flash too. You can't really do it anymore now due to how hard Abyssea mobs will hit you but back in ToAU, it was perfectly possible for a WHM to tank an Imp in emergencies (Anf Off-Tank on Colibri if any woke up early). They never really hit for much and as long as nobody fed them TP, a WHM could hold hate from one of those for a long time.

[Taskmage]

Re: Game Balance and User Frustration

They reduced the enmity on flash? How the hell is a paladin supposed to hold hate?