mnk/war , mnk/thf all the way, best all around frontliner

[laicram]

Originally posted by Ghostraven

Sorry. you will see the difference at around 40 or so when fighting IT beetles and crawlers. Let's not mention exorays.. Darkspore anyone? Silence Gas? :sweat:

When I was War45, My Defense would shoot up to 327 with Defender for 3 minutes, with a 3 minute cooldown. A Paladin pre-50 can only simluate that with Sentinel, which lasts 30 seconds, with a 5 minute cooldown. Until Pal gets Defender, a War built to tank has better defense.

Bleah, it doesn't matter. Pals will always get picked before Wars for tanking - even when the numbers (pre-50) prove otherwise.

[Durahan]

Actually, my defense is around 330 with protect and fish miths...

[Shann_Phoenix]

If you hit 4 times with a sword for once with a GA you'll deal the same dmg and with a sword you will give the mob much more tp to use specials on you.

Best dmg at 25 is great axe no contest, sturmwind ws combined with double attack will score the higher dmg of all weapons.

Chosing the best tank isn't just about the raw defense stats, pld are chosen 1st even if they have less def than a war on defender because they can hold hate much better with voke/flash/cures than a war/mnk with voke/boost. From about 45-55 it's hard for a war tank to keep hate on his own, but i heard things go better once you get the +15 enmity of the AF. Pld always have more tools to hold hate than wars, so that's why they will be picked 1st to tank.

[LoneWarriorNY]

ahhh...im startin to give in to pld/war since tanking IS what im best at...i (as well as alot of other people at this "splitting point" of 25-30 i see on here) am just kinda pissed at the limited scope in terms of flexibility that has been placed on several main/sub job combos in this game.

You should be able to have a choice of either 2 job/sub combos for every purpose. In other words, my war/thf or war/mnk, if properly built by me, should be able to outtank pld's at any lvl....and a pld should be able to have the option of either straight tanking, or sacrifice a little defense for more attack power. Need more than 1 healing job in my opinion also...heard someone mention alchemist, i like that idea.

im not going to rant though...but i think the issue with mages being much more effective against HNM's and such is the responsibility of enix.....the only non-mage job i see that doesnt get outdated no matter what the lvl or enemy is pld/war. Not really into having 3 subs to interchange with my war, or 2 subs with my drk...takes too much time, and draws too much focus away from my main task for me....

like i said, probably going to wind up pld/war , but really wish some updates will open up a tad more flexibility

i know im not alone on this either...ppl are sick of seeing the SAME fuckin things over and over and over....would like to create MY kind of character, not one that has been pre-chosen.

[Ginthaeriel]

Originally posted by laicram


When I was War45, My Defense would shoot up to 327 with Defender for 3 minutes, with a 3 minute cooldown. A Paladin pre-50 can only simluate that with Sentinel, which lasts 30 seconds, with a 5 minute cooldown. Until Pal gets Defender, a War built to tank has better defense.

Bleah, it doesn't matter. Pals will always get picked before Wars for tanking - even when the numbers (pre-50) prove otherwise.

You forget our defensive passives that we get :/

[laicram]

Originally posted by Durahan
Actually, my defense is around 330 with protect and fish miths...

Originally posted by Ginthaeriel


You forget our defensive passives that we get :/

Mmm, 330 def at Pal48 w/o Defender - guess I should've asked some top-notch pals what they got, before I ran my mouth =D Is that with Sentinel? I'm assuming no.

I hadn't forgotten about passive defense 2, or better shields, or a possible difference in Vit...

I just made a big assumption that Defender would beat it cleanly. Looking now at Durahan's post, I see the defense for Wars and Pals in top form looks roughly the same - with Sentinel beating out War during it's 30 second duration.

(This is between lvls 45-49 for those just tuning in)

[Ginthaeriel]

Originally posted by laicram




Mmm, 330 def at Pal48 w/o Defender - guess I should've asked some top-notch pals what they got, before I ran my mouth =D
Is that with Sentinel? I'm assuming no.

I hadn't forgotten about passive defense 2, or better shields, or a possible difference in Vit...

I just made a big assumption that Defender would beat it cleanly. Looking now at Durahan's post, I see the defense for Wars and Pals in top form looks roughly the same - with Sentinel beating out War during it's 30 second duration.

(This is between lvls 45-49 for those just tuning in)

w/o sentinel my defense caps at 310 to 320 or so (with royal squire's gear, heater shield, IM armet, plate set gear for everything else and a total of +15 VIT including food VIT bonus and with fishkabobs and protect II def bonuses on... basically normal combat conditions). I never really check it with sentinel because it lasts so short and I'm always in the middle of battle when I'm using it so I don't have time.

But from what I notice, sentinel shaves off about 5-10 damage a hit on me normally.

I hope this helps :sweat:

[Halato]

Post 60 everything changes for a warrior.

I partied with a 60 galka war/nin... all I could say was wow. His damage was absolutely absurd and with all that +emnity all we had to do was wait for his 2nd voke and cut loose.

4 hours of exping and I think he lost hate 5 times total. He had the biggest hit of the day (795) and truthfully outperformed any PLD I've ever PT'ed with.

I love my monk... but everytime I party with a warrior post 60, I really, really, really want to play one again.

Warrior AF changes everything.

[SurrealRogue]

Originally posted by laicram

Mmm, 330 def at Pal48 w/o Defender - guess I should've asked some top-notch pals what they got, before I ran my mouth =D Is that with Sentinel? I'm assuming no.

I hadn't forgotten about passive defense 2, or better shields, or a possible difference in Vit...

I just made a big assumption that Defender would beat it cleanly. Looking now at Durahan's post, I see the defense for Wars and Pals in top form looks roughly the same - with Sentinel beating out War during it's 30 second duration.

(This is between lvls 45-49 for those just tuning in)

Here's some numbers for you to crunch :p

At level 43 pld, I'm hitting 301 defense with boiled crab and protect2. And as a Mithra, my gear is more towards Vit>hp>def so other pld's will have more defense than I will.

Gear
Honor Sword, Heater Shield, Happy Egg, IM Armet, Holy Phial, Drone Earring, Mercenary's Earring, Earth Doublet, Ogygos's Bracelets, Stamina Ring +1 (x2), Cavalier's Mantle, Warrior's Belt +1, Cuisses, Plate Leggings

This nets me 220 Defense and +20 vitality before buffs and food. Add in Prot2 +25 def and Boiled Crab +56 def and +4 vitality for 301 defense +24 vit.

Unfortunately I do not have my Warrior leveled up to 43 (yet) or I'd be able to post the other side for Defender. However, I'd like to point out that not only would most warrior's not carry the same gear, some pieces are unavailable for wars to use. ie: shield and earring. Also, even warriors who gear themselves to tank, rarely get as much vitality as a pld, as they are more concerned with hitting more often and harder in order to help keep agro. But if anyone has similar gear and can post their numbers, I'd like to see how it compares with defender.

Another pointless post by yours truly.... :sweat:

[GSDragoon]

Originally posted by SurrealRogue


Here's some numbers for you to crunch :p

At level 43 pld, I'm hitting 301 defense with boiled crab and protect2. And as a Mithra, my gear is more towards Vit>hp>def so other pld's will have more defense than I will.

Gear
Honor Sword, Heater Shield, Happy Egg, IM Armet, Holy Phial, Drone Earring, Mercenary's Earring, Earth Doublet, Ogygos's Bracelets, Stamina Ring +1 (x2), Cavalier's Mantle, Warrior's Belt +1, Cuisses, Plate Leggings

This nets me 220 Defense and +20 vitality before buffs and food. Add in Prot2 +25 def and Boiled Crab +56 def and +4 vitality for 301 defense +24 vit.

Unfortunately I do not have my Warrior leveled up to 43 (yet) or I'd be able to post the other side for Defender. However, I'd like to point out that not only would most warrior's not carry the same gear, some pieces are unavailable for wars to use. ie: shield and earring. Also, even warriors who gear themselves to tank, rarely get as much vitality as a pld, as they are more concerned with hitting more often and harder in order to help keep agro. But if anyone has similar gear and can post their numbers, I'd like to see how it compares with defender.

Another pointless post by yours truly.... :sweat:

Some WAR numbers to crunch:

Made a quick profile for my lv42 WAR with tanking equipment. (Axe is not leveled up yet) http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?24161

My base defence is 186. It jumps to 232 with defender (243 with a balance buckler). That's with no food or protects.

[laicram]

The numbers ppl have been posting are pretty consistent. To sum it up...

Pal vs War tanking mid game (25-50)
Pals natural defense is higher than Wars.
Wars using Defender beats that value. (If equipped to tank)
Pal def catches up to War w/Defender around the early 40s.

Pal vs War tanking post-50
Pals out-tank Wars at 50 with Defender, and better hate-keeping tools.
Wars still usable tank with proper gear, and help with hate management. (Thf for Trick, and Rngs and Blms can always ease off)

[SurrealRogue]

So really, equal gear aside, the biggest difference in a war vs pld tank 30-50 would be Flash and the odd cure. A war can work around this with a good thief for Fuidama.

Given this difference, a War can tank equally well as a paladin (without refresh), although they need a thief for fuidama, to make up for Flash.

Good to know for when I'm leveling War ^^

[Tomatoes]

Originally posted by laicram
The numbers ppl have been posting are pretty consistent. To sum it up...

Pal vs War tanking mid game (25-50)
Pals natural defense is higher than Wars.
Wars using Defender beats that value. (If equipped to tank)
Pal def catches up to War w/Defender around the early 40s.

I think PLD still has higher VIT in this situation, and War using Defender hits about as soft as PLD. And then PLD still has more hate control tools at 25-50.

Dun get me wrong, I enjoyed outtanking the PLD in Yhoator also, but there's no way I would consider myself a better tank than a good PLD in Garlaige and Crawler's Nest.

[GSDragoon]

I'd like to add that, so far, I 99% of the time don't tank with defender on. It hurts my attack too much that I can't keep hate. It could be that I play with DRK's that go souleater happy, THF's that can't get the TA off on me right, or BLM's that chaincast like madd cause we have RDM refreshing or a BRD with ballad. If I'm tanking without defender, my hits are usually pretty good which is a plus over PLD tanks. Just wish there was something else besides Boost and provoke to keep hate. Warcry is only every 5 minutes. WAR's make great backup tanks if you have a THF in the party, but so far, I haven't been able to renkei with the THF where they end with the big hit.

[laicram]

GSDragoon,
I didn't use Defender in Khazham because I was noob and Mandras are cake.
Since then I've been an uber-tank. I use the best def/vit gear possible for my lvl. I eat Fish Kabobs, and use Defender. It works!
About hate, I tank every chance I get. Losing aggro - to the point where it's bad, only occurs when I draw a bad PT.

I looked at your gear link, if you are having trouble holding aggro, try switching out the Drone earrings for Beetle +1. An pickup the Cavalier Mantle for the Higher Def and Vit+2. Compensate for all the evasion- with Dodge =O


Tomatoes,
I see how the idea of War being an "equal or better" tank from 25-50 is hard to accept. Like SurrealRogue said earlier - in most circumstances, Wars don't carry the right gear/food to tank. And, they don't feel confident about Defender. Food + Defender is their trump card at this range.