The full explanation on Hide (and Hide+SA) mechanics

[Spider-Dan]

OK, seeing as how there is quite a bit of uncertainty on the exact mechanics of Hide in the community, I figured it was time to put Hide through it's paces. Here's what I found.

We all know that outside of battle, Hide works essentially the same as Camouflage; i.e. a JA that gives you plain old invisibility. Nothing new here.

Common knowledge states that in battle, Hide allows you to drop aggro from sight-based mobs, but not sound, and not those that track by scent. This is not accurate. The only time that you will receive the "<me> tries to Hide, but is spotted by the <t>" message (meaning that your Hide failed) is when you are tracked by scent. In any other situation, you will successfully execute Hide. Here's the evidence:

In the first two pics, you can see that I Steal, then successfully Hide from two undead (sound, no scent) mobs way below my level. Since they do not aggro on me normally, that's the end of the story. I can walk away.

http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hide/clp00121.jpg (note: his name is still red because of the new de-aggro delay... I did successfully Hide)
http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hide/clp00122.jpg

Now, in the case of a mob high-enough level to aggro me when I walk by, it's a bit different.

http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hide/clp00127.jpg

Here, I walk up to the Lost Soul, he attacks, and I successfully Hide. Note that his name is, in fact, white, and he is looking away from me with not a care in the world.

However, after a few seconds, he re-aggroed me, because he does detect by sound, and I'm not sneaked.

http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hide/clp00128.jpg

There are three important things to note.

1) Hide didn't fail
2) The window (from de-aggro to re-aggro) was more than large enough for a WS
3) Hide was active during the whole window

A macroed Hide+WS would have worked on this mob, even if I was soloing.

So we've established that the failure or success of Hide (meaning, whether or not it says "you are spotted") is not related to sight or sound.

Scent, however, is a tricky thing. I don't believe that there are any mobs that aggro to scent in the game... only those that track you by scent once you're on the hate list. So I grabbed a stack of Deodorizers and went out.

First things first, can I use a Deodorizer and Hide when I am "tanking"?

http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hide/clp00123.jpg

Nope. The macro I used in this case was /item, /wait 3 (1 and 2 don't work), /ja. You might be able to make the argument that against a slower attacking mob, it might work... but it would be tough.

Next test: what if I Flee off into the distance, then use my Deodorizer+Hide macro?

http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hide/clp00124.jpg

It worked. So if you aren't being hit, Deo+Hide works.

Now, one interesting thing I had heard mentioned was about losing scent-based mobs when pulling through puddles in specific zones. I decided to try to lose the Crawler survivalist style; I did Steal, then used Flee and ran through and across a couple of rivers...

http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hide/clp00125.jpg

It worked. No Deodorize needed. And just to make sure that it was the river, and not the sheer distance Flee put between us, I repeated the test while staying on land:

http://tinyurl.com/hlbng/hide/clp00126.jpg

At first, I didn't understand what happened. My macro went off, but the log didn't say anything at all, and I had no Hide status.

What happened was that Hide failed, but because the Crawler was far out of visual range, there was no one for the game to report "spotting me." So the game just said nothing at all. The Crawler eventually came for me though, so Hide did officially fail.

One of the notes in the last patch update was:

"The types of weather that hinder a monster's ability to track by scent have been adjusted."

I think that more information on the effect of weather on scent would be quite useful, as well as a comprehensive list of scent-based mobs.

Summary:
Scent kills Hide, not sound or sight. If you want to Hide+SA, you probably need to be deodorized.

edit: fixed URLs

[LockeCole]

Hey~ nice info

Just wondering, I had heard undeads aggro by scent when your life is in the yellow/red zone, thus their extended range. Anyone know anything about this?

[Kai Leonhart]

That much is true, undead do aggro when they see your HP is low!

[Kurgan]

Undead have a vitality based aggro. It's not scent based. Although strangely enough, deodorize prevents them from aggroing you when your HP is low..

[Roldarin]

So essentially undead smell your wounds, something deodorize will mask.

[guyincorporated]

Outstanding, SpiderDan. I was certain I knew all there was to know about hide.

So now: party applications. suddenly our new hidedama seems quite a bit more useful. Couple questions first. Lets say we're fighting an orc (sight/smell) and a thief doesn't have aggro. If the whm casts deodorize, can the thief still attack it and keep deodorize? I'm guessing it works like sneak/invis: attacking or being attacked will cancel it.

Next question: what about if we're fighting undead? If the paladin's got aggro and the thief hides, which you showed was possible, will the thief once again be spotted 2 or 3 seconds later? It looks like it would still be doable, but timing might be a bit trickier.

Assuming I'm right about deodorize wearing off if you attack/get hit, that means that the thief will have to start coordinating with a caster (most casters being whm or /whm) for deodorizes every 5 minutes. (because I really don't need to carry ANOTHER item along with me...I think I'm at 35/50 inventory whenever I walk out the door as a thief lately.)

---

Damnit, I really want to try this all out now, but my static party won't be xping until next week =/

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Kurgan
Undead have a vitality based aggro. It's not scent based. Although strangely enough, deodorize prevents them from aggroing you when your HP is low..

False, false, false. I specifically tested this for another thread, and deodorize does not stop low-hp aggro from undead. At the very best it might reduce low-hp aggro range (I have not tested this), but even that, imo, is very unlikely.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by guyincorporated
So now: party applications. suddenly our new hidedama seems quite a bit more useful. Couple questions first. Lets say we're fighting an orc (sight/smell) and a thief doesn't have aggro. If the whm casts deodorize, can the thief still attack it and keep deodorize?

Deo works like Sneak; SA/TA won't cancel it, but offensive actions will.

Next question: what about if we're fighting undead? If the paladin's got aggro and the thief hides, which you showed was possible, will the thief once again be spotted 2 or 3 seconds later?

No. The "spotted" message is a pass/fail check made at the time of Hide's execution. If you pass ("<me> hides!"), then you are in Hide status. However, you can be aggroed by sound-based mobs while you're in Hide status. (see the test with the Lost Soul) This is not Hide failing per se, but Hide simply not giving you Sneak status.

[Shamaru]

"The types of weather that hinder a monster's ability to track by scent have been adjusted."

Some jp told me that rain would cover you smell. I wonder if windy or snow storm could do the same ^^?

[ibroyles]

Originally posted by Shamaru
Some jp told me that rain would cover you smell. I wonder if windy or snow storm could do the same ^^?

HMMM...maybe wind would actually increase the chance of being detected by smell from long distances?

[LockeCole]

OK Thanks for the info on Deodorize. Very informative (this and the other post)

next question : Has anyone used Hide [consistantly] in an exp party ? Was it more confusion or did it make the party flow smoother ?

[Mithrankittycat]

P.S. THX for deodorize info KITTYCAT

[Thoronas]

Originally posted by LockeCole
next question : Has anyone used Hide [consistantly] in an exp party ? Was it more confusion or did it make the party flow smoother ?

Yes I was wondering if this would allow the thf to SA/TA off the tank even when he is holding aggro.

[Viktoria]

Has anyone been able to confirm this? I've been using Deo but haven't been able to successfully pull this off. This is how I've been doing it.

- Run behind tank
- Face away from mob, prep SAnTA
- Ask mage for Deo
- After Deo's cast, activate Hide
- Turn around to face mob again from behind tank
- I miss, or just the Trick part works (no Critical Hit message)

I've done this both with and without disengaging, and I fail in either case. I look back in the log and it was because the mob spotted me.

For the record I was trying this in my static party while we were hunting Sand Lizards in Cape Teriggan. I know they don't track by scent, but I was failing without the Deo, so I figured I'd give a shot. They DO aggro by sound, so I'll try again tomorrow with asking the mage to Sneak me instead. It seems harder to pull off in a party setting.

[Spider-Dan]

I have a feeling I know why Deo+Hide+SA may be failing. More tests to follow.