Put an end to online gil-sellers! Sign the petition!

[Onte]

Originally posted by Outaru
And my agrument back on page one was a legit one, those gil farmers are making money for their poor familes

Your arguement back on page 1 is as legit as the arguement on page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 that "It's wrong because it's against the TOS."

Nice comback, and I played the game a hell of a lot longer than you

ooooooh! Burn! Not. You're not playing the game now and yet still involving yourself in discussions involving players and player issues. You made your cash off the game, you sold off your account and along with that, you sold off your rights to comment and participate in discussions. Until you restart at level 1, I don't think you have room to comment on anything having to do with the game.

[Faust]

Originally posted by Outaru
Dude you flip flop more than John Kerry, let me guess you voted against the petition before you voted for it? :spin:

In all seriousness howmany people that have responded play the same game as you, farm the same spots as you probaly do and have no problem with people guying and selling gil. And quite honestly you know in the back of your mind that this petition will go no where. And my agrument back on page one was a legit one, those gil farmers are making money for their poor familes, I am sorry if that interfers with your farming, but the consesus from all these posts is that your are in a VERY small minority dude.

What the heck was the flip flop comment in reference to? Now you're just getting weird. I've had the same stance since I got in this debate.

You mentioned I had nothing to solidify my point in the debate. A lot of people have mentioned ToS and SOE's comments. I was asking what your point was in saying that considering that nothing's been put down to solidify your part.

I wouldn't be pushing the petition if I didn't think it had a chance to do something so don't presume to know what I'm thinking.

Don't start on the "poor" families shtick again. Legit? Please... "Oh, I HAVE to PLAY a GAME to support my family." THAT has to be one of the stupidest arguments in this whole thing.

[Arkadya]

"The official line is that the selling of characters, items or equipment in EverQuest goes against our end-user licensing agreement," says Sony Online Director of Public Relations Chris Kramer. "It's currently not something the company supports and causes us more customer-service and game-balancing problems than probably anything else that happens within the game."

Kramer adds that Sony Online's objections are based mostly on the idea that such trafficking isn't fair to players who've spent countless hours in the game.

"From a design perspective, our developers don't like it, because essentially what it comes down to is it rewards the rich. It sort of cheapens the experience for people who have invested the time in the game to get to a certain level.

"We have people who have been playing for a number of years in EverQuest," he continues. "They've invested a large number of hours into creating their character, (and) amassing a small fortune in platinum. To have a person who has spent that much time and effort turn around and see someone else who has a character with equal abilities who has done nothing more than buy it on eBay, it turns off a lot of our players."

Since you've posted it 4 or 5 times now, I will respond to this complete and utter bullshit so you will stop bringing it up.

Whoever wrote that is a liar, and an idiot. First off Chris Kramer, whoever the hell that is, was never one of the PR people they ever had deal with the community. I have never ever seen him post on any of the EQ boards that I frequented. I vaguely remember that wired article, and if it came out when I think it did, the EQ PR person at the time was Alan Vancouvering, who's technical title was community relations manager.

Secondly, anyone who tells you that plat selling in Everquest was a problem is a damned idiot. None of the top end gear could be bought. All (yes, all) of the best gear is no drop (ex in ff11), and has been since the very first expansion. The very best you could hope for in EQ was to be completely mediocre if all your gear came from the bazaar. This article might stand up as a defense for account selling is evil (which it is, I will freely admit that selling accounts is a pox on the land, but I don't care, I'd like to get something for all the time I've put in this game), but not gil selling.

Thirdly, who gives a shit what the developer's think? Seriosuly now. These are the same developers that didn't put in a simple yes or no in the translator. The same developers that never ever thought that ninjas would be used as tanks. The same ones that never thought RDM would use gravity to solo HNM's.

Fourthly, again. Everquest TRIED to ban the sales of plat and characters on Ebay. They were taken down for about a year. They're back up now, with a couple of disclaimers about how you can get screwed

For instance, Sony/Verant have been trying to stop online auctions of 'Everquest' items and characters by suing eBay, the online auction site. Sony/Verant was no doubt hoping to scare eBay (and through them, the other auction sites) into taking all Everquest items off their auction lists. In response, some of the player/sellers immediately got together to file a class action lawsuit against Sony & Verant for not allowing users of the game to sell their virtual items for real money (see resources).

*stuff about why account selling is bad that's already been hashed out here*

Because of the lawsuit, eBay took the 'Everquest' items off their site for a short time, but as of this writing, ingame items are back on the auction list. The only changes that has been made seem to be a few disclaimers on some of the Everquest auctions. This puts the ball back in Verant's court, but don't look for a solution anytime soon.

So spare us. SOE is world renowned for having the absolute worst customer service in all of gaming history. You're wasting our time quoting their PR people.

Edit: Source.

One last thing. This site alone, a site completely devoted to FF11, has 44,000 registered members. That's nearly a tenth of the ff11 playerbase. And the best you can do is 363 signatures. Nevermind that this was plastered on the vault, alla, and probably every other major ff11 forum there is.

[Outaru]

Originally posted by Faust
Don't start on the "poor" families shtick again. Legit? Please... "Oh, I HAVE to PLAY a GAME to support my family." THAT has to be one of the stupidest arguments in this whole thing.

Have you meet the actual farmers? Do you know the conditions of their familes? Have you ever been to china, Do you know the average incme of these gil farmers? Until you do STFU.

[Faust]

Originally posted by Arkadya
Since you've posted it 4 or 5 times now, I will respond to this complete and utter bullshit so you will stop bringing it up.

Whoever wrote that is a liar, and an idiot. First off Chris Kramer, whoever the hell that is, was never one of the PR people they ever had deal with the community. I have never ever seen him post on any of the EQ boards that I frequented. I vaguely remember that wired article, and if it came out when I think it did, the EQ PR person at the time was Alan Vancouvering, who's technical title was community relations manager.

Secondly, anyone who tells you that plat selling in Everquest was a problem is a damned idiot. None of the top end gear could be bought. All (yes, all) of the best gear is no drop (ex in ff11), and has been since the very first expansion. The very best you could hope for in EQ was to be completely mediocre if all your gear came from the bazaar. This article might stand up as a defense for account selling is evil (which it is, I will freely admit that selling accounts is a pox on the land, but I don't care, I'd like to get something for all the time I've put in this game), but not gil selling.

Thirdly, who gives a shit what the developer's think? Seriosuly now. These are the same developers that didn't put in a simple yes or no in the translator. The same developers that never ever thought that ninjas would be used as tanks. The same ones that never thought RDM would use gravity to solo HNM's.

Fourthly, again. Everquest TRIED to ban the sales of plat and characters on Ebay. They were taken down for about a year. They're back up now, with a couple of disclaimers about how you can get screwed



So spare us. SOE is world renowned for having the absolute worst customer service in all of gaming history. You're wasting our time quoting their PR people.

Edit: Source.

One last thing. This site alone, a site completely devoted to FF11, has 44,000 registered members. That's nearly a tenth of the ff11 playerbase. And the best you can do is 363 signatures. Nevermind that this was plastered on the vault, alla, and probably every other major ff11 forum there is.

Chris Kramer doesn't cease to exist due to the lack of posting in a board you frequent.

If plat selling in EQ isn't a problem, why is that one of the biggest complaints I hear from people playing the game?

Of course we should care what the developers think. They're the one's that put this game together. They're not perfect, but they're the one's that ultimately make the game. People mention that they're stupid for not programming this, or programming that or they didn't see something would be used in a certain fashion. Then of course they plead to them to fix it, only to call 'em stupid again for when something else comes up.

So we continue the debate.

Oh, on the 44,000 members, how many post? How many are still even around? How many hit the thread and see it or notice the link? Considering that the petition hasn't been up for very long, it seems to be moving along quite nicely.

[Faust]

Originally posted by Outaru
Have you meet the actual farmers? Do you know the conditions of their familes? Have you ever been to china, Do you know the average incme of these gil farmers? Until you do STFU.

You should ask yourself those questions.

[Onte]

Have you meet the actual farmers? Do you know the conditions of their familes? Have you ever been to china, Do you know the average incme of these gil farmers? Until you do STFU.

Hold on a sec, let me get my official "World's Smallest Violin" out of its case and tune it up.

Seriously man, follow your own advise and kindly "STFU".

[bonovoxpsu]

Originally posted by Outaru
Dude you flip flop more than John Kerry, let me guess you voted against the petition before you voted for it? :spin:

In all seriousness howmany people that have responded play the same game as you, farm the same spots as you probaly do and have no problem with people guying and selling gil. And quite honestly you know in the back of your mind that this petition will go no where. And my agrument back on page one was a legit one, those gil farmers are making money for their poor familes, I am sorry if that interfers with your farming, but the consesus from all these posts is that your are in a VERY small minority dude.

some george bush flip flops:

Nation Building - Tells the entire nation in a debate with Al Gore that nation building is a bad idea.

Free Trade - Mr. Free Trade wussies out when it comes to the Steel Industry

Independent 9/11 Commission - refuses to appoint, then does when it's clear how unpopular the decision is.

U.N. Vote On Iraq War - said he would get one, didn't.

Gay Marriage - First he says it's up to the states to decide, then decides we need to change the fucking Constitution for it.

Assault Weapons Ban - First he's for extending it, and now he's against it.

:sweat:

[Faust]

/wave <bonovoxpsu>

[csBahamut]

Whoever wrote that is a liar, and an idiot. First off Chris Kramer, whoever the hell that is, was never one of the PR people they ever had deal with the community. I have never ever seen him post on any of the EQ boards that I frequented. I vaguely remember that wired article, and if it came out when I think it did, the EQ PR person at the time was Alan Vancouvering, who's technical title was community relations manager.

They don't have to be in contact with the players to give out PR information. Do you think executives have time to spend chatting with the players? For a small company, maybe, but for a large one, no way. They have more important things to work on than browse forums to chat with players. There can be many different tiers of managment in larger companies. Just because the name wasn't one you saw in a forum, doesn't mean his statement isn't valid.

Secondly, anyone who tells you that plat selling in Everquest was a problem is a damned idiot. None of the top end gear could be bought. All (yes, all) of the best gear is no drop (ex in ff11), and has been since the very first expansion. The very best you could hope for in EQ was to be completely mediocre if all your gear came from the bazaar.

Hrmmm...now why would gear that could be easily obtained considered 'mediocre'? It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that it could be easily bought(via buying the item, or the game money to purchase it). As of now, a Haubrek or Haubergeon is considered one of the top body pieces for some of the damage dealing classes. Once more people are able to afford this item, either over time due to player base slowing being able to obtain it, or because a large portion of the player base buys gil to purchase it. Once everyone can obtain a good item, it ceases to be 'good' and becomes 'required' or 'mediocre'. Just look at Diablo II once duping went rampant. Unless you had a Windforce, or Grandfather, you had crap for equipment.

I will freely admit that selling accounts is a pox on the land, but I don't care, I'd like to get something for all the time I've put in this game

For the players, this game is NOT an investment. If you were to go sell your character, but right before you do, SE releases a pacth that makes your character and everything your character owns worthless, you can't do anything about it like you could with a real commodity. (On a personal note: You're a greedy bastard!)

Thirdly, who gives a shit what the developer's think? Seriosuly now. These are the same developers that didn't put in a simple yes or no in the translator. The same developers that never ever thought that ninjas would be used as tanks. The same ones that never thought RDM would use gravity to solo HNM's.

There's more players that developers. That's more minds looking for exploits and advantages to use to play than those looking to prevent it from happening. Do you think the writers of the US Constitution considered the effects of computers, automobiles, and airplanes would have? Do you think Alexander Gram Bell thought about telemarketers and prank calls? Do you think Wilbur and Orville Wright thought about running a plane into a building to destroy it? It's impossible to consider everything.

It's SE's game, they can do whatever they want to it. You don't own the game. You own the CD the game data is stored on. You don't own your character. You pay a fee to gain access to data on SE's servers. Doing whatever they want could hurt their profits, but so could doing whatever the players want. They have more experience making games than the players, especially with a game they created. The developers could say the same thing back, "Screw the players, who cares what they think. We'll design the game how we want." You can quit the game or complain, but you can't force them to do anything you want. SE's world, not yours. Their rules, not yours.

Have you meet the actual farmers? Do you know the conditions of their familes? Have you ever been to china, Do you know the average incme of these gil farmers? Until you do STFU.

So why didn't you donate your character to one of these gil farmers so that they could make more money to get themselves out of poverty? Stop faing compassion. You either care, or you don't. Your actions speak louder than your words.


I really suprises me how all these people say they don't care if people buy/sell gil for real money, yet they defend it. You would HAVE to care to even bother posting about it. If you truly didn't care, then you wouldn't care what other people think about this issue and thus wouldn't be posting in support of it. "Actions speak louder than words."

[Scatman]

Originally posted by csBahamut
I really suprises me how all these people say they don't care if people buy/sell gil for real money, yet they defend it. You would HAVE to care to even bother posting about it. If you truly didn't care, then you wouldn't care what other people think about this issue and thus wouldn't be posting in support of it. "Actions speak louder than words."

Heh geez, it seems if you write a post longer than 100 words no one will read it. But like I covered in my other post somewhere earlier on, just because we counter erroneous accusations, does not mean we're defending it. What is this, some kind of forced religion where everyone is either a worshipper or a pagan?

[Outaru]

Originally posted by Onte
Hold on a sec, let me get my official "World's Smallest Violin" out of its case and tune it up.

Seriously man, follow your own advise and kindly "STFU".

what is this parade of the morons today :confused:

Until you know the situation don't assume shit dumbass.

[Arkadya]

I'm in and out between rounds of farming, lot to respond to here.

Chris Kramer doesn't cease to exist due to the lack of posting in a board you frequent.

If plat selling in EQ isn't a problem, why is that one of the biggest complaints I hear from people playing the game?

They don't have to be in contact with the players to give out PR information. Do you think executives have time to spend chatting with the players? For a small company, maybe, but for a large one, no way. They have more important things to work on than browse forums to chat with players. There can be many different tiers of managment in larger companies. Just because the name wasn't one you saw in a forum, doesn't mean his statement isn't valid.

My point isn't that he doesn't exist. My point is that he is a PR flunkie with no knowledge of the game itself. He was given the talking points and told to go be a good soldier for the company agenda.

Nobody in EQ but total idiots ever complained about plat selling. I never heard it in game, and only ever heard it from the same 4 or 5 posters on any forum I ever visited. A lot like how here, it's the same 2 or 3 people. We were too busy worrying about the nerfs, rampant imbalances, piss poor customer service, and expansion after expansion of unfinished content (see: Vex Thal, Rathe council, plane of Time, virtually all of gates of discord).

Cheapens the game? Your game is ruined because someone may have better stuff than you and they didn't work for it? You all do realize that this isn't a competition to see who can be the super uberest right (that's a response to Chris Kramer)?

Of course we should care what the developers think. They're the one's that put this game together. They're not perfect, but they're the one's that ultimately make the game. People mention that they're stupid for not programming this, or programming that or they didn't see something would be used in a certain fashion. Then of course they plead to them to fix it, only to call 'em stupid again for when something else comes up.

There's more players that developers. That's more minds looking for exploits and advantages to use to play than those looking to prevent it from happening. Do you think the writers of the US Constitution considered the effects of computers, automobiles, and airplanes would have? Do you think Alexander Gram Bell thought about telemarketers and prank calls? Do you think Wilbur and Orville Wright thought about running a plane into a building to destroy it? It's impossible to consider everything.

I'm not saying the dev's are stupid (well ok, they are on a couple issues, namely not having seperate servers for NA EU and JP players)), but I am saying that players always bend the rules as the devs envision it. It's been done since EQ, and probably since The Realm. Just because players are doing something the Dev's don't agree with doesn't make it inherently wrong.

As an aside, the framer's did anticipate new technology, they left the constitution very open ended and open to interpretation for that very reason, but that is neither here nor there.

Oh, on the 44,000 members, how many post? How many are still even around? How many hit the thread and see it or notice the link? Considering that the petition hasn't been up for very long, it seems to be moving along quite nicely.

The druid petition (which was done in a forum, not on petitiononline) got to over 100 pages, with over 2k people saying theysupported it. 50 of those pages were in the first couple of days. Your petition is pretty doomed, again because there is no action behind it.

Hrmmm...now why would gear that could be easily obtained considered 'mediocre'? It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that it could be easily bought(via buying the item, or the game money to purchase it). As of now, a Haubrek or Haubergeon is considered one of the top body pieces for some of the damage dealing classes. Once more people are able to afford this item, either over time due to player base slowing being able to obtain it, or because a large portion of the player base buys gil to purchase it. Once everyone can obtain a good item, it ceases to be 'good' and becomes 'required' or 'mediocre'. Just look at Diablo II once duping went rampant. Unless you had a Windforce, or Grandfather, you had crap for equipment.

Wrong. It was mediocre because that's what it was. Here's one of the better breastplates you can buy (from ruins of kunark, the first EQ expansion:http://eq.crgaming.com/data/item.asp?Id=1853

Here's one of the high end item's that drops from a mob now 3 expansions old (shadow of luclin, the third) : http://eq.crgaming.com/data/item.asp?Id=5975

See the massive difference? The bazar in Everquest, since it came out, has only ever really had 3 purposes. To supply the shmucks like me that refused to join raiding guilds with stuff, for tradeskillers to get goods, and to twink the shit out of the next flavor of the month class you might take up levelling. It was never a means for players to aquire powerful equipment. That wasn't the nature of the game.

For the players, this game is NOT an investment. If you were to go sell your character, but right before you do, SE releases a pacth that makes your character and everything your character owns worthless, you can't do anything about it like you could with a real commodity. (On a personal note: You're a greedy bastard!)

But more to the point, the game didn't start out as an investment, I started playign because I was tired of Everquest. Sucked to be me when I found out it was the same game with all the same problems and all the things I hated about EQ.

It's SE's game, they can do whatever they want to it. You don't own the game. You own the CD the game data is stored on. You don't own your character. You pay a fee to gain access to data on SE's servers. Doing whatever they want could hurt their profits, but so could doing whatever the players want. They have more experience making games than the players, especially with a game they created. The developers could say the same thing back, "Screw the players, who cares what they think. We'll design the game how we want." You can quit the game or complain, but you can't force them to do anything you want. SE's world, not yours. Their rules, not yours.

They don't stick to their own rules. And as SOE found out, their silly ToS doesn't really mean a damn thing.

I really suprises me how all these people say they don't care if people buy/sell gil for real money, yet they defend it. You would HAVE to care to even bother posting about it. If you truly didn't care, then you wouldn't care what other people think about this issue and thus wouldn't be posting in support of it. "Actions speak louder than words."

Because I don't care about gil sellers. I do care, though, about you lunkheads possibly maybe denying me $1k+ should you actually be successful.

But more to the point, I can't stand the pure stupid that keeps coming out of this thread.

All anyone ever does is point to the ToS. The ToS is a meaningless docuement. I 'm fairly certain the current thinking is that if it doesn't actually have your handwritten signature on it, it isn't legally binding.

Everyone blames gil selling for rising prices. Nobody seems to realize that the U.S release just about doubled the subscriber base of FF11, and that, if I recall, they've only added 3 servers since then (please correct me if I'm wrong here).

Chart

Are you honestly trying to tell me that the 20 or so gil farmers on any given server are actually the cause of the rise of prices and not the doubling of demand without an increase in supply?

Hell, you want something real to complain about, complain about the people that fishbot. At least gil sellers aren't actually adding new gil into the economy (they almost always camp items that you sell to the AH and not vendor). All the people who have taken up fishing as their primary source of income, bot or not, gil seller or not, are causing massive inflation thanks to them vendoring everything they catch, thus introducing tons and tons of new income into circulation causing the giant inflation problem we have right now.

And lastly, online petitions are inherently retarded. Nobody ever listens to them. Some script kiddie, if he were so inclined, could probably write a script to fill out that petition for him about 7 billion times. And who really takes a petition seriously where some of the signers are l337d00d and princesskitty69?

To be completely honest, I probably never would have even clicked this thread and joined in the fun if there hadn't been an online petition involved. I just can't ignore that level if dumb. Like a moth to the flame...

Edit: Damn BBcode!

[Onte]

Until you know the situation don't assume shit dumbass.

Hey "dumbass", I do know the situation. See, I haven't sold my account and quit the game. I still play! What a concept!

Take note of your sig, dumbass, now GTFO.

[Faust]

Originally posted by Outaru
what is this parade of the morons today :confused:

Until you know the situation don't assume shit dumbass.

You're the authority on the situation?

You realize you're not helping yourself a whole lot...