Development Team Q&A - May 2008

[Feba]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

In this game the only real way to limit something

Wrong. You don't mean the only way to limit something, you mean the only ways SE HAS limited something. Big, big difference.

super impossible to beat NMs that take armies of people.

Wrong again! It's perfectly possible to make very challenging fights that must be done solo.

which means the only difference between someone who plays a lot and someone who plays a little is the time it takes to accumulate coins.

Wrong. There are many more reasons why someone who plays a lot will have advantages-- the ability to find a dynamis LS in their playtime, for one. Searching for currency in bazaars, for another. It's much more than just time.

Getting Xarc is an indirect requirement to getting a relic.

Yep-- it's a requirement, NOT a part of the challenge. You wouldn't say that Zilart Missions are more challenging because they require you to beat SL. You have to do it, sure, but it's got pretty much nothing to do with why it's challenging-- and you probably had it done for a long time before you bothered doing the other.

most of the Quests in this game aren't really "quests" since you can buy your way through them.

Partially. They aren't very good quests, but there's a giant difference in that AT LEAST SOME OF THOSE HAVE A STORY. The relic weapon upgrades are basically just some random goblin saying "Alright, pay me and I'll do this.". And most of the quests you can buy your way through aren't incredibly important.

Yes, people who put in more effort to play this game should get more out of it.

Well gee, I suppose it's a good thing that they already do! Are you seriously trying to advocate that relic weapons are the ONLY thing that people who play more have as an advantage is the ability to get relic weapons?

Oh, and as YM pointed out, you just said that people who don't play as much can still get relic weapons; and now you say that people who play less shouldn't be able to get relics. What?

Joe Schmo who logs on once a week shouldn't be able to get one of these intentionally rare items at the same speed as the guy who plays nightly.

Nobody is talking about people who play once a week. We're more talking about someone who plays an hour and a half to two hours a day, compared to someone who plays four or five hours a day or more. And really, why should they have an advantage? Why should the game resort to rewarding whoever has the most money; instead of who is the best player, who actually works the hardest, and so on? I mean, do you really think that people who play less shouldn't be able to have as much fun?

The only difference is time.

And time can be incredibly powerful. Time can be the difference between never being able to get a relic, being able to get one in a few years, and being able to get one within a few months. Time can also be the difference between being able to barely make enough gil to keep up with daily tasks in FFXI, and being able to put some away for currency. And really, if time is the best thing SE can do to make something challenging, there are much more serious problems with FFXI.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Then by your own admission, getting the R/E items and getting Dyna Xarc isn't that hard, meaning the "hard" part is the coins...which means the only difference between someone who plays a lot and someone who plays a little is the time it takes to accumulate coins.

Yes, people who put in more effort to play this game should get more out of it. Joe Schmo who logs on once a week shouldn't be able to get one of these intentionally rare items at the same speed as the guy who plays nightly.

Contradict yourself much?

Which anyone can do regardless of how much time they play this game.

You assume money grows on trees. Unfortunately, that's not even true for ancient currency.

[Ziero]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

It is listed as a quest, but it is not really much of a quest in the traditional sense of what a quest is. If you can't understand what I mean by that, go read a few books.

The "Quest", by any definition is there, it's just not the one you wanted. In this game the only real way to limit something is either through gil or super impossible to beat NMs that take armies of people. One of these methods can be overcome by a single person working slowly over time while the other can't. And to be perfectly honest, I'd rather obtain relic weapons by working slowly over time then have to join 30+ people for hours on end fighting something that just won't die.

Then, by extension, said R/E items are a cake walk; while all of the difficulty is from gathering coins. Said R/E items are not a huge effort in the overall work to obtain a relic weapon.

Then by your own admission, getting the R/E items and getting Dyna Xarc isn't that hard, meaning the "hard" part is the coins...which means the only difference between someone who plays a lot and someone who plays a little is the time it takes to accumulate coins.

is not. There are plenty of other reasons to get to Xarc without having any interest in a relic weapon. The relic weapon quest is the only thing being debated here-- unless someone is only applicable to that, it's irrelevant. It's like saying that part of the challenge of anything at endgame is leveling up to 75-- it doesn't really make sense to count every single thing your character has ever done as a part of whatever you're doing, even if it was required (such as Kazham Airship Pass to access Elshimo)

Getting Xarc is an indirect requirement to getting a relic. You can't obtain one without having access to that zone. I can do plenty of endgame things not at 75, i won't be effective but they can be done (infact you can even do Dynamis at 65!). But I will never own a relic without working to get Xarca. Just like beating the three promies and the aqueduct is an indirect requirement to getting a Jaeger ring. Because I can't try to get these items unless I have access to the zone and I can't get access to the zone unless I beat those missions first.

And yet you'd be outraged at how easy it would be if they took out the coin collecting bit. Thus, it's not primarily a quest, it is a grind for money.

No, it's primarily a quest. Many many quests involve things you can buy, fancy that! But then by your "standards" most of the Quests in this game aren't really "quests" since you can buy your way through them. Good thing we don't play by your standards then.

First of all, because SE should be encouraging people to not play so much every day; but secondly, nobody has proposed that. Again, people who put in twice the amount of time are still going to have HUGE advantages over people who don't in many many areas of the game -- why give them yet another bit of practically exclusive content, and screw over other people who are just as dedicated as players? Making it possible for people to obtain relics through challenges which could be done in an hour or so a day instead of simply making it a money race isn't going to make things worse on those players. It's not going to make their extra effort a waste. It's not going to ruin the game.

Yes, people who put in more effort to play this game should get more out of it. Joe Schmo who logs on once a week shouldn't be able to get one of these intentionally rare items at the same speed as the guy who plays nightly.

So, by your own words, you're claiming that you only need to buy a single coin to get a relic weapon? And at such a low cost that someone who plays less would not be at any significant disadvantage?

Buying one coin and buying a thousand coins will still cost both people the same amount of gil. The only difference is time.

Exactly. The majority of it is buying coins-- not gaining access to new parts of dynamis, not killing NMs, like you love to point out-- it is in buying coins; and maybe getting some of them as drops in dynamis.

Which anyone can do regardless of how much time they play this game.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I have, and it sucks.

Ditto that! I'm sitting there thinking that I could be downstairs scrubbing the floor, doing laundry, etc instead of sitting on my arse doing nothing. Annoys the hell out of me. Then to get claim 1% of the time because the botting ls's usually get it....ya so much fun. I thought the ls's I've been in didn't bot....well that was until that list of people who bought the bot program came out and I saw the leader's g/f's character on it. Must have been broken. lol

I sketch is epic for the 28 min wait.

The last time I didn't pay attention to what was going on, an idiot rng in our ally decided to Sidwinder a darter. We know he did cause his macro posted to the ally ***SIDEWINDER*** and yet when questioned he said that it "aggro'd" him. Of course, I had just got done raising someone so I was resting for mp and ended up dead. Thank goodness he decided to server hop....oops no thats right, he's back now, good luck ls's on Midgard! lol

Yeah, we did, you post quality went up when you stopped breaking quotes up so much. Ziero is clearly out to lower the quality of his posts and claim your original posting legacy

Feba's pretty darn good at doing it too! LOL

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

You hate the kings system but have you ever actually been invovled in kings?

If I hadn't camped a king before, do you really think I would be complaining about it?

At present we spend up to possibly three hours camping per king,per day or LSes send people or groups to monitor each one if the windows are close. There's a chance the King might pop (or in DA's case, a chance Nid might pop instead of Faffy). And for each RL day it doesn't appear, that chance increases.

This wasn't fun when it was just three or four linkshells competing for claim. It was a flawed system when we had that many, botting claim was just as bad back then. Now you have maybe ten LSes botting for claim depending on the population of your server.

I've camped 'em all. They're all boring endeavors and you know most, if not all, the LSes there have a bot for claim. You had didn't denying yours did, Sevv. But then, its really the only way to get claim. I don't camp them at present nor do I join linkshells that do camp them because, really, there's nothing I need from them, but they weren't a blast when i did camp them.

So, rather than waste time questioning my experience on HNMs, let's discuss what's wrong with them. If there wasn't something wrong, no one would bot claim on them or complain that too many linkshells are there camping/botting claim.

And you all bitched about me breaking up posts.

Yeah, we did, you post quality went up when you stopped breaking quotes up so much. Ziero is clearly out to lower the quality of his posts and claim your original posting legacy

[Feba]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

...what? So despite being a quest...it's not a real quest because you say so?

It is listed as a quest, but it is not really much of a quest in the traditional sense of what a quest is. If you can't understand what I mean by that, go read a few books.

Why yes, if it were just R/E items it would be a cake walk.

Then, by extension, said R/E items are a cake walk; while all of the difficulty is from gathering coins. Said R/E items are not a huge effort in the overall work to obtain a relic weapon.

Getting to Dyna Xarc is part of getting a relic weapon.

No, it is not. There are plenty of other reasons to get to Xarc without having any interest in a relic weapon. The relic weapon quest is the only thing being debated here-- unless someone is only applicable to that, it's irrelevant. It's like saying that part of the challenge of anything at endgame is leveling up to 75-- it doesn't really make sense to count every single thing your character has ever done as a part of whatever you're doing, even if it was required (such as Kazham Airship Pass to access Elshimo)

That sounds like a Quest to me!

And yet you'd be outraged at how easy it would be if they took out the coin collecting bit. Thus, it's not primarily a quest, it is a grind for money.

There's a lot of middle ground between the extremes ya know

yes, and that's completely irrelevant.

...because why should someone who doesn't put as much effort into something be as good as someone who does twice as much as them?

First of all, because SE should be encouraging people to not play so much every day; but secondly, nobody has proposed that. Again, people who put in twice the amount of time are still going to have HUGE advantages over people who don't in many many areas of the game -- why give them yet another bit of practically exclusive content, and screw over other people who are just as dedicated as players? Making it possible for people to obtain relics through challenges which could be done in an hour or so a day instead of simply making it a money race isn't going to make things worse on those players. It's not going to make their extra effort a waste. It's not going to ruin the game.

...so the challenge is the same but not the difficulty?

yes. It's a rather nuanced concept, it's hard to explain with words.

Because it's just as "difficult" to buy a coin for someone who plays a little and someone who plays a lot

So, by your own words, you're claiming that you only need to buy a single coin to get a relic weapon? And at such a low cost that someone who plays less would not be at any significant disadvantage?

Buying a coin is a gross simplification.

, but the majority of it, the accumulation of the coins,

Exactly. The majority of it is buying coins-- not gaining access to new parts of dynamis, not killing NMs, like you love to point out-- it is in buying coins; and maybe getting some of them as drops in dynamis.

[Ziero]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

And you all bitched about me breaking up posts.

It's ok to bitch about others doing it as long as they don't bitch you out for doing it too!

Hypocrisy rules!

[Sevv]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

And you all bitched about me breaking up posts.

[Ziero]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Just because it's listed as a quest doesn't mean it's actually a quest in the traditional sense; which something like Relic Weapons definitely should be.

...what? So despite being a quest...it's not a real quest because you say so?

The R/E items are a small part of the challenge compared to gathering coins. By your own admission, if it were just the R/E items, everyone and their mannequins would have relic weapons.

Why yes, if it were just R/E items it would be a cake walk. But that's not what I'm arguing, I'm saying they're included with the, and I quote seeing you missed it the first time,

a buttload of coins

Meaning it's NOT just the R/E items and it's NOT just the coins but a combination of the two. Which is why it's a QUEST.

And yes, you need access to Dyna-Xarc. Honestly, big deal-- this is like saying that AV should be a cakewalk because it takes so much effort to get through COP and Sea NMs.

Seriously, where the hell do you come up with this stuff? Getting to Dyna Xarc is part of getting a relic weapon. It's not just gathering coins, which you so fervently focus upon, but gaining access to more and more difficult zones.

So to obtain a Relic weapon you need a combination of access to a highly specialized zone which is obtained through defeating five other endgame zones, each one filled with numerous NMs and HNMs, special R/E drops off specific NMs in each of these zones, traveling around the world obtaining numerous CS and such AND collecting lots and lots and lots and lots of ancient currency.

That sounds like a Quest to me!

Because SE has a little warning that says "Don't ruin your life playing this. It's a damn game" every time you start it? From a business perspective, people not being on the servers all the time = good thing.

And you don't have to play 24/7 to play more then the average person. Many people only play on weekends, others only at night, some only during certain days. Why some people go to school, work and hang out with friends and STILL play more then many "average players". There's a lot of middle ground between the extremes ya know. But those who play more should and will progress fatser then those who don't.

They already do. They have more time to gain EXP, gil; their schedules are more flexible which makes it easier for them to do events and find LS. Why should those who don't have as much time be denied the most powerful weapons in the game, when there are already plenty of other benefits for the people that do?

...because why should someone who doesn't put as much effort into something be as good as someone who does twice as much as them?

Not really. Challenge, yes; but not how difficult it is for someone to complete something. Someone who has less time to play is simply less likely to ever be able to ever complete a relic.

...so the challenge is the same but not the difficulty? Because it's just as "difficult" to buy a coin for someone who plays a little and someone who plays a lot. Infact the only "challenge" for someone who doesn't play that often would be obtaining Dyna-Xarc and getting the R/E pieces. Which, ironically, are the parts of the quest you seem to have ignored!

And you support relic quests why?

Because it's not six specific people all working together to achieve the same goal? People can help you with parts of the Relic Quest, but the majority of it, the accumulation of the coins, is something you have to do yourself. Even if your funding Dynamis runs, you're paying others to help you so they go in knowing why they're getting in free of charge.

But everyone pays to get into Nyzul and everyone works to obtain each floor so everyone should get credit for reaching each step.

[Feba]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Just because you can buy the items for a quest doesn't mean it's not a quest

Just because it's listed as a quest doesn't mean it's actually a quest in the traditional sense; which something like Relic Weapons definitely should be.

but you need R/E items as well in addition to access to all of the RoZ Dynamis zones, which in and of itself can be a challenge.

The R/E items are a small part of the challenge compared to gathering coins. By your own admission, if it were just the R/E items, everyone and their mannequins would have relic weapons.

And yes, you need access to Dyna-Xarc. Honestly, big deal-- this is like saying that AV should be a cakewalk because it takes so much effort to get through COP and Sea NMs.

Why should people who don't spend as much time playing get the same rewards as those who play more?

Because SE has a little warning that says "Don't ruin your life playing this. It's a damn game" every time you start it? From a business perspective, people not being on the servers all the time = good thing.

Shouldn't those who do "have the time" to play get better rewards?

They already do. They have more time to gain EXP, gil; their schedules are more flexible which makes it easier for them to do events and find LS. Why should those who don't have as much time be denied the most powerful weapons in the game, when there are already plenty of other benefits for the people that do?

The ironic part is that obtaining Relics is something both people who play often and don't play a lot can do with the same difficulty.

Not really. Challenge, yes; but not how difficult it is for someone to complete something. Someone who has less time to play is simply less likely to ever be able to ever complete a relic.

There's no reason everyone should work towards something where only one person gets "credit" for it.

And you support relic quests why?

[Sevv]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I sketch is epic for the 28 min wait.

[Ziero]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

Wrong. You gave me an example of a very large gil/timesink. At best, you're using circular logic.
And SE has also never attempted to make a mission/quest that also was intended to be rare.

Just because you can buy the items for a quest doesn't mean it's not a quest. Not only do you need a buttload of coins, but you need R/E items as well in addition to access to all of the RoZ Dynamis zones, which in and of itself can be a challenge. Just because you refuse to accept facts doesn't mean you're right.

Fixed. Just because you have a ton of time to sink into a game doesn't mean others do; and it doesn't mean that those others should be punished when it would be a far better system to make it challenging instead of a simple grind anyway.

Why should people who don't spend as much time playing get the same rewards as those who play more? Shouldn't those who do "have the time" to play get better rewards?

The ironic part is that obtaining Relics is something both people who play often and don't play a lot can do with the same difficulty.

The disc-holder bit is really the only part about Nyzul I hate. Everyone who worked to get up those floors should be able to select them in the future. I've had Nyzul Statics that got to a certain floor and it fell apart or the disc-holder quits or they just never get started.

Everyone should be able to record the progress in the event any of these things happen. Sucks to have to start from the bottom again.

This I can agree with. There's no reason everyone should work towards something where only one person gets "credit" for it.

[Jonastb]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

I have, and it sucks. Nothing more annoying and boring that sitting there waiting for 28 minutes, hoping it will pop in the 2 minute window. Then also having 100 other people hoping it does, and that it pops right on top of you. Only to not have it pop and wait another 28 minutes, to a maximum of 3 hours. Even when it pops, you have to be the lucky LS to actually get claim, and then, hope it drops what you need.

Yeah, the system was good when there were only a handful of people who were at that level, now, it needs to be revamped.

[Sevv]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

You hate the kings system but have you ever actually been invovled in kings?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Development Team Q&A - May 2008

which is a large part of the problem.

And sometimes they overshot the initial fix.

When Diorites became the pop item for Ulli, they totally overshot. The drops were totally easy to get and people were popping Byakko and completing Kirin pop sets. They brought that to a halt within the month.

Now, I'll admit, I hate the 21-24 hour HQ/NQ King system, but lets say kings were made poppable - how would the go about not overshooting this, yet making more practical and challenging to fight them? There's a reason a lot of the best stuff comes from kings and SE makes them spawn the way they do - SE wants this stuff to be rare.

The system to make this possible would at least have to be intricate and lengthy as popping a sky god, possibly moreso than that, even.

I think it really all boils down to balancing it and that takes time considering all the other things that need balancing. Adding more HNMs would spread people out, but only so much.

Think about all the adjustments that have been a long time coming. Thief's Knife, adjustments for DRG and BST, Auto-Refresh for PLD, etc. If everything was an easy fix, it would all be done instantly and I think we'd have a pretty broken game as a result. Sometimes the fixes take too long, but what can you do?