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Hello. I'm by no means a THF, I'm mostly here gathering information and research to talk with a friend about her THF, in fact she'll probably read this. 
I decided to post this thread after reading a little bit from the first few pages of this job forum, and would like some feedback. I'm not looking to open any can of worms discussions here. I'm merely asking for perspective and answers, so please be civil, thank you.
The thief itself I am fully aware of the skill ratings and the traits gained... And I have my experience with raising THF, and playing with those in PTs etc, as well as a few experiments with stats.
Here's a few questions:
Steal - Post below says Steal is unaffected by stats. Given the experiences I've had, and those I've witnessed this seems more correct than INT being the determining stat. What is the general thief consensus on this?
Sneak Attack - Formula I've always heard is that Sneak Attack works by adding your Dexterity to your Weapon's Damage, then scoring a critical hit, while also granting 100% accuracy. Correct?
Trick Attack - Formula of TA seems to be the same as SA, but adding Agility instead, and giving hate to the person whom it is used behind. I also believe 100% accuracy occurs here as well, but no critical hit is scored simply a strike with that enhanced damage pseduo-weapon. Correct?
Treasure Hunter I - Gives additional "rolls" towards finding items, but does not increase chances of finding rare items. True/False?
Treasure Hunter II - Gives more additional "rolls" towards finding items, but DOES increase chances of finding specifically flagged "Rare" items. True/False?
Sub Questions:
WAR Gives (of note):
Provoke (10/5)
Phys Def up 1 (20/10)
Berserk at (30/15)
Double Attack (50/25)
Phys Def up 2 (60/30) (Unsure, but should follow rule of 20s)
Phys ATK up 1 (60/30)
Warcry (70/35)
Obviously the important things here are Double Attack and Berserk. Due to the diminishing returns and exponential scale damage calculations of FFXI, Berserk granting a 25% ATK bonus would result in consistently higher (closer to cap damage) SATAWS combos, as well as improving the damage on the normal hits of the THF. Double attack is the big curiosity for me here. I had assumed, perhaps foolishly of me, that double attack would function with triple attack just like double attack functions with Ninja duel wield, or Monk h2h weapons. Are they incompatible? Do they prevent each other from happening? Can any hit of a triple attack trigger double attack, or can double attack hits trigger a triple attack?
I think that the WAR subs primary concern would be gathering TP, as it would have the least haste bonus, accuracy, and TP growth of any THF sub. However, this may be untrue as combined double and triple attack may make up for it. Does it? Do you THF/WARs out there find the extra damage from your SA/TA/WS or SA/TAs with Berserk worth the slower TP growth? If possible can you give me comparable numbers, IE 500 without berserk, 600 with? Does this damage boost outweigh the TP loss? Also how easily is it for THF/WARs to voke the mob off and Perfect Dodge in an emergency to save their PT? And as an afterthought, THF/WAR is arguably the best farmer in the game, normal mobs and NMs.
NIN gives (of note):
Stealth (10/5)
Duel Wield I (20/10)
Utsusemi: Ichi (24/12)
Resist Bind (40/20)
Duel Wield II (50/25)
Stealth II (50/25) - (Unsure if stealth follows the rule of 20s)
Utsusemi: Ichi (74/37)
This seems pretty straightforward to me. Ninja offers Stealth which helps with pulling, 15% haste, and the slightly better ATK/ACC bonuses from a secondary weapon. But it really boils down to 15% haste, slightly better pulling, and blink.
RNG gives (of note):
Sharpshot (1/1)
Widescan (1/1)
Alertness (10/5)
Accuracy Bonus (20/10)
Rapid Shot (30/15)
Camouflage (40/20) (Does this work for SATA like Hide?)
Widescan II (40/20)
Alertness II (50/25) (Again unsure if Alertness follows rule of 20s)
Barrage (60/30)
Accuracy Bonus II (60/30)
I read the thread about THF/RNG but, something that was passed over, which I felt you may wish to know, is that the RNG accuracy traits also affect melee accuracy in a very large way.
Here's a link to a thread discussing RDM Archery, it is somewhat old, but still full of good information.
http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...threadid=43704
The most interesting information from this post, or at least pertinent to THF mains is the following.
Quoted from Apple Pie:
/RNG10 : +10 Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
/RNG30 : +12 (Total 22) Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
/RNG50 : +13 (Total 35) Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
For your reference,
Focus (MNK25): +20 Accuracy
Aggressor (WAR45): +25 Accuracy
Sword Madrigal (BRD11): +15 Accuracy (Can be up to +19 with Traversiere +1)
Great Sword Madrigal (BRD51): +25 Accuracy (Can be up to +29 with Traversiere +1)
End Quote
Obviously the best you can get from a RNG sub is Accuracy Bonus 2, but consider the fact that not only does it open up the abilities discussed here, but also tacks on an additional 22 melee accuracy to THF's dagger, along with opening up competent ranged attacks (including barrage and sidewinder/slugshot), widescan and alertness for pulling. So as to the value of RNG sub, just how accurate are THFs later on with their daggers? Would +22 melee accuracy result in a very marked improvement in TP gain?
It seems to me that the most important thing for THFs is building TP, and landing powerful SATAWS's. The second most important thing for THFs is being a competent puller.
Final Comparison:
WAR: Gives much more powerful SATAs 60% of the time through berserk. Gives additional TP through double attack. Has arguably the worst melee accuracy. Gains abilities to help the PT though, IE Voke+PD, and Warcry for later Renkeis, and has stronger hit per hit strikes. Has less pulling ability, but has much better "tanking" ability, and could withstand taking a few hits on the run-away pull. Has moderate flexibility due to subjob abilities, and has limited support abilities such as warcry. Also gains access to some sword weaponskills not normally available to THF.
NIN: Gains access to blink, slightly better equipment bonuses, and a 15% haste. Has stealth to assist in pulling the right mobs, and isn't likely to take damage on the run-away pull. Has slightly better accuracy compared to /WAR but much less than /RNG, hits for less per strike, but does have a 15% haste bonus which helps build TP. Easily the -least- flexible THF sub.
RNG: Has the best pulling ability of any sub possible, but also the most fragile, and may suffer the most damage on the run-away pull. Gains additional TP through very improved accuracy in melee and ranged attack abilities, and through the use of timed abilities such as barrage. Has access to ranged weaponry, and if willing to foot the bill can drop more damage over time than their daggers my cause with them. Can utilize debuffing bolts and arrows effectively to help support the party, and gains access to RNG WS's resulting in by far the most flexibility available from any sub. This sub would require equipment changing macros to work effectively which would also cost a lot. And as an afterthought, THF/RNG is arguably tied with RNG/THF for being the best farmer of wide-popping mobs to farm, or NMs such as the Valkurm Emperor.
So please help me out. How correct is my above analysis of the THF, and the three subs I have presented. If I've made any incorrect assumptions, what are they, and what is a more correct perspective? Thanks in advance to anyone who chooses to respond.
I decided to post this thread after reading a little bit from the first few pages of this job forum, and would like some feedback. I'm not looking to open any can of worms discussions here. I'm merely asking for perspective and answers, so please be civil, thank you.The thief itself I am fully aware of the skill ratings and the traits gained... And I have my experience with raising THF, and playing with those in PTs etc, as well as a few experiments with stats.
Here's a few questions:
Steal - Post below says Steal is unaffected by stats. Given the experiences I've had, and those I've witnessed this seems more correct than INT being the determining stat. What is the general thief consensus on this?
Sneak Attack - Formula I've always heard is that Sneak Attack works by adding your Dexterity to your Weapon's Damage, then scoring a critical hit, while also granting 100% accuracy. Correct?
Trick Attack - Formula of TA seems to be the same as SA, but adding Agility instead, and giving hate to the person whom it is used behind. I also believe 100% accuracy occurs here as well, but no critical hit is scored simply a strike with that enhanced damage pseduo-weapon. Correct?
Treasure Hunter I - Gives additional "rolls" towards finding items, but does not increase chances of finding rare items. True/False?
Treasure Hunter II - Gives more additional "rolls" towards finding items, but DOES increase chances of finding specifically flagged "Rare" items. True/False?
Sub Questions:
WAR Gives (of note):
Provoke (10/5)
Phys Def up 1 (20/10)
Berserk at (30/15)
Double Attack (50/25)
Phys Def up 2 (60/30) (Unsure, but should follow rule of 20s)
Phys ATK up 1 (60/30)
Warcry (70/35)
Obviously the important things here are Double Attack and Berserk. Due to the diminishing returns and exponential scale damage calculations of FFXI, Berserk granting a 25% ATK bonus would result in consistently higher (closer to cap damage) SATAWS combos, as well as improving the damage on the normal hits of the THF. Double attack is the big curiosity for me here. I had assumed, perhaps foolishly of me, that double attack would function with triple attack just like double attack functions with Ninja duel wield, or Monk h2h weapons. Are they incompatible? Do they prevent each other from happening? Can any hit of a triple attack trigger double attack, or can double attack hits trigger a triple attack?
I think that the WAR subs primary concern would be gathering TP, as it would have the least haste bonus, accuracy, and TP growth of any THF sub. However, this may be untrue as combined double and triple attack may make up for it. Does it? Do you THF/WARs out there find the extra damage from your SA/TA/WS or SA/TAs with Berserk worth the slower TP growth? If possible can you give me comparable numbers, IE 500 without berserk, 600 with? Does this damage boost outweigh the TP loss? Also how easily is it for THF/WARs to voke the mob off and Perfect Dodge in an emergency to save their PT? And as an afterthought, THF/WAR is arguably the best farmer in the game, normal mobs and NMs.
NIN gives (of note):
Stealth (10/5)
Duel Wield I (20/10)
Utsusemi: Ichi (24/12)
Resist Bind (40/20)
Duel Wield II (50/25)
Stealth II (50/25) - (Unsure if stealth follows the rule of 20s)
Utsusemi: Ichi (74/37)
This seems pretty straightforward to me. Ninja offers Stealth which helps with pulling, 15% haste, and the slightly better ATK/ACC bonuses from a secondary weapon. But it really boils down to 15% haste, slightly better pulling, and blink.
RNG gives (of note):
Sharpshot (1/1)
Widescan (1/1)
Alertness (10/5)
Accuracy Bonus (20/10)
Rapid Shot (30/15)
Camouflage (40/20) (Does this work for SATA like Hide?)
Widescan II (40/20)
Alertness II (50/25) (Again unsure if Alertness follows rule of 20s)
Barrage (60/30)
Accuracy Bonus II (60/30)
I read the thread about THF/RNG but, something that was passed over, which I felt you may wish to know, is that the RNG accuracy traits also affect melee accuracy in a very large way.
Here's a link to a thread discussing RDM Archery, it is somewhat old, but still full of good information.
http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...threadid=43704
The most interesting information from this post, or at least pertinent to THF mains is the following.
Quoted from Apple Pie:
/RNG10 : +10 Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
/RNG30 : +12 (Total 22) Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
/RNG50 : +13 (Total 35) Accuracy/Ranged Accuracy
For your reference,
Focus (MNK25): +20 Accuracy
Aggressor (WAR45): +25 Accuracy
Sword Madrigal (BRD11): +15 Accuracy (Can be up to +19 with Traversiere +1)
Great Sword Madrigal (BRD51): +25 Accuracy (Can be up to +29 with Traversiere +1)
End Quote
Obviously the best you can get from a RNG sub is Accuracy Bonus 2, but consider the fact that not only does it open up the abilities discussed here, but also tacks on an additional 22 melee accuracy to THF's dagger, along with opening up competent ranged attacks (including barrage and sidewinder/slugshot), widescan and alertness for pulling. So as to the value of RNG sub, just how accurate are THFs later on with their daggers? Would +22 melee accuracy result in a very marked improvement in TP gain?
It seems to me that the most important thing for THFs is building TP, and landing powerful SATAWS's. The second most important thing for THFs is being a competent puller.
Final Comparison:
WAR: Gives much more powerful SATAs 60% of the time through berserk. Gives additional TP through double attack. Has arguably the worst melee accuracy. Gains abilities to help the PT though, IE Voke+PD, and Warcry for later Renkeis, and has stronger hit per hit strikes. Has less pulling ability, but has much better "tanking" ability, and could withstand taking a few hits on the run-away pull. Has moderate flexibility due to subjob abilities, and has limited support abilities such as warcry. Also gains access to some sword weaponskills not normally available to THF.
NIN: Gains access to blink, slightly better equipment bonuses, and a 15% haste. Has stealth to assist in pulling the right mobs, and isn't likely to take damage on the run-away pull. Has slightly better accuracy compared to /WAR but much less than /RNG, hits for less per strike, but does have a 15% haste bonus which helps build TP. Easily the -least- flexible THF sub.
RNG: Has the best pulling ability of any sub possible, but also the most fragile, and may suffer the most damage on the run-away pull. Gains additional TP through very improved accuracy in melee and ranged attack abilities, and through the use of timed abilities such as barrage. Has access to ranged weaponry, and if willing to foot the bill can drop more damage over time than their daggers my cause with them. Can utilize debuffing bolts and arrows effectively to help support the party, and gains access to RNG WS's resulting in by far the most flexibility available from any sub. This sub would require equipment changing macros to work effectively which would also cost a lot. And as an afterthought, THF/RNG is arguably tied with RNG/THF for being the best farmer of wide-popping mobs to farm, or NMs such as the Valkurm Emperor.
So please help me out. How correct is my above analysis of the THF, and the three subs I have presented. If I've made any incorrect assumptions, what are they, and what is a more correct perspective? Thanks in advance to anyone who chooses to respond.
) But if you're just looking at TP, thf/sam could possibly be "Better" than thf/nin. And if Thf/Sam has a Viking Shield... hmm...
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