[Truece]

Recently, I had the opportunity to join an XP party as WAR/DNC. The party was built with me as the tank. The PT was from 48-50 and the setup was:

WAR/DNC
MNK/WAR
SAM/NIN
WHM/BLM
RDM/BLM
BLM/WHM

We were in the basement of Garlaige fighting beetles and bats. I was also the puller. I was eating Bream Sushi. I was not well-geared for DEF or VIT. The only merits which were useful to me were my Critical Hit merits. I kept Defender up all of the time.

I was able to set the hate line very high by using provoke, waltzes on myself or others (although the amount healed by the waltz was less than the average hit from the mob), drain samba, quick step (to generate FMs), Animated Flourish (when the mob turned and voke wasn't ready), and Warcry (for when the MNK and SAM were about to SC). I did not use any weaponskills, unless I was starting the fight near the end of the chain with more than 100% TP.

I found that I was using a JA of some sort every 2-3 swings, which made the time fly by very quickly. I really had to pay attention to my TP as I wanted to just spam waltzes on myself, which left me not hitting the mob enough.

I required a lot of healing.

PT evolved to:
BLM -> PLD/WAR
WAR
MNK
SAM
RDM -> DNC/NIN
WHM

After the PLD joined, and the RDM left, I changed to a DD/puller role and ate Rice Dumplings or Meat Mithkabobs. I felt that I could've probably held hate equal to the PLD, had I wanted to (in his defense, I didn't give him a lot of time to recover MP between pulls. All things considered, I thought he did a good job w/o refresh). It seemed as though the SAM and MNK would pull hate far more often than when I was tanking.

Gear:
Main: Gigant Axe
Sub: Brass Grip +1
Ammo: Fortune Egg / Dart (for pulling when PLD arrived)
Head: Walkure Mask
Neck: Spike Necklace
Ear: Beetle+1 x2
Body: Brigandine
Hands: Royal Squire's
Rings: Courage Ring/Sniper's Ring
Back: Nomad's Mantle
Waist: Life Belt
Legs: Republic Subligar
Feet: Plate Leggings

I look forward to trying this again soon. I think it blows solo /NIN tanking out of the water (at least at my current level), but I would consider 2x /NIN tanks. Perhaps if I had DEF food and/or adjusted my gear a bit (high breath mantle, higher DEF, etc), I could set the hate line higher while getting by with less healing support. Would an avenger's earring have helped at all for a few counter procs here and there, or is it really useless w/o a true 'counter' build? I am looking forward to trying this again very soon. I also look forward to trying with some AF and retaliation when I ding 60 ^^.

[Icemage]

For WAR/DNC, I think I'd have opted for 1h Axe + Shield (Hard Shield would be a good choice at 48, since it's the first Size 3 shield Warriors get access to). The damage mitigation of a shield can't be beat at that level, and you don't sacrifice accuracy or TP gain in the process. It'll also help you keep up more with the damage versus Waltz/Samba.

I'm not sure if your DEF could have improved any more if you were in Defender full-time. It's worth testing with some DEF food, especially if it lets you stay out of Defender for short bursts (especially if you need to swap into Berserk to regain control of hate).

For enmity-gaining purposes, I'd use a Mermaid's Ring in one of the ring slots, and an activated High Breath Mantle in the back slot. If you've got money to burn, a Nemesis Earring in one slot can add a bit more punch to your actions, too.

Making these small changes should improve your tanking efficiency by quite a bit without making too many sacrifices along the way.


Icemage

[Celeal]

It sounds a lot of fun, great job ^^b

Added:
Viking Axe + Hard Shield may be a good option for WAR/DNC tanking at level 48 too (keep both G.Axe and Axe skill capped)

Instead of Avenger Earring for counter-attack, IMHO counter-attack is not reliable. I would swapping out Sniper Ring with another rings for tanking too, since curing is the outstanding issue.

[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Celeal

Instead of Avenger Earring for counter-attack, IMHO counter-attack is not reliable. I would swapping out Sniper Ring with another rings for tanking too, since curing is the outstanding issue.

Woodsman is the same price and evasion won't matter when you're tanking with Aggressor...
Avenger's earrings are typically considered useless but you have to think... if there were an earring with "physical damage taken -1%"... wouldn't every meat tank wear it? If so, then that's pretty much what 1% counterattack rate amounts to.

While pre-60, it's true that you don't have Retaliation to abuse for super TP rates... one handed axe means giving up the extra 50% (or whatever that amounts to be) attack and acc from STR and DEX, respectively. Viking axe will cover the acc gap, at least... so you're looking at a large chunk of missed attack to gain a large chunk of damage reduction -- if your C rank shield can work out well enough.

In fact, @54 I think axe/shield could be quite nice with AF hands giving +10 shield skill (and lovely enmity, of course).

Nitpick: no Nemesis earrings for Warrior.

I think sushi/defender was probably a nice way to go... but your attack is really suffering with that combo (and swapping to axe will worsen it -- definitely go GA if you fight crabs).

Since Sushi adds so much acc, you should consider simply using 2x Phalanx rings. Just trading out the Pub Sub (painful in light of my previous section) for Mythril / I.M. Cuisses will net you 16 higher defense. With 2x Phalanx rings, you're probably getting very close to the amount of defense Defender adds.

[Truece]

I guess I'll have to pick up a hard shield and give this axe/shield combo a test. I chose to use G.Axe since my axe skill is slightly behind.

Also, I could probably find gear to macro in for more potent waltzes. But, since this was a 'test run' I didn't want to spend a whole lot of time/money just to find out that the combo sucks. Next time, I will be better prepared!

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Originally Posted by Truece

After the PLD joined, and the RDM left, I changed to a DD/puller role and ate Rice Dumplings or Meat Mithkabobs. I felt that I could've probably held hate equal to the PLD, had I wanted to (in his defense, I didn't give him a lot of time to recover MP between pulls. All things considered, I thought he did a good job w/o refresh). It seemed as though the SAM and MNK would pull hate far more often than when I was tanking.

Perhaps the MNK and SAM decided to hold back their damage output less because they had more confidence in a PLD tank? I'm not saying that their confidence in this particular PLD is justified. Just saying that the DDs taking hate more often isn't necessarily due to the PLD not generating as much hate as you when you were tank.

Originally Posted by Lmnop

Avenger's earrings are typically considered useless but you have to think... if there were an earring with "physical damage taken -1%"... wouldn't every meat tank wear it? If so, then that's pretty much what 1% counterattack rate amounts to.

I'm not sure that every meat tank would wear an earring that granted physical damage taken -1%. It would probably depend on what other options you have available in that same slot for a given level.

How often do you see a PLD wearing Darksteel armor at lvl 65 instead of AF?

[Celeal]

Originally Posted by LyonheartLakshmi

Perhaps the MNK and SAM decided to hold back their damage output less because they had more confidence in a PLD tank? I'm not saying that their confidence in this particular PLD is justified. Just saying that the DDs taking hate more often isn't necessarily due to the PLD not generating as much hate as you when you were tank.

IMHO, it is hard to say. Divine Waltz's (Curaga) hate can be very potent when applied correctly. We are comparing a PLD/WAR without party's Refresh to a WAR/DNC. In this case, I expect the WAR/DNC can recover his resource faster than the PLD/WAR w/o Refresh in the long run.

And don't forget Drain Samba is a very cheap Regen for the DDs if the DD's hate level is close to the tank.

[Truece]

Originally Posted by LyonheartLakshmi

Perhaps the MNK and SAM decided to hold back their damage output less because they had more confidence in a PLD tank? I'm not saying that their confidence in this particular PLD is justified. Just saying that the DDs taking hate more often isn't necessarily due to the PLD not generating as much hate as you when you were tank.

This could be. I guess I was too busy patting myself on the back to think about it this way.

Originally Posted by Celeal

IMHO, it is hard to say. Divine Waltz's (Curaga) hate can be very potent when applied correctly. We are comparing a PLD/WAR without party's Refresh to a WAR/DNC. In this case, I expect the WAR/DNC can recover his resource faster than the PLD/WAR w/o Refresh in the long run.

The only way to know for sure would be to go toe-to-toe with a PLD/WAR (or /DNC) and see who can generate more hate. It just so happens that I know a 50 PLD, and I'm positive he'd help me out. Maybe get a healer, the PLD, and myself in a PT and go to town on some Tough mobs, trying for chains between 2-4, and see who has better control of enmity.

Originally Posted by Celeal

And don't forget Drain Samba is a very cheap Regen for the DDs if the DD's hate level is close to the tank.

When the PLD and DNC joined, I stopped using Drain Samba I in favor of the DNC's Drain Samba II (or maybe it was Haste Samba... I don't recall). But, with a WHM, DNC, and /DNC, we were able to keep people healthy even when MP started to get a little low.

Originally Posted by LyonheartLakshmi

I'm not sure that every meat tank would wear an earring that granted physical damage taken -1%. It would probably depend on what other options you have available in that same slot for a given level.

I love when I go /MNK and see big numbers from counters. Since we're (re)breaking new ground here, I think I may just have to try it out. I think I can get by without one of the Beetle Earrings. The thought of shielding/parrying/countering all while having the ability to self-cure and an extra provoke really makes me want to try this job combination out even more!

[Celeal]

TBH, if WAR/DNC tanking is functional in exp. parties, I don't really care which job combo is the best tank (PLD/WAR, NIN/WAR, etc)

As for PLD/WAR as exp. tank, I don't consider it as *complete* until level 70, when PLD/WAR finally get Warcry JA. (This is just my opinion)

As the level gets higher, the exp. tanking game is shifting toward speed and endurance.

[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Truece

The only way to know for sure would be to go toe-to-toe with a PLD/WAR (or /DNC) and see who can generate more hate. It just so happens that I know a 50 PLD, and I'm positive he'd help me out. Maybe get a healer, the PLD, and myself in a PT and go to town on some Tough mobs, trying for chains between 2-4, and see who has better control of enmity.

Unfortunately, even this would be a bit unfair. Against T mobs, you'll both be doing more damage... but you'll be doing more... more. In times past, Paladins everywhere gave up on being full time tank against anything weak as the DDs just get so much higher hate from their damage... while the PLD only gets marginally more (this assumes a mostly turtle Paladin, though).

So on the one hand I'd say this tips the scales in favor of the war/dnc... but on the other hand, this is precisely what a burn party would feel like (which you'll start doing as of 55... but not 'til 60 as /dnc since tanking colibri is a no-no). So maybe this would be an interesting contest... though in all likelihood, it wouldn't prove a whole lot. Just Provoke and Warrior-level damage is enough for hate to be "satisfactory"... let PLDs be enmity king.

The real issue here, is how far can a party continue to chain with a war/dnc tank? Can you take care of yourself enough that the toll on mage's MP is equal to or less than their mp recovery rate?

Also... a single Avenger's Earring really will be like .95% counter rate. No, that's not a typo -- less than 1% of your foe's attacks will be countered. What it boils down to is there's nothing in the earring slot that will make a real, parse-able difference (excepting maybe +8 attack between the 2 slots).

[Celeal]

Actually, when merit on Greater Colibri as PLD/DNC, the TP reset move isn't a big issue: just spend TP on dances before the TP reset kicks in ----- 10TP per Steps, 35TP Curing Waltz II, 25TP per Drain Samba II, or 10TP per Aspir Samba. By the time the Colibri used its TP reset move on my PLD/DNC, I didn't have not much TP anyway... XD

What actually hurt the most is my Flash got reflected. That really hurt my TP gain for PLD/DNC.

[Truece]

Originally Posted by Lmnop

Unfortunately, even this would be a bit unfair. Against T mobs, you'll both be doing more damage... but you'll be doing more... more. In times past, Paladins everywhere gave up on being full time tank against anything weak as the DDs just get so much higher hate from their damage... while the PLD only gets marginally more (this assumes a mostly turtle Paladin, though).

So on the one hand I'd say this tips the scales in favor of the war/dnc... but on the other hand, this is precisely what a burn party would feel like (which you'll start doing as of 55... but not 'til 60 as /dnc since tanking colibri is a no-no). So maybe this would be an interesting contest... though in all likelihood, it wouldn't prove a whole lot. Just Provoke and Warrior-level damage is enough for hate to be "satisfactory"... let PLDs be enmity king.

The real issue here, is how far can a party continue to chain with a war/dnc tank? Can you take care of yourself enough that the toll on mage's MP is equal to or less than their mp recovery rate?

Our party was getting to chain 4 fairly regularly. Perhaps we could've gone farther, but there was a lot of competition for mobs.

I would suggest that I needed 2 healers to pull this off successfully. One may have been enough to keep me alive, but with all of his/her cure-bombing, it could have been dangerous. IMHO, backline healer + DNC + WAR tank = fun times!

As for which job is the better tank, I guess I don't really care. If I can function as a tank when there isn't a PLD or NIN available, GREAT! If we get a (forgive me) real tank in the party later (as we did in this party) then I have no problems switching foods and becoming a DD.

I give WAR/DNC:

[Truece]

I had an opportunity to try round 2 (in 2 parts): 52-53 in QC (beetles/ants) and 53-54 Kuftal (crabs).

WAR/DNC
MNK/NIN
DNC/NIN
DNC/NIN
DRG/WAR
WHM/BLM

I had an opportunity to raise my axe skill a little, and wanted to see how well shield procs would help, so I opted to go axe/shield. I ate Tav. Tacos and had defender up full-time. My gear selection was the same as above, except for using Viking Axe/Hard Shield instead of G.Axe/grip. The mobs were mostly VT, with the occasional T and maybe an IT thrown in. We were chaining and killing very fast. The only real chain-stoppers were lack of mobs, or PLD ants ><.

As long as I had a few finishing moves available at the start of the fight, things would go relatively smoothly. The MNK would tend to just use his Raging Fists whenever he had the TP, even before I could get a voke in (ie 'voke timer wasn't ready, and all I had was animated flourish). I wonder if he had some +enmity merits, as he was the only one giving me problems with hate.

After most of the party dinged 53, and xp started to get really slow, we decided to move to Kuftal tunnel and camp at the Cape Terrigan zoneline. The lack of dispel was a big concern, but we moved out there anyways.

I continued using Tav. Tacos and Axe/shield at the start of this camp, too, but found that I was hitting for 0 way too much to accumulate enough TP to use steps and have flourish available. The dancers would alternate between Haste/Drain II sambas, favoring Haste. As a result, I switched to G.Axe. Eventually, the MNK replaced himself with a RDM and the PT really started to roll. With my higher accuracy (near-cap G.Axe skill), I was able to keep my finishing moves up and settled into a very nice hate-generating routine of:

Provoke > quick step > waltz > Flourish > quick step > waltz > Provoke > ...

This would give me a Provoke or 'voke lite' every 15 seconds, which did wonders for the hate threshold. I didn't feel like I had to worry about the WHM or RDM casting a Cure IV on me. At one point, a link happened, and I found myself voking one mob, and using flourish on the slept mob. When we killed the first, and woke the second, all it took was a single 'voke to get it to come after me instead of the RDM after 3 sleep IIs.

After I fell into the routine of keeping hate, I found that the DNCs also found a comfortable routine to keep me healed up, basically alternating waltzes on me. The end result was that the RDM and WHM were sitting on very comfy MP pools. We probably could've done without one of the DNC in favor of a BLM or another DD.

I tried using Sushi, Dumplings, and Mithkabobs as well as not having Defender up full-time, but I wasn't comfortable with the amount of damage that I was taking on average to stay away from tacos/defender. Even though my damage output was a bit lower, I felt that it was less of a burden on the rest of the PT to keep me alive.

I still believe that WAR/DNC needs to have a healer AND backup healer for the PT to flow. WHM/SCH/RDM as main healer with DNC as a backup is a perfect combination. 2 Dancers may be overkill, though.

I look forward to trying this again, especially after I get to equip my AF gloves next level for the +10 shield skill. Plus, I have since skilled up my axe to near-cap which should also help me hit accurately.

Side note: /DNC is a great way to skill up! I was able to go from 106-150 on EP/DC beetles, ants, goblins, and dhalmels in the deserts with no downtime!

[Icemage]

^
Note to the above: Dhalmels + solo = bad idea unless you have access to Erase or Cocoon. Sonic Wave + Stomping will leave you eating dirt, even from an "Easy Prey" Dhalmel.

---

Did you find that the shield was reducing your damage noticeably? Defender's big drawback is the ATK penalty, so the odd hit for 0 will happen if your 1H Axe skill isn't up to snuff, but I don't really see why you'd hit for 0 with capped Axe skill on non-Crabs (who not only have Scissor Guard for DEF UP, but are Paladin types with absurd amounts of VIT and base DEF).


Icemage

[Celeal]

IMHO, should not expect much without Dispel on Crabs at 50+ range. As the OP said, once the RDM joined the party, exp. starts to roll.

Great job Truece ^^b It is nice to be the pioneer of new job combo :D