Summoner/White mage GAH!

[Kirsteena]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

I can guarantee that every single smn has asked the question "why can't I sub /blm for more mp?" Sure, you say that you would rather fight two EM instead of one VT, and that it is the experience of the situation that matters. But you can get that experience regardless. And two EM when your tnl is in excess of 35k seems a tiny tiny drop in a very large pool.

There is a reason that most bst when soloing will sub whm - for the survivability factor. Being able to run out of range, cast Stoneskin to give you that extra piece of protection... certainly it is the general sub when xping. There is a case for /nin yes, but whm is more often used for soloing.

[Akashimo]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Not sure if I it was already been stated but, why should jobs be broken in players eyes just from subs? Isn't the point mains should be good enough to last without one or that the sub in case of smn makes or breaks it on how its played?

[Murphie]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

The job/subjob system is what FFXI is based upon, so no.

[Taskmage]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Not sure if I it was already been stated but, why should jobs be broken in players eyes just from subs? Isn't the point mains should be good enough to last without one or that the sub in case of smn makes or breaks it on how its played?

I would agree with you, but that's a philosophical issue between us and SE. They don't seem to agree and the game isn't designed that way, so unless they do an about-face and overhauls every job to be self-sufficient in their role, only changed in style or enhanced by their support job, it's rather pointless to argue the idea.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

I would agree with you, but that's a philosophical issue between us and SE. They don't seem to agree and the game isn't designed that way, so unless they do an about-face and overhauls every job to be self-sufficient in their role, only changed in style or enhanced by their support job, it's rather pointless to argue the idea.

Quoted for SO much truth.

That's the main problem with Summoner, really, in that it isn't self-sufficient.

[Freedan]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

As a counter analogy, why would you drive down the highway in first gear rather than fourth gear? Sure, you'll get to the same destination and maybe speed doesn't matter to you, but why would you spend more money (more gas vs more items) and put more wear on your resources (more engine wear vs more deaths from not being able to cure or buff at will) to accomplish the exact same goal? Nobody is going to respect you for making either decision, and I don't see why any right-minded person would make it. Just put the smn in gear and get the job done.

Well guess I'll take the car analogy and run with it.

Lets compare SMN/WHM to a Hybrid that gets 60+ MPG and SMN/x as the big SUV that gets 2 MPG.

Why doesn't everyone drive a Hybrid? It could be that Hybrids are the leading cause of smug.

Freedom of Choice = Diversity

If /whm was the only way to go for SMN, why didn't SE just made a single class system?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

. . . And therein lies another problem.

[Murphie]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Well, if it was as simple as walking into their house and talking to a floating moogle, I suspect more people would be driving Hybrids. Or at least trying to figure out why they have a floating moogle in their house.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

And therein lies a solution. I think.

[Shadowneko]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Not that I like subbing /whm...I fact I hate it! I mean people say "oh a Summoner...he/she can main heal" when the truth is that a real WHM is much better.(I hate playing gimp WHM thank you very much...I'm a summoner and wierd buffs and semi-ok DD stuff is my game. I did not play this job to heal your stupid....well you know!)

The MP difference is minimal between the Blm and WHM subs...but also on low levels like you're on now...well you don't have very many fun bloodpacts. The teir 2 spells are the best DD(lvl 25+) followed closely by Levithain's tail whip(just abit higher). Most of the good buffs you get between lvl 30-50...like Ariel Armor and Earthen Ward.

Untill you get stuff that really cooks you'll be stuck playing gimp WHM...or even beyond that...I just hate the whole attidue that Blood pacts and summons are a waste of MP. I love Avatars...and anything they can do is very cool...I hate getting stuck as healer...it just makes me feel like a second rate WHM and not a Summoner....

[Taskmage]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Well guess I'll take the car analogy and run with it.
Lets compare SMN/WHM to a Hybrid that gets 60+ MPG and SMN/x as the big SUV that gets 2 MPG.
Why doesn't everyone drive a Hybrid? It could be that Hybrids are the leading cause of smug.
Freedom of Choice = Diversity
If /whm was the only way to go for SMN, why didn't SE just made a single class system?

So you wouldn't drive a hybrid solely for the reason that you don't like the attitudes of other people who drive hybrids, even though you acknowledge they're the more responsible, ostensibly "better" choice? That seems like a really poor reason to make any kind of decision that you care significantly about.

As to your last comment, probably because they envisioned smn working in a way that didn't pan out in practice.

Like warriors for instance. Lots of their artifact and even relic equipment has +enmity on it on the theory that the mod would be useful to warriors acting as a tank. But the players determined that warrior is a decidedly sub-par tank compared to paladins and ninjas starting in the early midgame, and warriors stopped being invited for that purpose. Instead they found that a properly equipped warrior was one of the best damage dealers in the game, so they took the job in that direction instead. +enmity is bad news for a heavy damage dealer that isn't geared to take hits, so those warrior-only items go to waste.

Summoner, I imagine, SE envisioned as being a flexible support/DD character (which they may have only recently "gotten right" with blu and cor), able to shift between contributing to damage and supporting with song/spell-like effects depending on the party's needs. But whenever you make a job good at multiple things, to keep the jobs balanced you have to make sure that specialists in each of those things can ourperform the versatile character. So smn's DD ability was set at a level lower than dedicated DD classes, same as rdm's elemental magic is significantly weaker than a blm's. Because they're weaker than other options, parties stop inviting smns to fill DD slots, relegating them to a support-only role. But if you're not dealing damage, there's no reason to keep your avatar out between BPs, so what do you do with 50 seconds out of a minute when you don't need to rest? Well, the only thing you can do is heal, since the mainjob doesn't have any spells or abilities you can use during that interim time, and all offensive options are gimped by subjob restrictions. As I see it that's how the job has fallen from the expectations of its designers and the player base.

[Omniblast]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Another note, while mobs do resist your spells when you cast upon them, your allies and other players don't resist spells when you cast oh say cure on them. Wouldn't life be a bitch if your cures got resisted? Another reason to sub whm! wow the hits just keep on commin'.

Oh about the analogy to driving in 1st gear vs. 4th gear. You actually get more bang for the buck driving 35~ mph. It has been tested that driving slower = more milage. oddly enough. I don't think this has anything to do about it, but I just thought I'd put in some nonsense here.

Oh and Freedan, your an "person lacking in subnormal intelligence, borderlined between a half-wit & imbecile". That's just my diversified opinion.

[Vildar]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Well this certanly has got popular. I just want to say that i have tried whm subbed, and the party died very fast. Not sure if this was due to me being inexperienced or the party as a whole. We did have an actual whm there but they wernt very good. Again i had abuse for not keeping them alive . They said nothing to the actual main healer.

[Shirai]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Between all the flames back and forth I'll try to write my (hopefully) objective opinion about the smn job and subjobs.
I haven't read all replies so I might be repeating what other people may have said.

In exp summoner is mostly a healer or support class depending on partysetup and willingness of the other support job capable of healing to do so.
The reason we're alos more a support class is our limit of Blood pact timers and the inconsistancy of our Blood pact damage.

/BLM:
Although it gives you a bigger MP pool and at a certain level conserve MP, this subjob is not really worth it.
The spells are at the strength of the support job so on mobs with a higher level then you have they will get resisted a lot and mostly be a waste of MP even if you MB.
Ultimately this will be a waste of MP better used for other purposes.
Also the Conserve MP will only kick in on actual spells you cast, as our summoning spells vary between 5 and 18 MP this will not be very helpful on this specific class as that is only a very small portion of our MP pool at later levels.
Conserve MP does not affect Blood pacts or perpetuation cost at all.
More MP from the BLM subjob is about the only benefit you will have.

/RDM
As summoner is mainly a healer or support class in exp setups this could be a viable sub.
You get the cures until cure III and the fast cast trait which helps casting the cures a little faster.
The downside of this subjob however is that you will miss out on several spells which could immensely help out your party like the -na spells, Erase, Curagas, the Partybuffs like Protectra and shellra, and for when things go majorly wrong: Raise!

/WHM
The most common and widely accepted subjob for summoner, for a reason.
Both in solo and party situation the summoner can utilize their subjob like no other job can.
Next to our Blood pacts we have enough power and MP to keep the party up and going.
We can cast minor buffs like Protectra and Shellra upon our party, elemental buffs, we have -na spells in our repetoire for when someone gets inflicted by a poison or other ailment, we have cures and curagas we can buff ourselves, raise the downed, and at a certain level reraise ourselves without the usage of expensive items.
It also has the huge benefit of being able to teleport to the 3 main crags once you reach endgame levels.

/Melee
Situational, I will explain later on in the post.

In partysituation,
as I stated earlier summoner is mainly a support class here depending on the willingness of the other healer/support class to back you up on healing.
Summoner is blessed with loads of Blood pacts to make the job a lot easier as long as the assistant backs you up enough.
9 out of the 10 parties you join will be asked to heal, whm is ultimately the best subjob for this because of the spells and ablities it brings.

Solo situation,
As far as soloing goes it really depends on the stuff you solo, in most situations /whm stays the best subjob for this due to fighting mobs which can give status ailments through an unlucky AoE move or let it be hitting a few times when your avatar went down and you resummoned a new one which has to rebuild enough hate to get it off you.
On lower level mobs (Too weak up to Decent challenge) it could be viable to have a melee sub because in most cases the mob will die before your avatar does however your avatar has to be hitting hard enough so that you won't pull hate off it while you melee along with it.
(I use /thf myself when farming)

Of course I've seen come by that our Blood pacts can do a large amount of healing, whoever said that is right however we are still limited by our blood pact timers.
In partysituations you can toss out a quick healing ruby/whispering wind when the party is struck by an AoE however you'll have to wait one full minute (Depending on gear that reduces Blood pact timers) to repeat that action, within that time the party could wipe because you couldn't cure them in the mean time.

In solo situations you wouldn't want to use Blood pacts close to the mob when you already have a little hate built up as your avatar will have trouble getting the mob off you the next time you have to resummon if the mob won't be facing you already after giving the command.

Most of this comes from my own experience, I've soloed 90% of my levels from 51 to 75 and 75% of all my merits.
I only party with a select type of people.
(People that don't care about fast exp.)

[Taskmage]

Re: Summoner/White mage GAH!

Well this certanly has got popular. I just want to say that i have tried whm subbed, and the party died very fast. Not sure if this was due to me being inexperienced or the party as a whole. We did have an actual whm there but they wernt very good. Again i had abuse for not keeping them alive . They said nothing to the actual main healer.

Unless you're leaving out major details, it sounds like you got partied up with a bunch of douchebags again. There's no reason a whm can't carry a party on its own. If you were a backup healer, there's no way they should have laid the blame on you exclusively. If they got into a situation where they were relying on you only to heal, that's a failure not only of your ability but of the communication and judgement of the puller and the white mage for not coordinating better with you and rationing mp.

That said, it's not that easy to main heal well, especially when you're casting purely from half level spells. If it was all your fault somehow, don't be too hard on yourself about it and just try to figure out what you can do to avoid it in the future. I've killed my share of parties with unfortunate "learning experiences" myself. >.>

And again, sorry you keep running into jerks. At another time I'd say that isn't representative of most of the playerbase and to just forget it, but really I'm not that confident in that statement anymore. I barely venture out of my linkshells anymore. If you find some good players, try to stick with them, get a pearl or /befriend them. Social ties are the bread and butter of this game. And the farther you get from Valkurm, the lower the general level of retardedness gets, so just bear it a little longer if you can.