What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

That's almost what I'm asking you. More like, "Why is so much suffering intrinsic to the natural world?" I might recognize that in choosing to eat meat I am inflicting suffering on an animal and choose to do so anyway, and you could argue that suffering was brought about by a misuse of my free will, but the lion, even if it was cognizant of that, doesn't have the option of preparing tofu and lentils. It must inflict suffering on a regular basis or visit suffering upon itself. It doesn't seem to be the kind of system a loving God who would ostensibly abhor suffering would create. You can always invoke the inscrutability of the mind of God and be rhetorically unassailable as far as I'm concerned, but I was hoping you or someone else had some perspective that was more intellectually satisfying.

Much of the counterpoint to religion often seems to be "If God exists, why does he allow [X thing I wouldn't allow] to happen?"

If belief in a god requires said deity to assume your viewpoint on everything, then we have an incredibly flimsy and anemic deity on our hands. Who's gong to worship a cosmic yes man?

Why is there suffering in the world? Well. God said don't touch the hot stove and then some snake told the little girl to touch it and dared the boy to do it, too. Then God showed up and wondered why they had bandages on covering the burns. God told them "This is why we can't have nice things, take your free will and apply it elsewhere" and told them to stay out of the kitchen forever.

Then when they got older there were all these kids who didn't listen to them about how God wouldn't let them back in the kitchen and they had to learn all this stuff for themselves, all because they thought they knew better.

And those kids thought they knew better, too. Grandma and Grandpa told them all not to build a tower because it will never reach heaven. But when they came home the next day all the furniture and stuff was stacked up and nailed together and went pretty high, They never got it done because God didn't care for that kind of arrogance and suddenly Claude was speaking French and Kim was scrawling Chinese on the driveway in chalk.

Those kids grew up, formed nations and just couldn't get along. God said for them to stop or he would turn this car around. But they wouldn't stop and he just got tired of saying it, so he told Noah to get his family, build a big-ass boat and load up the thing with a zoo of critters. He told Noah,"Leave the fish, they'll be fine where the are and to bring a fishing rod because you can't eat the animals on the boat, Yeah, sorry, not steak or poultry on this cruise, just seafood for 40 days and 40 nights."

The flood subsided and new generations were born and established. New cultures came along, built pyramids and shit. Some guys in Egypt decided that Jews made nice slaves and people to kill and God didn't like that, so he told this guy Moses to free them, gave him all these neat tricks to scare the Pharoah into letting the Jews go.

And then when he got them out, they came to an ocean, the Pharoah apparently changed his mind and chased them. In a miracle that should have prevented anyone from second-guessing God, the seas parted so the Jews could safely cross and when they got through, the sea returned to normal and swept away those guys wearing mascara.

Then there was some time where the set up camp, God issued some sensible rules that they should follow if they want to make it to new home in a timely fashion, things like "don't bang the neighbor's wife, don't kill each others and don't make a golden cow to worship as I don't look like that" and wouldn't you know it?

When Moses got down there with those rules, wives were being coveted, people were stabbing each other and people were worshipping some golden cow they made. He showed them the rules and asked them why the were doing these things.

They were like, "Duh. Winning."

Moses was like "Fuck it," and threw down the roles and went and sobbed somewhere.

But they still wanted Moses to take him to their new home, at some point even Moses considered God a backseat driver and they all got lost. Moses never got to the new house, though those that actually listened to the Tom Tom God gave them did.

And when they got there, they had kids and those kids thought they knew better. They touched that hot stovetop, too.

And that's my abridged, slightly modernized version of the Torah.

So people always think the know better and assume God thinks like they do. I think that's why there's suffering in the world. Just look at any war ever, people always think their deity is on their side somehow. That's just so convenient.

If I'm to assume God is an intelligent, sentient being, He's going to have to disagree with me at some point. I still have the option of just doing whatever I want, there's no stopping volition.

And in some cases the burns are just going to happen anyway, I don't get to Pass Go and collect $200 all the time because of faith. Shit happens. The world's done its best to take me out and ruin me. I can pretend to ignore that fact or use it to better myself or I can be an arrogant SOB and expect God to do things my way all the time and hate him if he doesn't.

If I believe God is a loving being, why would He shelter me? Free will means I have a choice and I do. I have to go out in that world where shit's just going to happen. If he just conforms to my concept of God should be, he's not God. If I'm constantly protected for doing what he says, I don't have free will. And if I don't know free will, there isn't a hope in hell I'll know what love or compassion are.

How can love or compassion even exist if there is no suffering?

------------

This got a bit long, but as animals go. I don't think they know suffering, that's just a human concept thrust upon them. They don't live in fear of death because they have no concept of the fear of death. They do have intelligence and emotion, but where you see suffering they just see an obstacle of hindrance to survival or the end of life. Those that become domesticated understand you will aid them in survival and for that they grant you loyalty and affection until that end.

They don't know about gods, if you have a pet, you practically are a god to them and they hope they can be more like you. They gain their sense of right and wrong from your training of them. In that sense, they are only as good or bad as you are, but they don't know those things either

Except when you're around. They only know shitting the carpet is bad if you see it and its the one thing you'd prefer they didn't do.

And personally, I don't think there's a hell for animals. They don't know about God, so why would they go to hell? Again, they're only "bad" if humans make them that way. They don't know what "bad" is save for what humans tell them.

If domesticated, they hope you're always on their side. If not domesticated, they hope you don't meddle too much in their habitat and you do the best you can to watch out for the deer at night, not poke bee hives or attract the attention of or provoke bears, lions or sharks.

God might have made us smarter than bears, but he didn't make us strong enough regarding them to prove Darwin wrong when it comes to a one-on-one encounter. Even shotguns might not be enough, despite what video games and Youtube teach us about their effectiveness.

OK, I'm done

[Armando]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

Assuming God loves all his creations and that He has the ability to create a heavenly world where there is only bliss and no suffering, why not just create everything that way?

That's not all that different from being immaterial beings no real needs, since the only way to have no suffering is to either have no needs or have your needs always be met. If you wanted to achieve that with mortal people, there's only two ways:
1) Have God make us without free will and program us all to get along
2) Give us free will and wait for thousands of years (hopefully. We could always wipe each other out before achieving utopia.)

Assuming there's a God, creating us without free will would be boring for him. (I assume if he made us it's because being The Only Thing In Existence gets old after a while.) We'd be little more than action figures, since we'd ultimately do only what he/she/it wills us to do.

[DakAttack]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

I think it was well put, but it doesn't really get at what I was trying to address. Let me maybe reframe my question in a way that's more direct and less loaded. To me loving someone or something incorporates a desire to minimize the suffering of your loved one. Assuming God loves all his creations and that He has the ability to create a heavenly world where there is only bliss and no suffering, why not just create everything that way?

That seems more answerable and more like it would produce interesting answers.

Genesis details the Garden of Eden, which sounds like the place of bliss you're referring to. Even if it does exist, we would be too busy dissecting and understanding it to recognize it. I suppose that's the point.

[Taskmage]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

I think it was well put, but it doesn't really get at what I was trying to address. Let me maybe reframe my question in a way that's more direct and less loaded. To me loving someone or something incorporates a desire to minimize the suffering of your loved one. Assuming God loves all his creations and that He has the ability to create a heavenly world where there is only bliss and no suffering, why not just create everything that way?

That seems more answerable and more like it would produce interesting answers.

[Armando]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

I've been busy as fuck today which is why I haven't been responding. I maintain my position that a human can't really know if what they're feeling is God or not, but many of you have convinced me that thinking you felt God someplace or some time isn't an unreasonable position.

That's almost what I'm asking you. More like, "Why is so much suffering intrinsic to the natural world?" I might recognize that in choosing to eat meat I am inflicting suffering on an animal and choose to do so anyway, and you could argue that suffering was brought about by a misuse of my free will, but the lion, even if it was cognizant of that, doesn't have the option of preparing tofu and lentils. It must inflict suffering on a regular basis or visit suffering upon itself. It doesn't seem to be the kind of system a loving God who would ostensibly abhor suffering would create. You can always invoke the inscrutability of the mind of God and be rhetorically unassailable as far as I'm concerned, but I was hoping you or someone else had some perspective that was more intellectually satisfying.

Let me take a stab at it:
1) Without natural deaths, the world would quickly overpopulate. The only solution that problem is to somehow limit the ability of living beings to procreate, or to be immaterial beings that don't require food, water, air, shelter, sleep, and medicine.
2) Being immaterial beings would take the meaning out of life. E.g. Sharing loses meaning when there's nothing that anyone needs. Happiness loses meaning when there's never any hardship. Basically, there's little to learn or experience if we were "just souls." If you agree with that then we've established that both death and material needs are necessary for life to have meaning.
3) Moving on to the lion and the gazelle...that's the natural consquence of a universe that evolves. In a universe with death, the only way the problem of the lion and the gazelle wouldn't exist is if, when life began, all life-forms were perfectly suited for the environment, the quantity of lifeforms was perfectly balanced for the amount of resources available, and the environment didn't change significantly over time. Basically if the universe was static. But that's not how the universe was made. Lifeforms took on as many shapes as they could in an attempt to further their chances of survival. Some lifeforms were killed off, and a balance was struck between those that remained. The lion and the gazelle are part of that balance.

I don't know if that makes sense to you. That's the best I could come up with to answer such a loaded question. I know I make some assumptions here and there but I didn't want to turn this into a wall of text.

[Taskmage]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)



It's just not a thread without ponies, is it?

[Firewind]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

That's almost what I'm asking you. More like, "Why is so much suffering intrinsic to the natural world?" I might recognize that in choosing to eat meat I am inflicting suffering on an animal and choose to do so anyway, and you could argue that suffering was brought about by a misuse of my free will, but the lion, even if it was cognizant of that, doesn't have the option of preparing tofu and lentils. It must inflict suffering on a regular basis or visit suffering upon itself. It doesn't seem to be the kind of system a loving God who would ostensibly abhor suffering would create. You can always invoke the inscrutability of the mind of God and be rhetorically unassailable as far as I'm concerned, but I was hoping you or someone else had some perspective that was more intellectually satisfying.

That proves it, God is really a troll like Celestia

[Taskmage]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

Concerning the atrocities of natural disasters and disease, I believe that those came pre-packaged with the nature that God created, similar to the dilemma of the lion and gazelle. You might as well be asking me "why is there death at all," as far as I'm concerned.

That's almost what I'm asking you. More like, "Why is so much suffering intrinsic to the natural world?" I might recognize that in choosing to eat meat I am inflicting suffering on an animal and choose to do so anyway, and you could argue that suffering was brought about by a misuse of my free will, but the lion, even if it was cognizant of that, doesn't have the option of preparing tofu and lentils. It must inflict suffering on a regular basis or visit suffering upon itself. It doesn't seem to be the kind of system a loving God who would ostensibly abhor suffering would create. You can always invoke the inscrutability of the mind of God and be rhetorically unassailable as far as I'm concerned, but I was hoping you or someone else had some perspective that was more intellectually satisfying.

[Taskmage]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

Breaking the flow just for a moment. This is a topic that's more sensitive that most, and as such it is especially important that we remain respectful of other posters, especially those with differing beliefs. As Aks said in the OP, if you don't believe it, say that. You disagree, say that. You think it's stupid? DON'T SAY THAT. Please be careful with your wording and avoid making insulting statements or implications about other members. I have no problem in this context with removing posts that disregard that.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

"Feeling god in that place" as an idea, happens when i see people from all walks of life united in a task that helps someone or gives encouragement to someone.

I look back at the time where my parents, two lesbian co-workers, some friends and a preacher and his wife I had only just met the weekend prior joining in prayer for my recovery in the hospital to be one of those moments.

I expected my parents to be there when I got smacked by that SUV - well, when I was conscious and coherent, anyway. Everyone else I couldn't predict and couldn't be sure word carried that far, though I did make the newspapers on that, I think. Somewhere in the back pages of local news.

I can't really ever say I felt it specifically within a church building. It may be considered "God's House" but given the whole omnipotent/omnipresent thing, I think it can happen plenty of other places. If people think the church down the street is reason enough to behave better, I'll take it, though I don't think it makes God watch harder.

I think I've felt it more in the mountains, though maybe it was just that the air was cleaner and the wonder of nature played a role in it as well. That and getting away from the cities and the plains does bring a sense of majesty to anything.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

YM, I kindof get what you're doing by keeping it all in one post, but it does make your continued contributions to the thread hard to notice. I wouldn't have read this addition if I wasn't bored poking through profiles and saw you modifying the post. To your point, what do you say to causes of suffering that have little connection to free will, such as natural disaster and disease?

Thank you for pointing this out, and I'll take note to make additional posts whenever I think of something else worthwhile. (I was thinking about mentioning how I feel "holy war" is very much an oxymoron, but I was going to sleep at the time.)

Concerning the atrocities of natural disasters and disease, I believe that those came pre-packaged with the nature that God created, similar to the dilemma of the lion and gazelle. You might as well be asking me "why is there death at all," as far as I'm concerned.

Terrible things happen, but I do believe that, ultimately, the greater good prevails. To give additional meaning to an old motto, amor vincit omnia.

----

(On a side note, I also happen to believe that, as of late, the world just has way too many dang people on it, and this has some influence over some of my beliefs. If I'm a terrible person for it, so be it, but I do maintain that this is no excuse to be a jerk to people who are already here.)

[NightShayde]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

To me saying "I felt God in that place" makes no sense though. Taking the Christian point of view, God is everywhere. If he's not, I don't think he's going to take interest in me and make a guest appearance either.

It could just be me ... but I interpret that a little differently. It's not so much feeling that God is in only one place ("that" place), as much as it is being more keenly aware of God's presence -- like he's always there, but you just sort of notice it all of a sudden ... like if a co-worker is standing behind your chair for a couple of minutes (trying not to laugh) before you realize there's someone right behind you. Or when you're so focused on reading a book/working on something on the computer that you completely tune out everything else around you -- then suddenly realize someone in the room is asking you a question (or not all that long ago you might have realized that the TV programming has ended for the night & gone to static).

As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm an atheist-leaning agnostic -- but there are a few places where I've felt the presence of "something," which often manifests itself in a feeling of warmth, comfort & calm. Sometimes it's in a church (though I don't think the church has anything to do with it) like Sacre Coeur in Paris. Sometimes it's standing in a little glen in an Alaskan rain forest, listening to the water droplets hitting the rocks & trees. It's not necessarily the presence of God -- but maybe the presence of some sort of "good" (for lack of a better term) energy. There are some people I know who put off that same kind of energy.

I've also been in the presence of people who send shivers down my spine in a really bad creepy way. I don't think that's the presence of the devil or any sort of demon -- but I certainly think it could be some sort of dark, evil energy.

[bookwyrm]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

Delurking to state an opinion....

Reason is what sets humanity apart from other creatures (to the best of my knowledge). To that end, one who denies reason denies their humanity.

If, indeed, God created humanity, then to deny one's own humanity is to turn one's back on God. If there is no God, then denying your humanity is still an act of self-hatred and hatred of one's fellow human.

As such, whether there is or is not a God is irrelevant, end action is the same.

If I were a God and I wasn't going to make myself unequivocally known, I, too, would design a system where belief in me was unnecessary. After all, to pull a quote from earlier:

As Marcus Aurelius said, "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

[Aksannyi]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

To me, I feel as though God is indeed everywhere, but that sometimes you're just going to be more receptive/open to feeling him. When I'm driving to work, for example, I'm caught up in "WTF is this fuckhole doing?" and I'm generally not in tune with anything higher than trying to keep myself from getting in an accident.

Not saying that's always the case, but I find God most often when I'm vulnerable and in pain, personally. I don't find him at work, because I'm busy working. Though sometimes when it's quiet and my misery starts to seep in, I'll feel as though I'm not 100% alone. This is the best thing, when I'm not completely sucked into my misery. If I happen to fall into the hole again, it's generally too late, though at even the worst of times, I'll still reach out to God, feeling as though he is the only "person" (for lack of a better term) I have left. (Even taking away from the fact that I know there are people who care about me, on my darkest days, there is nothing you can say to me that will make me believe that.)

As for how to describe the feeling of God being with me, I can't really describe that feeling. Mostly because it manifests in different ways. Sometimes I feel a presence, sometimes I feel like I'm talking to the wind. Sometimes it's as though there's a warmth around me, sometimes I just feel at peace. And sometimes I still look up to the sky and wonder if I'm being heard at all. And 99% of the time, I feel like God's hackey sack that has been kicked around so many times it's starting to lose some of the beans inside. But I still believe he's there ... can't explain that, I suppose, but if I didn't have God, sometimes, I'd feel like I have no one.

Slight tangent, I guess, but that's the best answer I can really give.

[Taskmage]

Re: What do you believe? (RELIGION THREAD. **NO BASHING**)

To me saying "I felt God in that place" makes no sense though. Taking the Christian point of view, God is everywhere. If he's not, I don't think he's going to take interest in me and make a guest appearance either.

I see where you're coming from, but think of it like this: When something is everywhere we become desensitized to its presence. We only really become aware of the air when the wind blows, and in certain places it's much easier to encounter that feeling. If God exists, is omnipresent, and is perceptible by humans, it makes sense that the sensation of numinous would behave the same way.