2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

You not liking something does not make it an exploit, or broken. I strongly oppose gear swaps, at least with how easy they are now, but they aren't an exploit. They're clearly something that the developers intended to happen. It's clearly something they have no problem with.

[Balfree]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Truth be told, once people find the best way to do it, none of this will stop them from killing it.

[Lmnop]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

If people don't want to devote 5 hours to a task...they don't have to. Why is that even an issue, no one's forced to fight AV and as people have said already his drops "aren't that great".

I apologize. That wasn't my point. The point is, good game design doesn't try to piss off as many players as possible. Players realize that a 20 hour swap-tactic isn't much skill involved. And it's true that I'm not everyone but it doesn't matter because... get this. I'm in the vast majority. As developers, they should aim for event times that appeal to the majority of their customers. And this would feasibly fall in the 2-5 hour bracket for any given event.

It's ok for 95% of the player base to say "I don't care to invest in a relic" because we're happy with how they pulled it off. Sure it has some problems (the vulnerability to RMT, namely) but for the most part, it's good game design.

Meanwhile, 95% of the player base hates Absolute Virtue. Because it was not good game design. The end.

[Mhurron]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Good game design also doesn't ignore the 5% that have no problem with AV. The vast majority of the game is nothing like the Absolute Virtue battle, one mob was created for a small group that want to kill it.

You might not have noticed, but there are a lot of mobs in Final Fantasy. They don't all have to act the same way.

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

The vast majority of the game is nothing like the Absolute Virtue battle, one mob was created for a small group that want to kill it.

Pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

Alphabet, what, exactly, is wrong with having the MAJORITY of your content appeal to the MAJORITY of your players, with a SMALL AMOUNT of content appealing to a SMALL AMOUNT of players?

[Ziero]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Ziero: Again, you're assuming that AV CAN do that; we just don't know if that actually is the case or not. Obviously in his default form, yes, but it's simply extremely unlikely, statistically speaking, to make it through a fight without him doing something that can easily wipe your group in that form. I would find it rather hard to believe that there isn't some trick to lessening or negating that.

Wait, assuming AV can do what? Change forms? Cause I never suggested anything to that effect. I did say they added a similar 20 hour fight with a mob who does change forms, Pandemonium Warden, but that's it.

I acknowledge world-spanning kill events like the Twinkling Treants are acceptable to go on for those lengths of time but events where you're "swapping in" hundreds of people in order to achieve a kill against a loot-dropping raid mob is broken and ridiculously flawed design. Chaining members in raids in order to gain victories is an exploit other MMO's closed the loop on many moons ago, as usual S-E is painfully slow to react. Granted, zerging has always been predominant in Asian playstyles from my own experience in three seperate MMO's. Personally, I prefer to go in with a raid force of people I know and the encounter be a test of our skill levels not our ability to replace people who have died or ran out of mana. Maybe it's just me but I'd feel more of a sense of achievement that way rather than being replacement warm body #263.

Of course it's fucking broken, if you can't see why that is the case no amount of logic is going to convince you to the contrary. It's a pathetic way to weaken the effective challenge of supposedly finely-tuned mobs. If they were meant to be killed by zergs then they wouldn't put loot on them or give them the ability to award a title to the lucky few who happened to be in the alliance for the last 1%. The perpetual paradox of FFXI, the game is full of people claiming it's the hardest MMO out there because of mobs like AV and yet they overlook such blatant exploits as chain-replacing members to beat encounters.

And there are far, far far, FAR more instances of people being forced to fight mobs with limited groups and times. But there are only two super monsters that require Player swapping and day long battles. And despite being able to fully utilize this "exploit" of swapping players, people STILL haven't come close to fairly winning either fight. It's not just that FFXI is "hard", it's that it's also very varied that makes it great. While we still have our 3-6 man super mob battles, they also offer open area, day long, full-army-needed fights for those that want to do them. Where the FL assaults and uncapped KSNM and Mission BCNMs can be done with 6 or less, they also offer these monsters who require large groups of players to work together. It's not just "throwing people at it" it's keeping massive groups of players ogranized and working together to take out legendary and absurdly strong monsters. It's not players utilizing "exploits" to cheat the game, it's SE creating monsters that require the use of those specific tactics.

I apologize. That wasn't my point. The point is, good game design doesn't try to piss off as many players as possible. Players realize that a 20 hour swap-tactic isn't much skill involved. And it's true that I'm not everyone but it doesn't matter because... get this. I'm in the vast majority. As developers, they should aim for event times that appeal to the majority of their customers. And this would feasibly fall in the 2-5 hour bracket for any given event.

It's ok for 95% of the player base to say "I don't care to invest in a relic" because we're happy with how they pulled it off. Sure it has some problems (the vulnerability to RMT, namely) but for the most part, it's good game design.

Meanwhile, 95% of the player base hates Absolute Virtue. Because it was not good game design. The end.

I call BS to that. 95% of the playerbase constantly bitches about how hard it is to get Relics. Have you not seen the threads on this site alone dedicated to debates at how many feel that system is too much? But much like Relics, AV is not for everyone. AV is for those who want to fight him. And I assure you, there are plenty of people who do.

People don't hate AV because he takes forever to beat, they hate him because they can't beat him yet. If he was able to be killed fairly, even if done inconsistantly, then people wouldn't be having the problems with him that they are now. But so far the only way anyone has ever killed him was by using a glitch in the game, which was subsequently fixed followed shortly after by SE buffing AV to be even stronger, and it starts resulting in players becoming frustrated.

Time isn't the issue with AV and it never was.

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Wait, assuming AV can do what?

Easily wipe your entire group after hours of progress.

Again, yes, in his default form (nothing locked, no real known weaknesses, basically an unstoppable killing machine), but we simply do not know what happens in a fight where you know how to deal with him.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

And there are far, far far, FAR more instances of people being forced to fight mobs with limited groups and times.

Quite possibly but the subject at hand was AV and hence that's what my comments related to. Also, unless mechanics have been changed I imagine people are still swapping out members, or having assistance from non-alliance members, for mobs like Kirin and the CoP wyrms.

[Ziero]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

Easily wipe your entire group after hours of progress.

Again, yes, in his default form (nothing locked, no real known weaknesses, basically an unstoppable killing machine), but we simply do not know what happens in a fight where you know how to deal with him.

Ah, ok then

Quite possibly but the subject at hand was AV and hence that's what my comments related to. Also, unless mechanics have been changed I imagine people are still swapping out members, or having assistance from non-alliance members, for mobs like Kirin and the CoP wyrms.

CoP wyrms can be done with single alliances iirc and Kirin get's TP burned in less then 10 minutes. I believe the record on him is 3 minutes and change?

And much like many other "old" HNMs, these monsters were designed to be long, arduous fights that pushed players, as a group, to their limits. But players got stronger/better/faster as time went by but these monsters haven't changed. Enter Absolute Virtue.

[Lmnop]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

When I see threads complaining about relics, it's about removing the reliance on obtaining massive quantities of gil. Not about how it should be made easier. Every time a poster says something like that, at least 3 people lay on the retorts.

With a good deal of preparation, my current LS could feasibly do this. We down JoL in 40 mins. I'm not a whiny bitch who sees something out of my grasp and so cries about it. This has nothing to do with not being able to defeat him, for me. This is entirely about how all 60 people you cycle in and out for 18 hours will want to be there for the kill. This has everything to do with the fact that we've ignored how AV doesn't always pop off of JoL. So you could plan this huge 18 hour event and have it flop on its face. Now you're making sure to pop multiple JoLs... now you have an even longer fight...

Time is the issue and always was (no one expected the scope to be that ridiculous. This is why players wanted hints -- we expected to reduce it to that 2-3 hour mark).

And at the end of the day, it's still a HR achievement, not a gaming achievement. No, of course no one's going to budge in this thread.

Closing thought: that 5% deserve a better mob than this.
______________________________

Kirin get's TP burned in less then 10 minutes. I believe the record on him is 3 minutes and change?

Lower.

[Aksannyi]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

I believe the record on him is 3 minutes and change?

We did it in like 40 seconds, without counting in the bard swaps. From pop to death it was done extremely quickly, and our Kirin burns rarely last more than 2 minutes. Unless we get slept or something stupid.

And along the relic line, I like the ToAU relic system much better. I've slowly (and I do mean SLOWLY, because I only buy when I see EXTREMELY LOW prices at this point) started amassing currency for one, but I don't like the fact that it's not really "epic" in nature. ToAU requires us to do a lot of different things, things that aren't necessarly easy but don't require boatloads of gil (which can be RMT'ed, last I checked Captain rank can't) to complete.

Both are difficult and both will be rare, but one quest design, in my opinion, is better than the other. I'm definitely more interested in working hard at multiple aspects of the game to obtain a weapon than simply farming and farming and farming.

(And don't ask which relic I plan to get. I haven't really decided yet. Which is why I'm just gathering currency here and there for now. Hell I might even change my mind, then I can sell it all. XD)

[Feba]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

When I see threads complaining about relics, it's about removing the reliance on obtaining massive quantities of gil.

There's also the issue of it requiring a large group effort (specifically, the NMs) for what is essentially only a reward for one person. Which again goes back to "FFXI is great if you have large amounts of excellent friends, and pretty frustrating otherwise."

And at the end of the day, it's still a HR achievement, not a gaming achievement.

And what the hell is a 'gaming achievement'? It's obviously not pressing buttons quickly enough, with skill. FFXI's "achievements" have ALWAYS been a matter of planning strategy, endurance, and a little bit of luck. Simple comparison: look at Kingdom Hearts, then look at FFXI. KH, you can almost always win if your reflexes are good enough; regardless of how horribly you've set yourself up. FFXI, the wrong piece of armor could make the difference between life and death, regardless of how skilled you are.

[Balfree]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

You know, the argument about the alliance that gets the kill... and the title...

Dont HNMLSs have point systems to decide who gets which drop? They kill HNM multiple times so more people can get the drops, can't the same thing be done with AV? If people want the title so bad, kill it multiple times...

[Aksannyi]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

I love collecting titles, but no way am I gonna hang out for 18 hours to get one. Nope.

[Cotners]

Re: 2008 Premier Site Summit . . . OR, Why Has Not Anybody Made a Thread On This Yet?

You know, the argument about the alliance that gets the kill... and the title...

Dont HNMLSs have point systems to decide who gets which drop? They kill HNM multiple times so more people can get the drops, can't the same thing be done with AV? If people want the title so bad, kill it multiple times...

Yes and no, while our LS has killed Vrtra 4 times I still don't have the title because I am always in the add parties taking care of vrtra's smns and random pops in the area. Summoners are our main dmg source on Vrtra, well was anyway before they gave Vrtra draw in.