Put an end to online gil-sellers! Sign the petition!

[Scatman]

Well multi-paragraph posts obviously don't get read, so let's just go point form, so even those with an attention deficit disorder can try to understand. (Several have already posted the same points, so I know we're just going around in circles now, but eh, whatever.)

1) It's none of our business. S-E made the rules, S-E enforces them if they can. If they can't or won't, guess what, we're SOL. Since everyone's an expert, tell S-E what they should do. Ban the ones that admit to being a farmer? Ban the ones that have obvious names? Yes, short-sighted solutions are the best. All's good in Vana'diel again, right? SURPRISE, the next wave of them use different names and clam up, feigning to be regular players. Now what? Start banning any farmer that farms for an extended period of time? Implement curfews? Let me reiterate. They made the rules. They enforce at their discretion.

(Hurray for backseat drivers!)


2) The so-called "defenders" of the gil-sellers aren't defending them. They're saying the gil-sellers have a negligible impact on the other players around them. That is not to say it's justified, but it's not really our concern. For those who are particularly dense, I AM NOT DEFENDING GIL-TRADING, but I can't do anything about it. Inaccurate projections about impending doomsday in the market only shows ignorance.


3) Gil-sellers aren't magically pulling gil out of their asses. They get it from the game, and ANY player can do the same, therefore they cannot possibly ruin the economy by themselves. Someone compared it to duping in Diablo 2. Uh big difference. Duping = instantaneous free copy of an item, whereas farming 24/7 regardless of who it's done by, or what it's for, remains a legit source. The AH is a free-market. You cannot ruin a free-market. On second thought, I don't think I've even heard anyone define a "ruined economy". It just sounds like any time the price of an item increases, that means the entire economy is ruined, even when it's due to a natural cause (look up the term "demographics" some time. The term single-handedly explains half your "economy ruining" events).


4) Gil-sellers have a right to farm any area they want to as well as anyone else, regardless of their intentions. While we're on the topic of petitions, find one person from each state on these forums, and start up a petition for your local department of transportation. Tell them to get law-enforcement to start enforcing the rules more strictly, because people are exceeding the speed limit, breaking the law, and therefore do not deserve to share the same highway. Then return and tell us how seriously they took it.


5) As LawDawg already said, if you've been MPKed, blame the mechanics for allowing it to happen. Complain about the MPKing. I've had intentional trains drawn to me before, by regular hunters just out of spite. Don't confound issues, as there is no real correlation between gil-sellers and MPKing. Looking back at the highway analogy, MPKing becomes a danger to others in the area...that we can compare to say drinking and driving. Does that mean everyone who exceeds the speed limit is drunk? Does that mean that now speeding should be a criminal case? No, they're separate issues that can potentially go hand-in-hand, but nonetheless cannot be categorized as one.

[vudoodoodoo]

Online petitions make me laugh.

[Faust]

LOL

I'm actually not going to add much more to this. Not that I don't mind the debate, in fact I quite enjoy it, but I'm just going to end up repeating a lot of the things I've already posted.

I am seeing good points on BOTH sides... I guess I'm agreeing to the fact that we just don't agree.

Am I conceiding anything? No. Like I said, for me to continue would be just to repeat stuff I've already repeated. I'm still holding to my views and I'm gonna continue with my letters, the petition that is at the top of this thread, various other types of contact with SE, and hope that things get better for EVERYONE in the game.

Just something to respond to the latest point that I don't think I've answered yet:

Sure, there are a LOT of great people in game. It's always a joy to find someone that's helpful, and will even go out of their way just to throw a cure and a raise. I apologize and I guess I shouldn't lump gil sellers in one big pot of "MPKers," it's just that I only see the problem getting worse as more people start to take advanatage of the game. Sure, there are people that sell gil and can be the nicest people in the world, but there are also a lot of people getting into the act that could care less and will do whatever they want regardless of the rules. Be glad if you haven't run into what I have. Like I mentioned before, it may not be that great a problem now, but I feel that something needs to be done before it becomes worse. So I'm doing and will continue what I'm doing.

I think that's about it... Heh, typed more than I planned on.

Oh, and one thing I strongly agree with... Thank you Arkadya.

Originally posted by Arkadya
Whoo, because violence is ALWAYS better than spirited debate.

Yes, I am fully aware that I will not change the minds of the people who are actually bothering to respond. Are you aware that there actually are people undecided on this particular issue who read this thread and might be swayed to one side or the other by reading what is posted here? Not everyone is a close-minded jackaninny. I have had my opinion swayed on several things after reading some excellent arguements. Just because you're opinions are set in stone and will never be swayed unless they are beaten into a new position does not mean everyone is like that.

So hard to remember that personal attacks only ever actually make the attacker look like an ass.

I might not have said it the same exact way, but I think you make your point quite nicely.

[Machiko]

Originally posted by Arkadya
Whoo, because violence is ALWAYS better than spirited debate.

Yes, I am fully aware that I will not change the minds of the people who are actually bothering to respond. Are you aware that there actually are people undecided on this particular issue who read this thread and might be swayed to one side or the other by reading what is posted here? Not everyone is a close-minded jackaninny. I have had my opinion swayed on several things after reading some excellent arguements. Just because you're opinions are set in stone and will never be swayed unless they are beaten into a new position does not mean everyone is like that.

So hard to remember that personal attacks only ever actually make the attacker look like an ass.

Hell yes violence is always better. Look at law enforcement and gang wars! Whee!
Anyways, it's obvious that this petition won't work, so why is this topic here?

Oh, what I was trying to say earlier was. Get off your chair, go smell some roses, go to amusement parks with your friends. It's summer, stop writing essays online.

[LawDawg]

Originally posted by Machiko
Hell yes violence is always better. Look at law enforcement and gang wars! Whee!
Anyways, it's obvious that this petition won't work, so why is this topic here?

Oh, what I was trying to say earlier was. Get off your chair, go smell some roses, go to amusement parks with your friends. It's summer, stop writing essays online.

sorry, we can't all have a "life" like you when we have something called WORK. why don't you get off your lazy butt and get a 40 hr/wk job... oh wait, youre probably only 13.

[Eden]

so >.> what's wrong with this picture...

first thing I noticed when I clicked on the link (*hint* look at the ad.)

[Arkadya]

:spin: :spin: :spin:

Those wacky google ads, always a source for delicious irony.

[Onte]

Originally posted by Machiko
Get off your chair, go smell some roses, go to amusement parks with your friends. It's summer, stop writing essays online.

Some of us type 60+ wpm. It doesn't take all of us 3 1/2 hours to type out the "essays" to which you're referring.

And let those of us working at a desk 40 hours a week how those amusement parks are.

[Machiko]

Originally posted by LawDawg
sorry, we can't all have a "life" like you when we have something called WORK. why don't you get off your lazy butt and get a 40 hr/wk job... oh wait, youre probably only 13.

It's summer right now. I'm in second year U at University of Toronto. When it starts again I wouldn't be posting here. You're most likely 13 because you're insecure of whatever age you are to the point where you had to use an age insult so you could feel secure with your maturity. Oh and for the record, I type 80 - 100 WPM depending on how the paragraphs are forming in my head. Sometimes a lot slower because I'm not sure what to type for essays. What I'm talking about is it taking like 30 minutes - 1 hour because you have to organize mind. And if not, ok congrats your a smart ass. Put that brain to use instead of wasting it here.

Anyways, LawDawg don't use age insults again. I have nothing against you but if you continue I will. Good day.

[little ninja]

i feel the same way as one of the above posters. it is not that i am siding with the pro gil sellers. its just that no matter what one says, another side can easily come back with.


1. you really cant raise prices on items, all this will do is make them harder to obtain by the people who earn there gil legit.. an make the people who buy gil, spend even more money..


2. an since when did "trying to be the best you can be" become soo frowned apon. maybe its the gil buyers with the notion. that everyone should do the work for them.. or being satisfied with shit done half ass. in game, as in real life.


3. gil buyers/gil sellers do effect the economy. no matter if it is small, or some huge figure. not only that it effects crafts, pts.. not only can i buy a million gil online, put it into a craft. corner the market on that one craft. or i can take that million gil an buy haubergeon. an people will notice what ubber gear i have when we pt an thus may invite me next time they see me seeking.

"the smallest stream can make a canyon." "an the lightest breeze can carve a mountain" all it takes is time...............

[LawDawg]

Originally posted by Machiko
You're most likely 13 because you're insecure of whatever age you are to the point where you had to use an age insult so you could feel secure with your maturity.

Anyways, LawDawg don't use age insults again. I have nothing against you but if you continue I will. Good day.

ironic isn't it? Good job e-thug. Keep telling us about your real life cause we really care. It's sad that you feel "threatened" by comments made on a online message board. But I guess you want people to comment you on your awesome typing skills and GASP, your attendence at University of Toronto! WOW! You are so smart! you can get into college!! lol.

[kevinsal]

Point Blank,

Gil selling has ruined the game. There is no point in playing, someone can buy an account better than yours at the click of a button.. there is no competition, only with the gil sellers hunting the big drops..

And this is why I am done with this game

[kevinsal]

Point Blank,

Gil selling has ruined the game. There is no point in playing, someone can buy an account better than yours at the click of a button.. there is no competition, only with the gil sellers hunting the big drops..

And this is why I am done with this game

Someone delete my double post

[Arkadya]

Originally posted by kevinsal
Point Blank,

Gil selling has ruined the game. There is no point in playing, someone can buy an account better than yours at the click of a button.. , there is no competition only with the gil sellers hunting the big drops..

And this is why I am done with this game

Tell that to the NA HNM ls's who have the pleasure of having HNMS spawning claimed.

At any rate, gil sellers didn't ruin shit. You're obviously pro PvP, this isn't and was never meant to be a PvP game. The token PvP they have in ballista is just bait to keep bored 75's playing,

[FrustratedMiner]

I think I can agree with the assertion that gil selling does not significantly affect the in-game economy per se given their methods at this time. It does however, in my opinion, create a trickle down effect that creates an atmosphere which makes it harder for players below lvl 50 to make gil. The worry I have is if IGE used more sophisticated methods (i.e. stuff that requires a decent amount of capital investment). they could possibly have a greater and noticeable affect on the economy (albeit still small compared to the entire economy overall) .

There are X amount of opportunities total in the game to make gil off of. There are only so many mines, so many areas to log, so many markets to buy low/sell high, areas to kill monsters for drops, NM's to hunt, etc. Not all players have access to every opportunity be it because of lvl, capital, job, etc. Now fill lower level areas/mines/logging areas with gilsellers and that lowers the potential/opportunity for said players to earn gil. While this does not hurt the economy per se since these opportunities are still being utilized presumably to their limit (# of miners before ppl leave in disgust at inability to mine profitably) the displacement of players under a certain lvl or the lowering of their ability to earn gil stunts their ability to get the equipment.

I think it depends how "big" the problem is. If 10% of people online at any given time are earning gil to sell, then it is probably a significant enough problem to, not affect the price on any given item significantly or for a significant amount of time because of the numerous market forces, but affects the ability to earn gil that it stalls the economy in as much as certain players will take longer to aquire the wealth to purchase the same items because they have less opportunity to aquire the same amount of wealth they would have sans the gilsellers taking up said opportunities. However, once a player advances beyond 'IGE' turf, one can avoid them altogether by utilizing opportunities they cannot.

Are all players affected? No. The higher level you are, the more opportunities you have to make gil and presumably more capital accrumulated to invest in things that IGE presumably doesn't dabble in (crafts, AH buying/selling of commodies). The newer you are, the more you are affected, except for maybe lvls 1-15 if you do not attempt to utilize, say low lvl mining or logging areas, etc. Post 50 (not sure I am only 30something, but most of the gilsellers Ive seen seem to stop lvling at 50 and dont seek advantages such as airship) it would seem that little to no opportunities are/can be dominated by them as far as high lvl area farming/logging/mining/fishing, etc. Also, opportunities such as HNM hunting (which someone else mentioned) will never be utilized by IGE as it takes too much effort, time, and manpower.

What about the players that enjoy mining or logging or fishing? These are the players probably the most affected and therefore usually the most resentful. Why? Because the activity to them is more than just making gil. It is the gambling aspect of the game or just an end in and of itself...they want to mine 5 darksteel ores that day or whatever. The problem is, they have to compete with someone who would not exist if there was either 1. strict enforcement of SE policy 2. no demand for gil AND these people spend alot of time on the given activity and to some extent are discourteous to other players (i'd argue that gilsellers would not be percieved as much of a problem if they did not use grief tactics). I don't see either of these coming to pass. And the number of people that would quit over lack of enjoyment of having to compete with gilsellers over an activity they enjoy is most likely less than the number of paying IGE accounts...its just a matter of positive displacement...which on the whole benefits SE.

One danger would be if IGE took more sophisticated approaches to acquiring gil rather than by what seems to be brute force farming/mining/what have you OR just amped up their brute force methods and got into end game farming areas. They could also presumably leverage gil on every server on small market/ big ticket items that cannot be crafted and spike them and resell for higher. This could lead to the same bottleneck on the economy described above, but instead affecting lvl 65-75 players just coming up to those levels needing more time to earn the same amount of gil to buy things for the same price. People will just take longer to advance, which is again good for SE. This probably will never be utilized however due to what seems to me a '1gil in hand now is worth more than 2gil in the bush' approach (presumably they don't want to tie up gil to be able to meet customer orders). Amping up the lvl of the areas they farm would probably make the average length of an account life shorter by speeding up the time ppl who max out their lvl will quit because their end game experience is even more limited by competition by players who's only goal is to aquire/sell gil. Would that hurt IGE or SE? I don't know how many end game players buy gil or what is the average 'profile' of a gilbuyer.

On the whole, I don't think IGE could/would ever put the numbers on any given server needed to significantly impact gameplay. They wouldn't because it would be shooting themselves in the foot by devaluing the very thing they sell, gil. And even if they did they would quickly lower their numbers to not waste their resources. And I say they couldn't because it would take about 200 people on every server (guessing) continuously to start making a significant difference on the ability to earn gil by monopolizing enough areas to make a difference.

/rant
I still hate 'em though. Not the people personally (well maybe the one's that happen to be jerks) but IGE for affecting the integrity of a game I like. It's one thing to be beat by a person that wants to make their character better, it's another to get griefed/beaten by someone in an activity you like who's sole purpose is to earn gil for a group of people to sell to someone.
/end rant
(yes, this took some time)