Researching THF and subs.

[guyincorporated]

Originally posted by Huck
Can someone Sticky this, and Un-sticky that worthless "thf sub guide"?

Seconded.

[Omena]

Originally posted by Huck
Acutually-No. Triple and Double attack CAN trigger each other. I've had it happen, I've seen it happen with other thf/wars. Double seems to go off about 1/6, and Triple is maybe 1/8. It's not one solid 6 hits, It's like this.
Let's say this is an attack X, You have Double attack X X, and Triple Attack X X X.
Ocassionaly you will see this happen X XX X, or XXX X, it's not a XXXXXX, so I guess you're part right. When triple attacks happen, It's less likely than 1/6 of the hits will double, It's like 1/40+. But it CAN happen. And it CAN happen more than once. Like this XX X XX, or XXX XXX. And each of those hits that happen off of that can trigger a double or triple respecftully. XXxx X X. It happens.

That is not possible. If it was, it would be possible to swing an endless ammount of swings during a single attack round. The most you can do in one round is 6 with dual wielding and triple on both swings.

Originally posted by Huck


With ~200 daggers it would be 25% TP bonus, You get 10% at 20, +15% at 50. This is true, this looks like 50+ thf/nin gets a lot more tp than 50+ thf/war.. except, for Double Attack. Double attack is quite possibly better than berserk. Double attack -> TP Machine, I gain TP faster as thf/war than thf/sam or thf/nin. (I've got them all to experiment, how about you?)
Most of the time as thf/war I can get 100%+ TP in about 45~50 seconds. As a thf/nin, you say you are "lucky to use serveral WS fuidamas in a row"? How is that 30% faster TP? If thf/nin gets such great TP compared to thf/war, How can 100% TP in 60 seconds be "pretty good".

Double Attack does help, but I don't think it helps as much as Dual Wield. You can also use an accuracy increasing dagger in your off-hand for more hits. And with 100% TP in 60 seconds I meant: Ready to WS as soon as fuidama is ready. Usually you won't be fightting the whole 60 seconds between fuidamas because you trigger fuidama before you pull and the fight ends before fuidama becomes availible for the third time.

[Huck]

Originally posted by Omena
That is not possible. If it was, it would be possible to swing an endless ammount of swings during a single attack round. The most you can do in one round is 6 with dual wielding and triple on both swings.

Right, Because one round 6 hits is the most you can do with thf/nin. However, It is possible with thf/war, to potentially attack an infinite number of times in one swing.

Originally posted by Omena
Double Attack does help, but I don't think it helps as much as Dual Wield. You can also use an accuracy increasing dagger in your off-hand for more hits. And with 100% TP in 60 seconds I meant: Ready to WS as soon as fuidama is ready. Usually you won't be fightting the whole 60 seconds between fuidamas because you trigger fuidama before you pull and the fight ends before fuidama becomes availible for the third time.

If you look at the stats that Ruic posted earlier, he showed that Double attack in terms of hits-tp%/minute, is actually better.
I'm not saying dual wield dosn't get you TP, dual wield with fast daggers gains you TP just about the same as thf/war. They both will out TP gain thf/sam. My main goal here is to have people stop saying "thf/war dosn't get you TP" when in fact it's the same//slightly better than thf/nin. What it comes down to, is which subjob does more for your damage.

[Omena]

Originally posted by Huck
Right, Because one round 6 hits is the most you can do with thf/nin. However, It is possible with thf/war, to potentially attack an infinite number of times in one swing.

Can someone please confirm this? I'm sure I would have heard stories of a thief gaining 100% TP in one attack round if this was actually possible.

[Voila!]

I'm assuming as a War/Thf you'd use a shield. There aren't that many useful shields, and you can't even use the Lantern Shield which is a complete blow. I could see subbing Ninja just to give that other hand something to do.

[Huck]

I use a Viking Shield, +12 atk.
I think that beats just about any off-hand dagger you can equip.

[Mithrankittycat]

daylight dagger accuracy+12 during daytime... ;3

[John Doe III]

Originally posted by Huck
Can someone Sticky this, and Un-sticky that worthless "thf sub guide"?

Other topic is better. Everyone in here is just rambling on and the topic creater at least updates his topic in the other sub job guide.

[ibroyles]

Originally posted by Omena
Can someone please confirm this? I'm sure I would have heard stories of a thief gaining 100% TP in one attack round if this was actually possible.

I don't think this is possible from a programming point of view. If it was possible for double/triple to stack on top of each other it would probably cause a memory overflow from all the recursive calls and crash the game. You must always have some base case where the 2A/3A's stop happening. In this particular case I think when a 3A or 2A triggers it will not check for another, to avoid all that recursive hassle.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Huck
I use a Viking Shield, +12 atk.
I think that beats just about any off-hand dagger you can equip.

Who says that dagger is the best offhand option?

Kraken Club.
Ridill.

If you are going to compare best possible offhand equipment, THF/NIN wins in a landslide.

And ironically, I've seen more THFs wielding Kraken Club in offhand (1) than THFs using Viking Shield (0).

P.S. Hornetneedle > Viking Shield

[Prefect]

The /wait command doesn't actually match up with real world seconds either, at least at high values. I've noticed this from discussions about area wait times for chocobo digging being different depend if you go by real elasped seconds or by /wait.

For example, if you have a macro like:

/clock on
/wait 45
/clock on

The two times displayed by the /clock commands will be about 50 second apart, not 45. This could partially explain the weirding going on with the /wait in the ranged attack macro.

[Tokitoki]

The time difference is because of server lag and latency.

[Novac]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Who says that dagger is the best offhand option?

Kraken Club.
Ridill.

If you are going to compare best possible offhand equipment, THF/NIN wins in a landslide.

And ironically, I've seen more THFs wielding Kraken Club in offhand (1) than THFs using Viking Shield (0).

P.S. Hornetneedle > Viking Shield

I'll sub nin in exp pt when I actually get myself a kraken club.

And before I get it, I'll use my viking shield.

And before I get myself a kraken or Ridill, subbing nin is quite gimp for exp pt.

P.S. Meditate + store TP +viking shield > hornet needle. Also, /sam doesn't let you hit for gimp damage on the 2nd swing with that laughable hornet needle's damage of 16.

Oh wait, /nin have utsu. Sam has Third Eye. That means /nin has..... ONE LAST ADVANTAGE of dodging two more hits. Oh, right, utsu absorbs ancient magic. OMG! What should I do!! The nin/pld tank sucks so hard I got killed by ancient!! Yes, ThundergaIII WILL go through all those shadows.

I'll gladly trade more TP + more ATK over two hits from pulling.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Novac
I'll sub nin in exp pt when I actually get myself a kraken club.

And before I get it, I'll use my viking shield.

And before I get myself a kraken or Ridill, subbing nin is quite gimp for exp pt.

P.S. Meditate + store TP +viking shield > hornet needle. Also, /sam doesn't let you hit for gimp damage on the 2nd swing with that laughable hornet needle's damage of 16.

You probably imagined that you were throwing out flamebait here, and a month ago, you likely would have been. But with the introduction of Assassin, I actually think /SAM is potentially very good anyway.

As far as your Hornetneedle comments go, are we really going to compare melee hits between one dagger with miniscule base DMG and another dagger with slightly less miniscule (but still pathetic) base DMG? Even if you compare a puny D16 Hornetneedle to a "beefy, hard-hitting" Cermet Kukri (D22!), everyone else is still laughing at our tiny melee pinpricks.

This is the equivalent of blades of grass arguing about which one is taller, in the middle of a forest.

[ZQM]

Here's a post I made on a forum awhile ago, figured I'd share it in this thread aswell.

(All stats are 49 Hume THF will fully leveled sub (arg, I wish I was still 50 for this. Being @1k because of death sucks ~_~) and capped dagger)

NIN adds more DEX and AGI.
All stats are base, no modifiers.
/NIN:
STR-44
DEX-55
AGI-51
ATK-180

/WAR:
STR-46
DEX-54
AGI-50
ATK-181

Ok, so NIN does add 1 more DEX and AGI. However, talk to some high level THFs and ask just how much more important DEX and AGI are then STR and ATK. This added DEX and AGI will add too little to even bring up (along with added STR and ATK from WAR sub).

However, WAR adds berserk. This adds 25% mor ATK, raising ATK to 226 (45 more). The % gained of DEX and AGI are about 2%. 45 is a large number, and the best part about it is that it will continue to grow as you level (The higher daggers skill along with +ATK equipment, Warcy, and the job trait will incrase how much the % adds). Also, once you add in equipment modifers, the +1 DEX AND AGI become less and less of an added a precent, where as the +ATK will stay at 25%.

Speaking of the trait (gained at 60/30), it's also a large amount. +30 I believe? I can't test this, so somebody please correct me.

And then Warcry. Another good ~20 ATK.

So when it comes down to stat bonuses, /WAR > /NIN.

[Edit]A poster added their own STR, DEX, and AGI in the thread that I originally posted this in. Lv68 Mithra:

/WAR
STR:57
DEX:76
AGI:70

/NIN
STR:55
DEX:77
AGI:71

/NIN has better sub-job dependant equip

The +4 AGI Earring is obviously better then the +2 VIT Earring you get from /WAR, however that's only 1 more AGI then drones.

The only other piece of equipment worth mentioning is Sarashi. However, after talking to people who have used it, it is not worth getting. It's estimated to only add 1% more haste, so Life Belt (+10 ACC) will actually be more beniftial to normal melee attacks.

So /NIN > /WAR, by 1 agi. :p

You can off-hand a weapon, allowing for better modifiyers

Off-handing is great. Crossair Knife (+10 ATK), Lust Dagger (+7 AGI), and Hornet's Needle (TP gain, I will not address this here but later in this post) are the general off-hand weapons I see. What most people forget though, is that you can offhand a shield as well.

Viking Shield (+12 ATK) is obviously going to be a better stat modifer then Crossair Knife (the general weapon I see at early levels). Lust dagger adds a good amount of AGI, but also has -1 STR and DEX. For those reasons, I hardly ever see a Lust Dagger being used.

So when it comes to the off-hand for stat modifications (NOT TP gain), /WAR > /NIN.

NIN gives an extra hit in WS
Ah yes, one of my favorite parts of /NIN as WAR. And the main way a THF does damage is from WS.

However, pre-60 with Viper Bite, it only does about 20 damage on a normal hit. Since SATA only effects the first hit, it only adds ~20 damage to WS damage. Berserk alone will surpass that.

Post-60, I can't say as a fact. However, with trick attack only (SC starter missed or couldn't get hate off of me), it was doing about ~300 damage on the Manticores in Terrigan. 300/6 = 50 (6 because it's a 5 fold attack and 1 added attack form /NIN). Again, Berserk alone can easly surpass that.

Sharkbite I've never seen without Sneak Attack. I wouldn't imagine much more then 50 though.

So for WS damage, do to the weakness of THF WSs without SATA, /WAR > /NIN

Utsusemi

Utsusemi is for 3 things.
1) Tanking
2) Safety when pulling hate off of tank
3) Pulling.

1 is void, 2 becomes void post 30, so that leaves 3.

Most mobs aren't fast enough to justify this. On Raptors and the likes, this is basically needed unless you want to waste a lot of MP every pull. Not that many fast mobs, though.

And one thing to remember is THFs have highest evasion in game.

/NIN gives better TP gain
This is under the assumption 60 Delay = 1 second, which I find to be true.

This is also under the assumption that the smallest amount of TP you can get is 5%, and every dagger gives this amount.

After doing an average of the highest DMG weapons of Corsair's Knife up (excluding Harpes), the average delay is 202.

If you want the source (too lazy to look up names and levels, DMG DLY)
21 209
23 194
24 206
26 201

202/60 = An attack rougly every 3.3 seconds.
Attacks needed to gain 100% TP: 20
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 66 seconds.

With dual 202 delay weapon and DW2
(202 + 202)/1.15 = 351
351/60 = An attack rougly every 5.85 seconds
Attacks needed to gain 100% TP: 10
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 58.5 seconds

With 202 delay weapon and 150 delay hornets needle and DW2
(202 + 150)/1.15 = 306
306/60 = An attack rougly every 5.1 seconds
Attacks needed to gain 100% TP: 10
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 51 second

So yes, with base stats, /NIN does have faster TP gain. Now lets add modifactions. These would be the spell and Double Attack, the only mods I see in EXP PTs.

Spell adds 20% haste.

/WAR
202-(202*.2)=162
162/60 = An attack rougly ever 2.7 seconds
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 54 seconds

Dual 202
351-(351*.2)=281
281/60 = An attack rougly every 4.5 seconds
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 45 seconds

Hornets
306-(306*.2)=245
245/60 = An attack rougly every 4 seconds
Attacks needed to gain 100% TP: 10
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 40 second

Now to add in Double Attack.
Reading research on it, it goes off 10-12% (which sounds accurate to me). This will reduce the number of attack rounds needed to 18 from 20 (20*.1=2, 20-2=18)

Without haste
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 59 seconds.

With haste
Time taken to get to 100% TP with 100% ACC: 48.5 seconds.

As you can see, these numbers are HARDLY behind dual wieldling 202 weapons. Hornets needle still has quite a bit of lead though (about 8 seconds in both).

Thinks to remember:
-This is with 100% ACC, which obviously isn't in game. ACC is about 1) Equip and 2) Luck.
-DA isn't guarenteed to go off 10% of the time. It can go off more or less.
-Lower delay of dual wield gives more oppertunities to get a tripple attack. I hardly ever seen THFs get a tripple attack (couple times an hour), though admitidly I don't pay that much attention.





SJ = /WAR for me.

As far as off-handing Kraken and Ridill....not only is the likelyhood of getting these items being extremely slim, but a thing to remember is mob TP. Ridill doesn't give that much, but a Kraken does. Most mobs have dangerous specials or AOEs, and you wouldn't want them to spam it.

That is, ofcoarse, if you can even hit often with it.