Put an end to online gil-sellers! Sign the petition!

[Jinxie]

I heard someone say farming isn't fun? OMG I love farming. There's no better feeling than training ten or more gobs and then ending it all with one firaga spell^^...or circle blade for that matter.

[Faust]

Originally posted by Circlezero
I dont see a reason to ban this, I mean the only reason people have to buy gil with real money is because SHIT ON THIS GAME IS SO FUCKING GODDAMN EXPENSIVE! If anything, tell these bastards at Square to lower the prices on everything at the merchants so people dont have to farm for hours, craft for hours, or whatever the case may be. That sounds like a better solution to me, but of course Im probably just some stupid noob.

Okay, something else to think about.

Gil sellers, other than farming like mad, make a lot of the gil that they sell via high priced drops. They camp NMs 24/7 and then sell the drops on AH.

Now stay with me here...

They put something up for a million gil on AH. They sell it and sell the gil back to IGE, who then sells it to someone in game, who then uses it to buy another item for a million gil that's been placed there by a gil seller. The gil is then sold back to IGE and the cycle continues...

Gee, I wonder why things are so expensive? Could it be because gil sellers do the best they can to keep it up there?

Sounds like buyers are being taken left and right.

For all of you who think ToS is crap. It's the rules of the GAME. Hello! The REAL WORLD shtick has been done already. Tell a casino that you don't care about the poker rules when they catch you cheating and see how far you get. It's a GAME!!! Fair play! OMG! New concept!

Since my previous post on the following seems to have been skipped, here's a requote...

From an article on Wired in regards to EverQuest. SE has already made it known that similar views apply to FFXI.

"The official line is that the selling of characters, items or equipment in EverQuest goes against our end-user licensing agreement," says Sony Online Director of Public Relations Chris Kramer. "It's currently not something the company supports and causes us more customer-service and game-balancing problems than probably anything else that happens within the game."

Kramer adds that Sony Online's objections are based mostly on the idea that such trafficking isn't fair to players who've spent countless hours in the game.

"From a design perspective, our developers don't like it, because essentially what it comes down to is it rewards the rich. It sort of cheapens the experience for people who have invested the time in the game to get to a certain level.

"We have people who have been playing for a number of years in EverQuest," he continues. "They've invested a large number of hours into creating their character, (and) amassing a small fortune in platinum. To have a person who has spent that much time and effort turn around and see someone else who has a character with equal abilities who has done nothing more than buy it on eBay, it turns off a lot of our players."

[Outaru]

Originally posted by Faust

For all of you who think ToS is crap. It's the rules of the GAME. Hello! The REAL WORLD shtick has been done already. Tell a casino that you don't care about the poker rules when they catch you cheating and see how far you get. It's a GAME!!! Fair play! OMG! New concept!

LOL told ya

Square really holds that Tos in high reguards I see it being upheld left and right :spin:

[Faust]

Originally posted by Outaru
LOL told ya

Square really holds that Tos in high reguards I see it being upheld left and right :spin:

Wouldn't expect anything less from someone who already stated they didn't care or even plays the game.

[LawDawg]

mmmmmm ok. It still seems we have a problem. The ONLY (bolded for emphasis) argument that people have against Gil selling is that it is against the ToS. Nothing else. What else can you argue?

#1) Competition for farming spots: You act like there was NO competition before these "gil-sellers" came along. And even if there is MORE competition now, it was inevitable anyways. How do you know that if these gil-sellers weren't here, there wouldn't be just the SAME number of farmers? If you think about it, there could be plenty of people "like you" who see these farmers and say "ugh, I guess I'm not farm at so-and-so today". If these gil-sellers left, there would be just the same amount of farmers. There is no evidence to suggest that gil-sellers increase the number of farmers.

#2) Gil-selling affects the economy! Wrong again. How many countless posts do I have to write before people understand this? Gil-sellers who FARM FOR ITEMS (once again bolded for emphasis) do not add more gil to the system. They do NOT increase inflation! Items != gil, unfortunately. In reality, gil-sellers probably help REDUCE the price of more expensive items like moss, seeds, crab meat, etc because they introduce more items into the system, and thus increase the supply (with a constant demand) means lower prices. Sorry, anyone who thinks gil-sellers add GIL to the economy is 100% wrong. Sure they add some from farming beastmen, but statistically, its zero.

#3) Gil-sellers control NMs/items and force the prices up!!! I can't go off of other servers, but from my server (bahamut), this is clearly NOT the case. Yes, its true, Prices ARE going up on some NM items (like boots and kote), but at the same time some NM items are going DOWN or staying the same! (like signa and hairpin). Why is this? First off, gil-sellers can NOT monopolize a wide area NM. Sure, songokou and his mule pretty much can grab 75% of the emporer spawns when they are camping it, but he doesn't raise the price even though he sells about 1/2 the hairpins in the history. If you look at the history for almost all the NM items, there is not a single person with more than 2 sells. Even Archer's Rings, its a bunch of different people... but yet, the price still rises (hmmm, maybe and increased DEMAND, with a constant supply?!). The same with peacock charm... it has risen from 4-6 million in the past month... why? Its not cause of gil-sellers! (I can continue to go into more and more detail on why Gil-sellers can not control NM items, but I think you get the point). Edit: Oh yeah, and I hear the argument that "OMG THOSE GIL-SELLERS AND THEIR WYVERNS MAKE MY L33T /TARGETNPC MACRO NOT WORKZ0RS!! /ANGRY!!" Well, maybe you should rethink your NM claiming abilities, or maybe you should make a petition (lol) telling SE to not have Wyverns be classified as NPCs....

#4) Gil-sellers use bots! and bots are EVILLLLL!!! First off, lets get the facts straight. Using an attended bot is not against the rules. If you disagree with me, so be it, your putting yourself at a disadvantage by following a rule thats not even there (and please don't say 3rd PT program!! having my brother play for me is using a 3rd PT program). So, the only thing that actually HURTs the economy is unattanded botting. It is my personal opinion that SE is fairly good when it comes to unattended botters (fairly as in they can stop 10-20% of them). It is also my opinion that most gil-sellers do not use bots. Please don't come to me and say "well I know so-and-so who uses a bot and sells gil!" Your ancedotal evidence is not welcome here.

That is all. If you can think of any reason why gil-selling is "wrong" BESIDES that its against the ToS, then I'm all ears. But we all RECOGNIZE that its against the ToS, so I don't see the reason to continue to mention it.

[Arkadya]

Originally posted by Faust
Gee, I wonder why things are so expensive? Could it be because gil sellers do the best they can to keep it up there?

Or maybe, and bear with me on this, I know it sounds crazy, it's because there is now roughly twice the demand on high end items that there was when we first started the game? Gil sellers aren't new you know. They've been there since before us NA players started playing the game. But no, it's obviously the effects of the elusive gil sellers, and has absolutely nothing to do with supply and demand (namely how the supply is the same but the demand has doubled) or inflation.

Originally posted by Faust
For all of you who think ToS is crap. It's the rules of the GAME. Hello! The REAL WORLD shtick has been done already. Tell a casino that you don't care about the poker rules when they catch you cheating and see how far you get. It's a GAME!!! Fair play! OMG! New concept!

Conversely, how does the way other people play this game affect you? Afterall you can farm right? You've got all the time in the world to make money. Paying a bit more should mean nothing right? Making money is part of the experience, and is intended to be as slow as it is. Maybe you're too lazy to farm all the good stuff and don't like being in competition with better equipped gil buyers for group spots? Maybe not, I don't know you. Does it piss you off that some gil buyer has the same crap you do and didn't put the time in? Why? Is your e-penis in question?

There are actual real problems that need solving you know. Maybe I'll actually give a damn about vaguely higher AH prices once they fix the end game, the one sidedness of JP GM's, the xenophobic JP playerbase, and they actually manage to make the classes semi somewhat balanced, maybe.

[Faust]

SE has already voiced their opinion on the matter.

As far as competition for farming, yes, there's always going to be competition. However many known gil sellers have an even greater disregard for the ToS and MPK with abandon which I'm sure no one's happy about.

I've already explained a pretty good example of why gil sellers would want to keep the prices on items high. If other people are able to bring them down again, that's great! I hope that trend continues. Currently there aren't enough gil sellers to cover every item, so not everything's going to raise up in price. As more and more people gil sell, you'll see those prices continue to rise and be kept there with the odd few people trying to bring it down again. Don't look at one short period in time in the AH history, take a broader view.

Botting is again, just another form of cheating for people too lazy to do things themselves. I don't care if they're sitting in front of the PC to watch their bot work, still botting, my opinion.

One more time, since people seem to skip this over...

"The official line is that the selling of characters, items or equipment in EverQuest goes against our end-user licensing agreement," says Sony Online Director of Public Relations Chris Kramer. "It's currently not something the company supports and causes us more customer-service and game-balancing problems than probably anything else that happens within the game."

Kramer adds that Sony Online's objections are based mostly on the idea that such trafficking isn't fair to players who've spent countless hours in the game.

"From a design perspective, our developers don't like it, because essentially what it comes down to is it rewards the rich. It sort of cheapens the experience for people who have invested the time in the game to get to a certain level.

"We have people who have been playing for a number of years in EverQuest," he continues. "They've invested a large number of hours into creating their character, (and) amassing a small fortune in platinum. To have a person who has spent that much time and effort turn around and see someone else who has a character with equal abilities who has done nothing more than buy it on eBay, it turns off a lot of our players."

I think they listed a few good reasons themselves and that's coming from SOE.

[LawDawg]

Interesting how the person who said that is the "Director of Public Relations" ... I wonder why. Makes perfect sense actually, send out the Director of Public Relations to make some bullshit comment about SE's stand on gil-selling so the majority thinks SE is actually going to do something about it! A genious plan SE! /clap /clap!

[little ninja]

LAWDAWG you community college chump listen an actually read the whole thing. i made a comment that S.E feels the need to come ingame an inforce certain rules, but fails to inforce other rules. because has someone said earlier. TOS 'its just ass wipes."

i said last post i dont care if i compete against the gil sellers. just like i dont care about competing against other farmers who need there gil. i care when the gil seller trains mobs on me. an atleast does it 2-3 time everytime i farm. this is something the farmers who need the gil have yet to do.


ACTUALLY bots are 3rd party programs. at 1 time it was not allowed. but S.E changed the rules an allowed it as long as you were at your computer. to many jp players doing it for mobs like argus an stuff, an to many fish bots,plus to many gamers kept messaging gms. thats how they combated the bots.. they allowed it.

[Faust]

SE has nothing to lose if they admit to wanting people to gil sell. So why make up a story stating they don't like it? Other companies have stated that they encourage virtual property selling. So there wouldn't be any reason for SE to hide such activity if they wanted it to happen.

[Xyran]

You forgot to mention that, although, SOE does have negative opinions about people who sell/buy currancy for RL money. THEY DONT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

A couple of years ago Sony put a stop to all ebay auctions of anything to do with in game items... why??? Because to many people were complaining to them that they were getting scamed. Origianlly SOE would actually give the person that was complaigning the item they had bought. After "too many" people started filing complaints, many of which probably never was scamed, they decided to take action by stoping online auctions. A large group of people who had been selling items/Plat filed a class action law suit against SOE for prohibiting the sales the resault of which is..... People are once again selling accounts and items for RL money.

The moral of this story is... Square may not like the practice that is going on, but they are not likly to do anything about it.

[Faust]

Was there an article where this was printed? Where did you get the information?

I'm not "challenging" you or anything to back up your claim. I'd just honestly like to see the information itself if it's available.

[Outaru]

Originally posted by Faust
Wouldn't expect anything less from someone who already stated they didn't care or even plays the game.

Nice comback, and I played the game a hell of a lot longer than you, besides what bearing does that have on anything? I still have a lot of friends who play and none of them whine about gil selling. You cannot solidify your agrument other than spouting the ToS or cutting and pasting some other crap.


Dude its

[Faust]

Originally posted by Outaru
Nice comback, and I played the game a hell of a lot longer than you, besides what bearing does that have on anything? I still have a lot of friends who play and none of them whine about gil selling. You cannot solidify your agrument other than spouting the ToS or cutting and pasting some other crap.


Dude its

You haven't had anything to solidify your argument, so what's your point? I've played this game since I got on the PS2 beta when beta first started. Is that supposed to mean anything regarding this argument? At least there's ToS and some information cut/pasted from SOE regarding my part of the argument.

My comment wasn't a "comeback." Like I said, I didn't expect anything less from you for reasons stated. If this is so to you, then go out and get some sunshine or something.

[Outaru]

Originally posted by Faust
You haven't had anything to solidify your argument, so what's your point? I've played this game since I got on the PS2 beta when beta first started. Is that supposed to mean anything regarding this argument? At least there's ToS and some information cut/pasted from SOE regarding my part of the argument.

My comment wasn't a "comeback." Like I said, I didn't expect anything less from you for reasons stated. If this is so to you, then go out and get some sunshine or something.

Dude you flip flop more than John Kerry, let me guess you voted against the petition before you voted for it? :spin:

In all seriousness howmany people that have responded play the same game as you, farm the same spots as you probaly do and have no problem with people guying and selling gil. And quite honestly you know in the back of your mind that this petition will go no where. And my agrument back on page one was a legit one, those gil farmers are making money for their poor familes, I am sorry if that interfers with your farming, but the consesus from all these posts is that your are in a VERY small minority dude.