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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by Ziero View Post
    There are very few situations, if any, where War is the best tank past 40.
    [...]
    The problem is, War was supposed to be one of the main tanks in the game.
    I don't disagree with the assertion that WAR is not the "best tank" past Lv.40, but I don't see this as a problem per se.

    If I am to worry so much about what jobs were supposed to be eight years ago, I'd be moaning about NINs tanking or PLDs using /NIN able to hit higher total enmity than PLDs using /WAR or something like that.


    Originally posted by Ziero View Post
    Sam/War for example can duo tank just as efficiently, if not moreso, then War/Nin as they have more on demand burst damage, similar if not better defensive stats, a built in damage mitigation ability and never have to worry about shadow recasts.
    Have you duo or solo tanked on SAM/WAR? I find it frustrating due to to the fickle nature of Third Eye. As a long time tank player (PLD) and a (relatively recent) SAM75, I much prefer WAR/NIN over SAM/WAR for tanking.

    (Of course, I also prefer PLD over WAR for tanking, but not every situation is best served by PLD kind of tanking.)

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  • Ziero
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    I never said duo tanking wasn't an efficient way to tank, but the fact is you can duo tank with just about any two jobs.

    There are very few situations, if any, where War is the best tank past 40. Sam/War for example can duo tank just as efficiently, if not moreso, then War/Nin as they have more on demand burst damage, similar if not better defensive stats, a built in damage mitigation ability and never have to worry about shadow recasts. Hell, a Sam/Nin can tank efficiently too, even without voke a good sam can build a lot of hate right off the bat, and negate/evade/mitigate far more damage much easier then War can. Even two Thfs can duo tank off each other post 60, assuming they're good (it's a lot of fun btw).

    While yes, it's true two wars can duo tank, as far as I'm concerned, many jobs can duo tank in an Exp party. The problem is, War was supposed to be one of the main tanks in the game. It's part of their whole concept, they can either be extreme offense or extreme defense. While they can do the offense thing easy enough, their defensive abilities are laughable at best.

    Originally posted by Mezlo View Post
    Ziero and Ifrit, I think you guys are saying the same things, you're just choosing different ways of saying it, nit-picking at details of the other persons post.
    Probably. It's monday and I'm bored, cranky and tired so I guess I'm a bit more dickish then usual. All I'm trying to say that while War can duo tank, it's really nothing special about War.

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  • Mezlo
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Ziero and Ifrit, I think you guys are saying the same things, you're just choosing different ways of saying it, nit-picking at details of the other persons post.

    Leave a comment:


  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by Ziero View Post
    Because the exceptions make the rule, mirite?
    Er, the point is that different situations have different tanking(-like) needs, and WARs often meet those needs.

    I like duo tanking, by the way; you may not consider it 'true' tanking, but it is often the better way to do things.

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  • Ziero
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    hmmm. Last night on Sarameya, we used two PLD/NINs to tank. So, duo tanking--which is far more effective than solo tanking--but the two of us PLDs weren't really tanking? Darn.
    Because the exceptions make the rule, mirite?

    Point is:
    Solo Pld tank against 90% of the mobs in the game, excluding certain NMs/HNMs = highly viable, and very effective.
    Solo War tank against 90% of the mobs in the game, excluding certain NMs/HNMs = bring a towel cause things will be messy.

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    It really depends on the level and the situation. In the jungles fighting Mandragora, a single WAR/MNK can pretty much out tank any and all. At Lv.75, a single WAR/NIN can shoulder most of the tanking duty in Nyzul Isle and such.

    In a lot of Dynamis LS's, WAR is used as backup or even main /assist. Not sure if that qualifies as tanking, though.
    1) Mandies, and pre-30 in general is a horrible example of tanking capabilities. I've solo tanked many times on every job I've taken to 37. That includes Drk, Mnk, Thf and Nin. Pre-30, especially on mandies, any job can pretty much tank.

    2) I've already stated that War's real problems in tanking come post 40, where the jobs start realizing their specific specializations and other tank jobs gain better defensive and enmity building abilities where War gets nothing.

    3) Any melee job can effectively tank most things in Nyzul, they're mainly DC mobs for cripes sake. But in my experiences, War actually tanks worse then Blu, Sam, Mnk, Dnc and hell even Thf. But holding hate for 30 seconds isn't exactly tanking, and Nyzul in and of itself actually works against one of War's more unique "tanking" abilities, Retaliate.

    And no, being main assist in Dynamis doesn't count as tanking.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by Ziero View Post
    If the only way a class can tank effectively is by duo-tanking...then to me, that class isn't actually tanking at all.
    hmmm. Last night on Sarameya, we used two PLD/NINs to tank. So, duo tanking--which is far more effective than solo tanking--but the two of us PLDs weren't really tanking? Darn.


    Originally posted by Ziero View Post
    Hopefully the new JA SE claimed they'll be giving War will bring it back to the top 3 as far as tanks go, because right now, it's not even in the top five imo.
    It really depends on the level and the situation. In the jungles fighting Mandragora, a single WAR/MNK can pretty much out tank any and all. At Lv.75, a single WAR/NIN can shoulder most of the tanking duty in Nyzul Isle and such.

    In a lot of Dynamis LS's, WAR is used as backup or even main /assist. Not sure if that qualifies as tanking, though.

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  • Ziero
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    From my personal experiences, no matter how hard I tried, being a solo War tank is always going to be painful past 40. You are just losing too much hate way too fast and only have all of one real unique hate making tool which wears off before it's recast is even up from my understanding.

    I mean yea, War's are supposed to be all "they hold hate through damage!" and crap, but it's hard to hold hate with Damage when the DDs are doing just as much, if not more, damage then you. When your only hate building tool is the same tool that half your party is using...but more effectively...it makes it hard to really keep hate.

    I know, I know "but u haz provoke lulz!" Provoke's hate is all Volatile Enmity with no actual Cumulative Enmity. Meaning it wears off on it's own over time instead of steadily building up on the monster. One Provoke causes about 1800VE which decays on it's own at 60VE per second. Meaning after 30 seconds, the effect of Provoke is completely gone. Meaning the only real way for a War to actually build hate is to do damage, which other melee jobs can do just as well. And since you're the only one getting hit, those melee jobs will end up with more hate then you really quick.

    If the only way a class can tank effectively is by duo-tanking...then to me, that class isn't actually tanking at all. Hopefully the new JA SE claimed they'll be giving War will bring it back to the top 3 as far as tanks go, because right now, it's not even in the top five imo.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by cidbahamut View Post
    And I'm saying DD is theonly thing they bring to the table in my experience.
    I didn't say those were very smart WARs. heh. Anyway, I maintain WAR/NIN should not solo tank, and should not be eating defense food.

    WAR/MNK is a different story; depending on the target and level gap to the target, can tank with attack food with Defender up, or defensive food with Berserk up when appropriate, or Defender with defense food. And, yes, WAR/MNK can solo tank--but often require two healers to minimize over-stressing a single healer and his MP.

    WARs should always prepare a defensive set of gears regardless, but those who needs to hear that the most don't browse FFXI forums...

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  • cidbahamut
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    A WAR/NIN needs DD gear to tank. And, should macro switch to defensive gears when Utsusemi is down.
    And I'm saying DD is theonly thing they bring to the table in my experience. I don't see warriors with tanking builds, and I certainly don't see them swapping into them when shadows are down.

    Everyone's so hyper-focused on their damage output that they don't even bother trying to find a balance between offense and defense. Yes you'll hold hate better, yes you'll kill faster which presumably means more exp/hour. But damn are you making your healer's life hell by not being able to take a hit.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by Takelli View Post
    lol. Of all the nins that use these, they have held hate better than most of the other nins that don't use them.

    Yes, the recast, and casting time for them are rediculisously long, but they pull more hate towards the ninja.
    The Ichi enfeebs are 80CE, 240VE, and 4 second cast time; not impressive as enmity tool. (Ni level has same enmity but half the cast time, making them much more worthwhile. Plus, Hojo: Ni is the strongest Slow effect in the game (not counting song effect) until RDM has Slow II.)

    NIN tanks by damage: Lv.40+, if a NIN wants enmity, Ni level elemental wheel is where it's that. Before that, shuriken is a strong (but expensive) way to go.

    Here's a Lv.45-48 example:

    Damage Summary
    Player................Total Dmg...Damage %...Melee Dmg...Range Dmg...Abil. Dmg..WSkill Dmg...Spell Dmg Other Dmg
    Itazura (NIN/WAR).........54714....23.74 %.......23614...........0.........191........5639......25270.......0
    MNK/WAR...................51470....22.33 %.......38457...........0.........673.......11411..........0.....929
    SAM/WAR...................46968....20.38 %.......36930...........0...........0.......10038..........0.......0
    PUP/WAR...................28214....12.24 %.......23195...........0...........0........5019..........0.......0
    (automaton)...............42901....18.61 %.......15156.......18369...........0........9376..........0.......0


    Between the Provoke and the damage output, you can easily see I had the critter locked down most of the time. (The MNK/WAR was stupid; he'd WS with Berserk up before the second Provoke, so got hit a lot, but I always get it back on the second Provoke.)

    Ichi level Enfeebs are for helping Utsusemi last longer and for making casting Utsusemi: Ichi easier. For enmity, damage is where the game is.
    Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 03-15-2010, 09:54 AM.

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  • Durahansolo
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by Takelli View Post
    lol. Of all the nins that use these, they have held hate better than most of the other nins that don't use them.
    Are you talking ele-wheel wise or enfeeb wise? When I was leveling NIN in early levels, I used to carry blind, but it was useless because by the time I got it casted, the WHM or RDM had already casted the spell so mine had no effect. Elewheel would probably be more effective at holding hate unless like Ifrit said "the enfeeblers are not enfeebling".

    Originally posted by Truece View Post
    Letting the WAR know that they're gonna be tanking prior to heading to camp can do wonders.
    This! This is up there with waiting until everybody gets to the party before realizing "OH MY GAWD WE HAZ NO PULLR!" Of course to save space I left my bow/arrow at home because I came as DD WAR carrying a bomb core in my ammo slot.

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  • Takelli
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    If talking about Ichi enfeebs, the only real reason to use them is when the RDM, SCH, BLM, or WHM in party are stupid. The cast time for those are long enough that if a back line job can do the corresponding enfeeb, the NIN should not spend the time on them
    lol. Of all the nins that use these, they have held hate better than most of the other nins that don't use them.

    Yes, the recast, and casting time for them are rediculisously long, but they pull more hate towards the ninja.
    Originally posted by IfritnoItazura View Post
    If talking about Ichi enfeebs, the only real reason to use them is when the RDM, SCH, BLM, or WHM in party are stupid. The cast time for those are long enough that if a back line job can do the corresponding enfeeb, the NIN should not spend the time on them
    Dunes, and qufim they can solo tank, after that, they need some one to co-tank with them until later 60s, even then, they may need some help.

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  • Neverslip
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    I have had alot of success with War/Nin tanking when there's a Thf to bounce the hate like hot potato around to where it needs to be. Course the Thf has to kinda know wtf they are doing and the rest of the party (Brd, Cor, Pup etc) needs to know to get the F outta the way of the SATAs. The lvl 65 skills a Thf gets can make this "hate potato" game even more interesting.

    ... add Dnc/Nin (not as a GD puller) to the equasion and it should be golden.

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  • ItazuraNhomango
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Originally posted by Takelli View Post
    The warriors came with great axes, and shared hate. They took barely any damage the entire time. The only time they lost hate when when I did a mass Divine Waltz, or the whm flashed (Which they stopped after a while.).
    These two WARs sucked if the WHM can consistently get the monsters' attention with Flash; the monsters should be locked down by the second Provoke (of each WAR).

    A DNC/NIN and a WAR/NIN should be able to co-tank.

    Originally posted by cidbahamut View Post
    Some of the ones I've had were pretty good while others couldn't tank their way out of a paper bag. Part of the problem is that people often gear warrior as a DD rather than a tank, and the only thing they do in the way of damage mitigation is to /nin for shadows, which they do sloppily.
    A WAR/NIN needs DD gear to tank. And, should macro switch to defensive gears when Utsusemi is down. WAR/NIN without a co-tank isn't a good idea, in my experience.

    Originally posted by Takelli View Post
    Lol. a lot of ninjas suck, mainly because they don't cast their other ninjutsu. Like the slow, blind, and paralyze spells. They can't hold hate because they don't utilize them, or they cant deal any damage at all.
    If talking about Ichi enfeebs, the only real reason to use them is when the RDM, SCH, BLM, or WHM in party are stupid. The cast time for those are long enough that if a back line job can do the corresponding enfeeb, the NIN should not spend the time on them.

    It's actually not that easy or intuitive to gear NIN for DD at lower levels; it's not obvious to most people that up to maybe Lv.32, it's better to main-hand a good sword than to use katana.



    Originally posted by Takelli View Post
    Usually, I have a dancer in the party as well with an alternative tank, as it helps save mp for the healer. But the ones that are good, have a good eva set, or a good defense set up, and eat defense food. They work well when done correctly.
    WAR with evasion set... Er... No thanks.

    Again, low level WAR/NIN should not solo-tank. And, if co-tanking, should be on attack/accuracy food.
    Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 03-15-2010, 08:50 AM.

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  • Truece
    replied
    Re: Alternative tank: Warrior

    Letting the WAR know that they're gonna be tanking prior to heading to camp can do wonders. Personally, see this thread for my experiences tanking on WAR 40-60ish:

    http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/war...-48-50-gc.html

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