Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I feel it's the other way around personally, in merits you're essentially fighting the same mob for 3 hours, where in missions/BCs/whatever you're only fighting the 20 minutes. The larger sample size of many mobs/hours in merits is what expounds upon the seemingly minute differences in gear choices.

But what I mean by that is:

In the end what gives you more bang for your buck? In fast paced fights what will make more of a difference, and extra 3.75% hit rate or the combined bonus from all the stats Warwolf gives you (DEF/VIT/STR/DEX/Emnity/Acc/Att)?

Same with a long fight, will that 3.75% "increase" in hit rate/hate really give you more benefits than the overall boosts from Warwolf?

Keep in mind this is for high defense tanking with very little focus on dmg output. My objective is to keep as much attention from the mob as possible while taking as little dmg as possible, which relies a lot more on spells and job abilities than melee damage.

The main reason why a PLD can't function in a merit party is MP, we can turtle really good for a chain 5, but after that we simply run out of gas (or MP), which is why a PLD playing it like a WAR with swords is better in that setting, but still a burden no matter how you slice it.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

See this is the kind of calculator approach that sucks the fun out of the game for me.

Being efficient is fun. I know I have fun when I do 15-20% of the party's damage output and the DDs don't give me enough to do.

The difference between doing 5% more damage and doing 2% more damage and having 3% more hate is that the Acc kills mob, Enmity doesn't. You may dismiss the Warwolf VS Life Belt debate as trivial, but it's not just the belt slot. When you expand that to cover all gear slots - Acc ring vs Hercules, Fourth Gauntlets vs Gallant Gauntlets, Haubergeon vs Gallant Surcoat, then we're not talking of a mere 2-3% here. Now I have about 15-20% more hit rate than you.

And here's the thing about Accuracy. Accuracy is a double whammy stat, just like Haste. I don't JUST do 15% more hits. I do 15% more hits AND WS 15% more often. The net gain is much bigger.
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Then you have to take into account that the more you turtle the more you're relying on JAs and Cures for hate. What do those things have in common? You can only use so much of it over a given time period (there's recasts on JAs, and you can only recover so much MP over time for Cures.) On top of that, most of the enmity generated by JAs and Cures is volatile, which means that you may have spiked hate now, but you're not keeping it in the long run.
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Damage is "free" hate. The more damage you do, the less resources (JAs and MP) you need to use to keep hate. Don't want to be blinking like a traffic light? Then don't. If you went pseudo-DD you wouldn't need to be stacking Enmity everywhere. I fight with just 2 Enmity, and that's because I don't have a good DD headpiece to put on my head. I don't bother macroing in any Enmity gear into my actions. I still hold hate just fine with just Flash and Provoke, my WS and my damage. I use Cure once per fight because otherwise I'd be sitting on full MP, and I toss Sentinel every 5 minutes because of the damage reduction, but I rarely ever have to toss Warcry/Rampart/Shield Bash/Cover.
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Besides, even if both methods held hate equally, doing more damage kills the mob faster. That means more dead mobs and more EXP. That alone is reason enough.

P.S. Pardon the multiple posts, I have some malware on my PC that prevents me from making posts that are too long. That means I can't delete the part I copied twice accidentally either.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

So really, is it really worth trading the simultaneous boost on many stats to get a bit more dmg hate? Also, does that 5% increase really make a bigger difference in a short fight (merits) or a long fight (missions/NM/etc.) to really overshadow the stat bonues from Warwolf?

I feel it's the other way around personally, in merits you're essentially fighting the same mob for 3 hours, where in missions/BCs/whatever you're only fighting the 20 minutes. The larger sample size of many mobs/hours in merits is what expounds upon the seemingly minute differences in gear choices.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

If you think a 5% increase to your sucky damage output isn't going to help (which means a straight-up 5% increase to the hate you make through melee damage), what makes you think that a 3% increase to the hate your sucky damage output makes is going to be better? You're looking at 5% vs 3% on matter how you slice it, and you can always swap in Warwolf for JAs and MAs if you really think that 3% matters.

See this is the kind of calculator approach that sucks the fun out of the game for me.

Why would I want to bother swaping in and out that +acc while losing the defense/vit from the belt in the process, just for a 2% increase on dmg hate (which is 2% of whatever fraction melee dmg is from my overall hate generation.)

Also, I thought DEX gave acc at a 2 to 1 rate, so even if I'm not wearing the belt I'm still getting a 2.5 acc, which would translate to what, 1.25% on top of the 3% from emnity while keeping the VIT/DEF bonus from Warwolf, not even counting DEX itself and the +att from the STR stat.

So really, is it really worth trading the simultaneous boost on many stats to get a bit more dmg hate? Also, does that 5% increase really make a bigger difference in a short fight (merits) or a long fight (missions/NM/etc.) to really overshadow the stat bonues from Warwolf? I mean if we are talking about fractions of a percentage I really don't see how it would make that much of a difference outside a theorical setting. In fact I've tested both belts for quite some time and for my playstyle Warwolf wins by far.

Not to mention the extra inventory load on my already full gobbie bag.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

I want to see some wiki formula with the term '1.05 * Suck' in it.

[Celeal]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

With a few sword skill merit, Warwolf belt is *okay* for melee-xp build in certain exp. setup (like sushi + Bard + other ACC+ gear such as Hauby...). With ACC+ bonus from PLD/DNC plus a few sword merit, I can wear Warwolf full time in Campaign.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Maybe for someone geared towards DD, but for high def/vit tanking a 5% increase on a low dmg output (considering that's the increase for A rank skill at lvl 71+) isn't going to do much compared to the added emnity and stats, or at least it doesn't for me.

If you think a 5% increase to your sucky damage output isn't going to help (which means a straight-up 5% increase to the hate you make through melee damage), what makes you think that a 3% increase to the hate your sucky damage output makes is going to be better? You're looking at 5% vs 3% on matter how you slice it, and you can always swap in Warwolf for JAs and MAs if you really think that 3% matters.

[Lmnop]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Doesn't help that one of "my warriors" is also a Paladin who thinks Enmity paddle gets more hate for her than Joyeuse.

Mindsets are a hard thing to change. That's why I'm gonna have to become my own Armando and level PLD next.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Get me!

While I still have a bit to go my DD gear is for the most part set, making it all fit in macros is the actual hard part. At the moment I'm really just lacking Swift Belt, Organics and Aurum Sabatons/Cuisses, but those will hopefully be coming soon. Well that and getting the last 7 levels and whatnot.

My main deal is that I want my PLD to have capped buffer, and campaign battle is honestly too slow for that. I could easily cap buffer in one party of birds, but it would take weeks of campaign to do it.

[Lmnop]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Maybe for someone geared towards DD, but for high def/vit tanking a 5% increase on a low dmg output (considering that's the increase for A rank skill at lvl 71+) isn't going to do much compared to the added emnity and stats, or at least it doesn't for me.

I use the items that work best with my playstyle, and if I had seen those 10 acc did more than all the Warwolf stats then I would've probably kept using it, but they didn't. Then again, I don't use a parser so who knows.

Either way I feel much more comfortable and manage emnity better with Warwolf, and in the end that's what matters the most to me.

Well think about what Armando said. Let's assume you have cure macros and JA macros that swap belt to Warwolf before the action, a small /wait after the action, and a /equip life belt afterwords. So, the enmity benefits to cures/JAs are cancelled out.

At this point, you're looking at -1 damage taken and 3% more enmity from melee only vs 5% higher damage (and therefore, 5% more enmity and a feel-good feeling for killing slightly faster).

I've been in parties that look like... rdm (or whm -- they perform the same), brdx2, war/ninx3.

I would absolutely love to try tossing a war for a DD built pld and changing the remaining wars to /sam.

I have the Bards, I have the healers, I have the Warriors. I just don't have any PLD friends who are geared good enough to try this.

EDIT: I suppose the +DEX and +STR on Warwolf makes it roughly equal to lifebelt in terms of enmity. Lifebelt will still edge it out in damage but it's obviously not a concern if you're still full turtling.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

While somewhat moot on Colibri at times, even just the faster TP gain can make a difference, even crappily geared(for DD) PLDs will crank out 200~ Swifts(that would be my WS of choice with meh DD gear), it's better than nothing.

Of course all of it's situational, depends on your subjob/what you're doing/what the rest of your gear looks like/etc. Although, even as someone who doesn't merit on PLD, you will still want a reasonable DD set(rather at least an accuracy set) to crank out XP/Notes in campaign, that's honestly the best way to keep PLD buffered. And all your turtle VIT gear still has a use for /DNC Waltzes(PLD/DNC is sweet for campaign at 75).

Edit: Most forums are slow today so I think I'm going to work on writing my 75 PLD macros, lol. Yes, I'm that bored.

[Raydeus]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Warwolf is ok. But +5% hit rate still beats the 3 Enmity/+1 DMG/+1 hit rate/-1 enemy DMG if you ask me. Warwolf could be swapped into spells and JAs if you really wanted to.

Maybe for someone geared towards DD, but for high def/vit tanking a 5% increase on a low dmg output (considering that's the increase for A rank skill at lvl 71+) isn't going to do much compared to the added emnity and stats, or at least it doesn't for me.

I use the items that work best with my playstyle, and if I had seen those 10 acc did more than all the Warwolf stats then I would've probably kept using it, but they didn't. Then again, I don't use a parser so who knows.

Either way I feel much more comfortable and manage emnity better with Warwolf, and in the end that's what matters the most to me.

[Callisto]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Unrelated, Armando I clicked your sig and I've never been more confused in my life.

[Armando]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Warwolf is ok. But +5% hit rate still beats the 3 Enmity/+1 DMG/+1 hit rate/-1 enemy DMG if you ask me. Warwolf could be swapped into spells and JAs if you really wanted to.

[Karinya]

Re: Rumor: Paladin Broken Vitality at 75?

Eww, don't tell me you wore Warrior's Belt +1 over Life Belt ; ;

Warwolf, I would assume. More vit, more enmity, more win.