The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

[Durahansolo]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

WEST RONFAURE
Blind ring
[Ring] All Races
Enchantment: "Blind"
Lv. 5 All Jobs
<100/100 0:30/[1:00, 0:30]>

Yeah.....so does this blind the mob or you? I'm sure theres probably a few pieces of armor that have a latent effect of blind.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

That's the whole reason for the supposed spring update.

No, its not the reason. The reason for the update is to make RDM melee more viable in situations where they probably are not able to make good use of their enfeebling to start with.

The "problems" RDM has are due to EXP trends more than it is job or mob design.

I challenge you to take RDM outside of any ToA EXP camp and go to an old-school IT++ EXP camp and tell me then that RDM is not functioning as the A+ Enfeebler it was retconned into being. It was shifted in that direction because its "original intention" left it with no defining specialties to separate itself from WHM or BLM. RDM needed a definition and it was redefined as a high-ranking enfeebler with high MP endurance.

If RDM can't fufill the enfeebler role due to the situation, then buffing them in new direction makes sense. It doesn't mean the new direction will become the norm, however.

RDM got shoved into the healer slot after enfeebling was not practical for the mobs people wanted to EXP on. People are not wrong for wanting to EXP what they want to EXP on, nor are they wrong for inviting RDMs for the reasons they do.

I'm fairly willing to bet that any melee boost you get will come at the expense of enfeebling capabilities, not just losing access to staves.

And you shouldn't get anything that replaces elemental staves, more and more with each passing day its clear SE added those into the game for a very specific reason - if you want to reach your casting potential, you are to use them for casting.

Also, that DNC example thrown out there was silly. DNC requires melee to function in a party setting, Red Mage does not.

[Vyuru]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

That just speaks to a rather narrow vision of the player base. BLU enfeebles may not get big billing, mostly because you fail to appreciate the value of a smartly-geared Mind Blast. You certainly wouldn't turn down the Stun effect from a Headbutt, right? Or Disseverment's Poison? BLU have a plethora of capabilities, you simply refuse to see them.

I'm talking about how most of the player base sees Blu, and why they invite a Blu to a exp party. So far I have yet to see a Blu break out Mind Blast, Sandspin, Wild Oats, Chaotic Eye, or any of the other enfeeble or heck, even Blank Gaze/Geist Wall. We =! I here.

Also I don't consider the stun spells to be enfeebling, those fall outside of enfeebles and more in the sleep spell category. Saying I must not expect Stun from a Blu is like saying I don't expect Plds to use Flash since we don't invite them for enfeebling either.

And lastly I'm talking mostly about general exp pickup parties here. I would expect to see more Blu enfeebles in say, Nyzul or some other event, than I would in a exp party.

And BP, when I'm talking magely duties I am talking from the standpoint of a Rdm in a party with either Smn + Rdm, Whm + Rdm, Rdm x2, or 3x mage parties. When I build a party I never leave it all to just one mage. If the Rdm cannot melee while doing their Rdm specific duties in a party that has Smn, Rdm, and a Whm in it, then they fail horribly and can get their ass back to the back lines. All I ask from Rdms is enfeebling, hastes, dispels, refresh, backup curing as needed and if they want MBing on the MB. In particular, I want them there to enfeeble, dispel, refresh, and either handle the haste cycle or split it with the Whm. If they cannot even land a freaking dispel on the mob while they melee, then it's to the back lines.

And when I talk about seeing melee Rdms who can't manage their jobs, I'm talking about parties that are Whm, Rdm + some other mage/support job.

If the Rdm can't land an enfeeble or the enfeeble is halfassed because they're wearing +acc rings instead of +int or +mnd rings, then I have an issue with them. After 51, if the Rdm isn't using an elemental staff, then the potency of the enfeebles will be lessened, that's an issue although I might be willing to work around that one if they can do a good enough job without it. If because they are up meleeing and not resting, and we run out of mp to keep chaining, that's another issue. If they are not dispelling or enfeebling at all, that's an issue.

When I talk magely duties it is NOT some imagined thing. It's what we are inviting the Rdms for in the first place.

And you're damn right. If they can melee and handle the minimums, the enfeebling, the dispelling, the refreshing, and sharing a haste load, then I'm more than happy to let them. If they can't, then they can't melee. It's hardly malicious to tell Rdms that if they can't do the job they were invited for while meleeing that they cannot melee.

Also, it is hardly a matter of convenience that I am against this. In all my years of playing, I have yet to meet a single Rdm who can manage a 3 person refresh cycle and dispel the mob when it uses a nasty buff while meleeing, even though I have given plenty of Rdms the opportunity to do so. And that is below the absolute minimum that I expect from a Rdm when I invite one.


Let's put it this way. I view melee Rdm vs casting Rdm in an exp party the same way I view an earth staff tanking Pld vs sword/shield tanking Pld in an exp party. One works damn well, the other just doesn't except for the rare player or circumstances.

[Raydeus]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

/

Count me on the group of players who didn't like Chrono Cross.

[Kailea]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

In an ideal world yes, but this is the Chrono Cross team we're talking about (I'm never letting up on that XD worst battle system EVER) so who knows. It's not out of the realm of possibilities but it's not terribly likely either.


They could always surprise us with the job adjustments coming in the March update however.


EDIT: Off topic, but at least CC had one of the best intros to an RPG ever to compensate for the WORST battle system & music ever >_>

CC Intro

YouTube - My Top 25 RPG Opening Themes #1- Chrono Cross

Battle Theme

YouTube - Chrono Cross - Battle Theme

^ ears are still bleeding from listening to this.

you talk as if this is fact -.- but there are people (like me) who liked Crono Cross, and I liked the battle music -.-

[Malacite]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Or Disseverment's Poison?

I was unaware that move poisoned! I just thought it was a 5-hit piercing move.


Also, Cold Wave can land an extremely powerful Frost if properly geared.

[Tickmeoff]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

In an ideal world yes, but this is the Chrono Cross team we're talking about (I'm never letting up on that XD worst battle system EVER) so who knows.

ENTER OFF TOPIC MODE


Yeah, fuck all that having to think and plan out what I'm going to have to do in battle shit, where's my FF system so I can spam X to attack until the enemies die.

Or my Dragon Quest system, where I can spam X to attack until the enemies die.

Or my Star Ocean system, where I can spam X to attack until the enemies die.

Or hell, how about the Chrono Trigger system, where I can spam A to attack until the enemies die.

Or how about the FFXII battle system, where I can just put the fucking controller on the floor while Gambits play the game for me.

tldr eat a dick, Chrono Cross was great

[BurningPanther]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

We invite Rdm for Haste, Refresh, Healing and enfeebles.

We invite Blu for their damage, and sometimes for their healing abilities.

Big difference.

That just speaks to a rather narrow vision of the player base. BLU enfeebles may not get big billing, mostly because you fail to appreciate the value of a smartly-geared Mind Blast. You certainly wouldn't turn down the Stun effect from a Headbutt, right? Or Disseverment's Poison? BLU have a plethora of capabilities, you simply refuse to see them.

Same for RDM, mostly a three-trick pony, it's potential wasted. However, deficiencies in gear and overall job aspects have only helped to facilitate this.

And contrary to what some Rdm say, I have yet to see a Rdm who could effectively melee and manage all of their magely duties.

That's the whole reason for the supposed spring update.

Rdm are free to do what they want, as are the rest of us. I'm willing to let Rdms flex their melee muscle, but not at the cost of their mage duties. If people are dying because the Rdm is more focused on melee than what they were invited to do, or something equally serious that's slowing down our exp, either they're going or I'm going.

Yeah that sounds rather elitist when I say it, but I'm not willing to have my party exp take a serious drop because someone wants to be "different". And I say that knowing that most of the Rdm who want to pull out their sword will do whatever they can to justify their melee. Doesn't matter if 4/6 party members die because the Rdm didn't use their MP since that would slow down their sword swings, they'll still find some way to justify it.

Except what you call "magely duties" are more perceived than real. Is RDM the only job with Haste? Is it the only one you can get Cure from? It's certainly not the only job anymore with a form of Refresh (it wasn't even the first). I've already pointed out it's not the only one with Enfeebling ability. You could just as easily pick up a WHM or SMN to take up the Curing and Hasting duties, or BRD to cover Ballads. Why then, single out RDM? These things are artificial limitations placed upon the job to justify putting the person playing it through the paces they do, to avoid inviting another class for fear of downtime.

Part of it was covered by Karinya--this monopoly speedkilling wimps has over exp efficiency and party configuration. If parties were slowed down by bigger threats rather than being slowed down by mana-related downtime, they'd certainly have to pick up more than just a RDM for support.

Everything you just said has all the tone of "if you can keep up x amount of Hastes plus x amount of Refresh plus x amount of Cures, only then will you be allowed to melee," knowing full well they'll never measure up to that standard and will be forced to the back. That doesn't just sound elitist, it sounds downright malicious.

I haven't been championing RDM frontlining for the sake of being different, I've been a proponent of the job actually performing the way it was intended--unifying practice and theory, as it were. We should all be applauding attempts to make jobs perform better or more enjoyably, rather than holding them back for the sake of our own convenience.

[Celeal]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

The only downside for solo EP-DC is skill up (if you don't have other higher level job to cap that skill)

I had solo-ed my WHM from lvl 33 to 37 with ease in WtoG area before FoV is introduced... (Sigil bonus is awesome). Unless a low level exp party can gain faster (and safer, no death) than FoV, as Raydeus in the above post mentioned, there is no motivation for me to join exp. parties before level 54 (the Xarcabard FoV level).

With the expection of capping skill.

After level 54, ToAU exp. parties....

You see, before level 54 = FoV; after level 54 = ToAU exp parties. Maybe S-E make this intentionally.

[Raydeus]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

This is the part where I coment that even though it varied from job to job I usually got more xp/hr from soloing 1-30ish than other people in parties. It was sad I usually got more xp in an hour in Dangruf Wadi than what people from the LS got spending 3+ hours (in a party) at the dunes. Some of them with PL.

So I can only asume that with the changes to EP-DC xp there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever for me to even try to party before lvl 40.

[Vyuru]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

I dare you to deny a DNC an invite because you don't want them meleeing.

Isn't this one of the oddball forums though where alot of us are open to ideas that others aren't? Just because Ziero may be open to the idea doesn't mean that the majority of players are as well.

And I do think that Blue Mage is different from Red Mage. I agree with Armando's viewpoint, that Blue Magic is more like magical WS, and I would take it a step further and say that Blu is more like a magical Samurai more than it is a "combat mage" like Rdm was supposed to be. It's really not fair to compare Rdm and Blu at all.

We invite Rdm for Haste, Refresh, Healing and enfeebles.

We invite Blu for their damage, and sometimes for their healing abilities.

Big difference.


And contrary to what some Rdm say, I have yet to see a Rdm who could effectively melee and manage all of their magely duties.

Too, consider this.

With the new FoV, players can gain experience that is approaching the low end of what an average exp party can obtain, possibly slightly higher exp/hr. I don't know about the rest of you, but my standards for party exp just went up. If I'm not happy about a party for whatever reason. Be it camping on top of others, racial slurs, people being idiots, slow kills, whatever, I am more than happy now to pack my bags and go solo.

Rdm are free to do what they want, as are the rest of us. I'm willing to let Rdms flex their melee muscle, but not at the cost of their mage duties. If people are dying because the Rdm is more focused on melee than what they were invited to do, or something equally serious that's slowing down our exp, either they're going or I'm going.

Yeah that sounds rather elitist when I say it, but I'm not willing to have my party exp take a serious drop because someone wants to be "different". And I say that knowing that most of the Rdm who want to pull out their sword will do whatever they can to justify their melee. Doesn't matter if 4/6 party members die because the Rdm didn't use their MP since that would slow down their sword swings, they'll still find some way to justify it.

[BurningPanther]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Nothing saying the dev team can't innovate. I assert that BLU and DNC were their finest introductions... but on the other hand, they also gave us SMN's "Skill over cap" nonsense.

I just fear they're treading entirely too carefully here, and that the spring update will amount nothing that makes a difference.

[Malacite]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Why does every job have to be awesome at speedkilling wimps? Sure, *right now* it's the overwhelmingly fastest way to earn xp. But that supremacy isn't set in stone. SE could, if they wanted to, bring balance to the Force different styles of exp parties and give all the jobs designed to fight dangerous mobs their roles back.

In an ideal world yes, but this is the Chrono Cross team we're talking about (I'm never letting up on that XD worst battle system EVER) so who knows. It's not out of the realm of possibilities but it's not terribly likely either.


They could always surprise us with the job adjustments coming in the March update however.


EDIT: Off topic, but at least CC had one of the best intros to an RPG ever to compensate for the WORST battle system & music ever >_>

CC Intro

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHtyCx8DRD4[/ame]

Battle Theme

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRkqWdE_Nd0[/ame]

^ ears are still bleeding from listening to this.

[BurningPanther]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

Hmm, I just had an idea that might help RDM without being insanely broken: a stance-type JA (ie duration longer than recast, so you can keep it up constantly if you want) that when it's active, you gain +1 magic accuracy for every 5 TP you have and +1% cure potency for every 20 TP, but for every spell you cast, your TP decreases by 10. (Alternatively, a piece of gear that has a similar effect, but then it only benefits people who have it, conflicts with other gear, etc.)

Wouldn't this create a stigma against RDM? One could argue that if his TP is spent with spells, so he'd have to cast sparingly to stretch it out better. Unless he's doling out melee damage fast and accurately, he's not going to accrue TP fast enough to keep spells going out the way we currently do(without the TP application).

Other players might conclude that RDM is too inefficient to include in parties, as opposed to a job that can cast without the TP restriction.

[Karinya]

Re: The December Version Update Cometh! (12/09/2008)

But are additions to a job that do not help them achieve their main job better even considered buffs? Why the hell do Whm need an increase in melee capabilities? Under no circumstances, in any situation, would I want a Whm to melee mobs that we need a Whm to fight against. What Whm and Rdm should get are things that enhance their best attributes as White mages and Red mages. Things to enhance their support capabilities, healing abilities and enfeebling potential. But somehow pushing Whm and Rdm to the "frontlines" will not help these two jobs in any area except ones where they're already on the "frontlines". And while I can understand throwing Rdm a bone and buffing their Melee skills for the sake of just because...is doing the same to Whm *really* that good of an idea?

I think you're half right. It's true that it will have little benefit to make whm better at melee (except for their soloing and campaign, I guess). But enhancing their mage abilities won't help much either. White mages are already really, really great at what they do, by far the best in the game. Their problem is all that content where one healer is too many and what you want is a part healer, part support (e.g. RDM, SMN) or part healer, part DD (e.g. SCH, DNC).

So, basically, in a challenging fight there are already excellent reasons to bring a whm (or even more than one). It's just speedkilling wimps that WHM are subpar at.

Why does every job have to be awesome at speedkilling wimps? Sure, *right now* it's the overwhelmingly fastest way to earn xp. But that supremacy isn't set in stone. SE could, if they wanted to, bring balance to the Force different styles of exp parties and give all the jobs designed to fight dangerous mobs their roles back.


RDM, even more so, doesn't need a melee update. The day RDM becomes a DD is the day every other job becomes gimp except *maybe* NIN, and if we're not meleeing for damage, what are we meleeing for? /DNC effects? (Come to think of it... if it wasn't for those goddamn staves, RDM/DNC might actually be pretty good at things other than dealing damage. I should try that in something like Campaign or Assault where you really don't need staves.) And we can already keep up with speedkill parties ok with refresh and convert; I don't see how melee would enhance our ability to do so anyway.

Certainly I'd like to be freed from the tyranny of elemental staves (now that I have Goliard Cuffs, Balrahn's Ring and D.Chapeau I might be only three or four rare/ex endgame pieces away from reliably landing enfeebles without them - at least on non-HNMs) but that wouldn't necessarily involve a melee update as such.


Hmm, I just had an idea that might help RDM without being insanely broken: a stance-type JA (ie duration longer than recast, so you can keep it up constantly if you want) that when it's active, you gain +1 magic accuracy for every 5 TP you have and +1% cure potency for every 20 TP, but for every spell you cast, your TP decreases by 10. (Alternatively, a piece of gear that has a similar effect, but then it only benefits people who have it, conflicts with other gear, etc.)

So you have to keep meleeing to get the TP back, and you can't swap weapons or you'll lose the TP and therefore the bonus. Since RDM suck with staves, you couldn't use a staff and still keep up with the TP loss per cast. On the other hand, once you are sitting on a couple hundred TP, who needs staves when you have +40-60 macc on top of the rest of your gear and cure potency comparable to (or even slightly better than) light staff?

You probably wouldn't want to WS, but that's no great loss for a RDM. The only thing you'd really be missing out on is dark staff's +hMP, but between RDM's limited rest time available and all the other hMP gear available now, big freaking deal.

This would free RDMs up from staves, while at the same time (1) not affecting staves' usefulness for other jobs that use them; (2) not turning us into a DD uber-job monster; (3) probably not affecting HNM fights much since our TP would decay and be hard to recover; (4) coexisting reasonably with existing gear (anyone who has Justice or Joyeuse, let alone Enhancing Sword or Murgleis, would probably be rather peeved by the introduction of a +macc sword to replace staves, as is sometimes suggested); (5) not relying on a mage using a melee SJ in order to be effective.