Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

[Karinya]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

You can substitute amir feet for aurum, the stats are very similar (except the 2% haste, unfortunately), and they only require assault, not a tier 3 ZNM (that's a lot of zeni even if you get the drop first time).

For the legs, galliard trousers would be good if you have them (slightly less acc but no -atk), but if you don't, they're only moderately easier to get (you only have to kill one NM with a 100% drop, but it's Kurrea, who may be harder to beat than low tier ZNMs).

If you don't have any of the listed (rather high-end) hands, tarrasque mitts are cheap and useful.

Chivalrous chain is an affordable substitute for your disgustingly expensive and/or hard to get neck slot suggestions. :p (Actually spectacles aren't *that* bad, but you can get chiv chain for free, it's cheaper even if you're buying it, and it will perform about equally with spectacles, overall - probably better if you don't have a sea torque and have to leave it on for WS.)

Also, I find PLD to be a lot of fun to play in Campaign. More fun than merit, that's for sure (although the exp rate is lower).

P.S. Why don't you list Justice as an offhand? Does it not proc or something? It seems to me that Organics/Justice would be even better than the setups you list (since Justice has higher damage than Joyeuse and +7 STR too). Of course you'd need stones, which is kind of a pain for merit. But considering your idea of "not going too crazy" includes PCC, swift belt and multiple dusk pieces, I don't think you're too concerned about the inconvenience of getting the setup together.

[Celeal]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Besides PLD/NIN for merits, PLD/DNC works too, as using TP for Waltz and Samba --- another reliable source of HP recovery.

For example, the new Shield Spike spell, which leads to more shield proc, less damage taken, more TP (Shield Mastery), more Curing Waltz for PLD/DNC.

Even swap-in DD gear just for WS has benefit for traditional turtle style tanking.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Hmm, I guess I'll pass on the PLD thing after all, I don't have a sky ls, not even a dynamis one and I don't think I can make the time commitment to try to get a LS anyway.

Already have capped xp so tanking in a merit party was for fun purposes only (like everything else I do in the game really <_<; ), so I don't think it's even worth the trouble to end up being just kinda sort of adequate in the end.


Thanks for the suggestions though.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

It's sort of the issue DRG had back in the day, not that it was ever bad, but loads of DRGs played/geared the job incorrectly/poorly so it got the 'lolDRG' stigma when it was in fact capable of being a top-tier DD.

I'm still 1k from 68 but I have a fair amount of PLD gear lined up for 70+ already in terms of what would make you a viable meripo PLD there's lots of new stuff available now.

Organics is possibly the single best WS Sword in the game outside of Excalibur now, and it's a monster for Vorpal, that + Joyeuse would have very respectable output. Aurum Cuisses and Sabatons are both extremely nice pieces as well, and relatively easy to obtain if your LS does ZNMs.

Without going too crazy on whiteboxing/relic/etc. this is some gear recommendations I'd make for it:

TP

Organics/Joy(Company/Joy and Justice/Joy work well too)
Tiphia Sting or Smart Grenade
W. Turban
PCC/Spectacles/Fortitude Torque
Hollow/Accurate/Fenrir's/Fowling/Suppa/basically whatever reasonable DD earrings you have
Hauby(this is huuuuge piece)
Askar/Dusk/Homam(any haste hands really)
Acc/Rajas/Uthalam's Rings(w/e you got)
Amemet +1/Forager's/Cerb(I still prefer Amemet+1 just b/c it's useful for so many jobs)
Swift Belt/Potent Belt
Homam/Dusk/Aurum Cuisses
Homam/Dusk/Aurum Sabatons(these are seriously a fantastic TP piece for PLD)

WS

Optical Hat
PCC/Soil/Thunder Gorgets(Soil works for Vorpal/Swift, Thunder for Vorpal/Savage, Soil may work for all 3)
Same earrings most likely
Hauby
STR rings, maybe Acc rings if no sword merits
Same backpiece as TP
Warwolf Belt
Aurum/R.K. Breeches/Valor
Aurum/N.Feet

Most of that is easily in reach in any normal endgame LS that does Sky/Sea, I skipped things like Heca hat/subligar since I never assume that someone camps kings.

I have a good chunk of this already but I still need Aurum Legs/Feet. With Colibri you could easily spam cheapkabobs for a nice Attack boost, doesn't completely make up for losing Berserk but it's a decent boost and cheap even if losing food often. On Mamools you could do Sushi and have some fun with Vorpal. It would be nice if a Crit build for Vorpal was more feasible without full Hecatomb and such, I'd have to really sit and look at it to see what reasonable DD gear could get you to the 112~ DEX spot vs. birds.

Really if you have another merit job there's not a ton of reason to merit on PLD, but it's nice being able to at least hold your own in the party should you want faster buffer than campaign battles. As with NIN, really your main goal is to be first voke and hold the mob's attention until everyone is ready to unload on it, in doing that you may as well get a few good shots in yourself. :D

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I'm lvl 75 right now, and ever since the lolPLDdd thing I simply stopped partying except for some cases where I've been asked to switch jobs to replace someone.

But lately it's all been missions (like Alexander) what I've used PLD for.

And really, if PLD is considered dead weight one way or the other I rather just keep turtling for missions only and forget about ever tanking on merit parties. I have both RDM and BRD which I would enjoy 10 times more than playing PLD in that situation anyway.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

What level PLD now? And /NIN DDadin is still good for merits, while not as ideal as a NIN or WAR, it makes the PLD less of dead weight than they'd be as a turtle.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

That's interesting, I've had to go change jobs to PLD before to replace a ddPLD, and the difference between Emnity control and dmg taken was very noticeable (I've always been a turtle so I don't have DD gear yet to make any comparisons myself).

Guess I'll check out that guide and see if I like the results at lvl 75, if what you say is true it might be worth a try.


(I leveled PLD up to 70 back when PLD didn't use DD gear, and the rest of the way I soloed for the most part because I despised the lolPLDdd approach <_<; )



Edit > Never mind that guide is only up to lvl 60. ; ;

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

or a Woodsman Ring with Jelly Ring

Yeah that's the only static piece in my entire setup, the right ring slot, depending on party it's either a Woodsman, a Hercules', or a Jelly, and regardless of what set I switch to it stays the same. This is also largely due to console macro limitations, though.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

What they said. This in particular: "The real difference comes from 2 things: Food and Defender" needs to be emphasized. I use almost exactly the same gear setup for every EXP party. Sometimes I'll switch around R.G. Collar and Shield Torque, or a Woodsman Ring with Jelly Ring, but that's about it. The difference between old-school PLD equip and hybrid equip is relatively small, that's why we lean towards the latter - lose little, gain plenty. The big difference comes from the big buffs. If the party insists on fighting mobs 10-12 levels higher than me then I keep the same gear but I either drop sushi and eat defense food or I keep the sushi but pop Defender.

[Taskmage]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

/

Question, how exactly do you know the base amount of def/vit you need to have for tanking before you start filling the rest of armor slots for other stats (like acc, att, etc.)?

I've seen some really bad lolPLDdds in the past and they just gear towards damage without considering def/vit at all, they then procede to make the party bleed so much MP and Emnity due to HP loss that it completely defeats the purpose of having a PLD in the party in the first place. So, (How?) do you do it?


PS > Or is DD gear for /NIN only and they missunderstood that?

I have been for the most part following Armando's pld equipment page linked on the previous page and I've been pretty happy with the result. The gap in defense between offensively natured gear and turtle gear hasn't been very large at all from what I've seen so far. Just stay away from things that offer no def whatsoever like emp pin and you should end up with an acceptable number. Once DD and tank gear start diverging from eachother you get things like kite shields and sentinel and flash to compensate for any loss. That's my experience up to 40 anyway.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

/

Question, how exactly do you know the base amount of def/vit you need to have for tanking before you start filling the rest of armor slots for other stats (like acc, att, etc.)?

I've seen some really bad lolPLDdds in the past and they just gear towards damage without considering def/vit at all, they then procede to make the party bleed so much MP and Emnity due to HP loss that it completely defeats the purpose of having a PLD in the party in the first place. So, (How?) do you do it?


PS > Or is DD gear for /NIN only and they missunderstood that?

I had the same questions when I first moved from turtle to hybrid, Armando helped out a lot. The biggest issue is over-hunting. If the mob is IT++++, yeah you need to turtle up a bit, when it's high VT-lower IT that's the prime time for DDadin. I personally keep 3 main sets(at 67, will have more like 5-7 sets at 75), Enmity, TP, and WS, with a single macro to tack on Parade Gorget. You'd be surprised at the minimal differences in defense between the sets, as most heavy DD gear(i.e. Hauby, R.K. Breeches, Fourth Gauntlets) actually has relatively high defense, and at most I think I'm missing out on about 8 VIT, as even my turtle setup focuses on Enmity rather than VIT/DEF.

The real difference comes from 2 things: Food and Defender. Even if I'm turtling up now, I'll still swap to my TP/WS sets as normal, but I'll use Defender. In the mid 40's I was gauging it by the first few fights, if the mobs kicked my head in I would go with Crab, if not then Sushi.

The level where I found it completley comfortable to do full on DDadin was around 55, whenever you get Vorpal with full Sword merits. Since you're on Colibri food's not really an option, and you get used to only popping Defender when you really need it. Otherwise the important thing is just hold hate, and let the support and incoming Refresh keep you alive. Once I hit 60 I was pretty much in full-on DD mode, while still not a first tier DD I've put up some respectable #'s, 600+ Vorpals in the mid 60's, and if you have a SAM doing Gekko closing with Swift goes a long way for damage/hate, even if the WS itself doesn't do huge damage.
______________________________

And before people chime in with RDM or BLU or DNC, I'm referring to WAR.

Pffffffffftttt

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I am aware that PLD tanking is a LOT harder to screw up. But when you're regularly down to less than 20% of your MP pool when fighting VT's and the BARD is having to assist you with cures know something is badly wrong. And pick up parties always wonder why I insist that they pull some toughs to warm up on. Some setups just don't work and some places (I'm looking at Garliage and Quicksand Caves in particular) are just plain horrible places to be in at any level. I would like to know if the players that were just banded together will work well before we start pulling anything that could actually kill the party.

So you don't care for blink tanks, and mention Quicksand Caves as a sore spot. Did your party have a NIN blink tank spiders? Spiders are NIN killers. They spam AoE slow that overwrites Haste, and they have a wonderful way of timing Sickle Slash right as shadows go down.

This goes back to what Lago said: it's situational. All 3 tanks have their place in this game. Yes, I said THREE tanks. And before people chime in with RDM or BLU or DNC, I'm referring to WAR. They don't all excel against the same mobs or in the same activities.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

/

Question, how exactly do you know the base amount of def/vit you need to have for tanking before you start filling the rest of armor slots for other stats (like acc, att, etc.)?

I've seen some really bad lolPLDdds in the past and they just gear towards damage without considering def/vit at all, they then procede to make the party bleed so much MP and Emnity due to HP loss that it completely defeats the purpose of having a PLD in the party in the first place. So, (How?) do you do it?


PS > Or is DD gear for /NIN only and they missunderstood that?

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Pick-up parties are not representative of a job's potential. Most pick-up PLDs I see in EXP suck something awful. The difference is that a shitty PLD can perform in a borderline acceptable manner, whereas a shitty ninja crashes and burns completely.

You should see my PLD, it's getting sexy! >.>

I don't know when the hell I'm going to get to finish it though, now I have to keep up with nightly LS events, finish Half-Life 2, and start MGS4 without missing work.

[Celeal]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

People who say that Blink Tanks are less of an MP sponge then Paladins have never levelled WHM before. I don't think I've ever had more then 40% MP with a blink tank in the party.

IMHO, if a Mage is not using his/her MP, it is a waste of party slot. I consider average of MP half-filled throughout the exp. flow is good in general cases: When I tank as PLD or NIN also look as healer's rate MP consumption & recovery to evaluate the overall performance. At the end, it is how fast you use your MP vs. how fast you can recover the MP you have used that matters.