rdm as DD?

[Celeal]

Re: rdm as DD?

/em dies from Callisto's RDM DD awesomeness ..... Orz

Seriously, unless something new is introduce to FFXI, I think this thread already covers most of RDM's melee idea + info.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

After 8 pages, this dead horse is still alive and kicking.... XD

Red Mage is interesting, that's all.

It started off as a perfectly reasonable newbie question, with some very responsible replies, then someone toss in the "S-E says RDM should melee" card. That drew some more heated discussion, and attracted a few rants.

Thankfully, it eventually turned into sane and detailed discussion on merit level RDM operations. Notably, Madrone chimed in with very detailed gear and game mechanism explanations of how RDM meleeing can operate optimally on Great Colibri, and Icemage reminded everyone how well a back line only RDM can work. Many others have added interesting personal perspectives and experiences as well, such as Callisto's puller/DD setup.

* * *

I don't know about other Red Mages, but as someone who has tried both DD and back line, I strongly prefer the back line for the sake of better experience points per hour. Not that I can't see myself doing (a lot) better next time I'm called upon to melee on RDM, but IMO, helping a party get safe and steady flow of exp is the service every RDM should strive to provide, front line, back line, or otherwise. Just that the majority of the time, that goal is best achieved from the back. (If someone really want to melee, there are quite a few other jobs for that!)

My finest moment as a melee'ing DD RDM was in Yhoator Jungle, on those mandies which I tell every single newbie RDM not to melee on. Being the top DD in an utterly broken party was fun in a way, but painful in many others. An experience I'll never forget--and will never care to repeat if at all possible--is probably the best way to sum it up.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: rdm as DD?

If a RDM is covering all his duty in party, and melee, the extra damage is a bonus--call it a 105% effort?

Calling a 105% effort a failure is rather harsh.

If RDM is doing all of his duties in PT, he's hardly doing worthwhile damage or TP gain in the eyes of real melee jobs.

For a RDM to really get good, worthwhile melee DoT, other obligations have to fall to the side. That's why half of this topic is so covieniently discussing the "What if" 3melee/3mage setup.

If a RDM has a WHM and BRD on the backline, the RDM obviously doesn't have to put as much into curing and less into Haste, but how often does this situation happen at merit level? I merit in phases because I can get my merits pretty easily through BRD and COR, but I can tell you right now this situation is not one I'm ever invited to. And its one I'd only accept that situation of the RDM really, really, really was on top of thier shit.

Additionally, why isn't /WAR or other melee subs aside from /NIN being looked at here? /NIN is good for some jobs, not so great for others. Its just the universally accepted subjob for meritpo. Doesn't mean its the best sub for your job in meritpo. I hardly ever /NIN on the jobs I have at meripo level because the DoT from /NIN is disgusting.

Seeing as RDM and COR get access to the same swords and Daggers, and stripping it down to the WS that come from those, I'm just not seeing where /NIN benefits you in meritpo, it sure as hell doesn't benefit me for any situation but pulling.

[Callisto]

Re: rdm as DD?

If RDM is doing all of his duties in PT, he's hardly doing worthwhile damage or TP gain in the eyes of real melee jobs.

For a RDM to really get good, worthwhile melee DoT, other obligations have to fall to the side. That's why half of this topic is so covieniently discussing the "What if" 3melee/3mage setup.

'good, worthwile' is pretty subjective here as most of us are stressing it as a form of supplemental damage. Like I stated before, if I were parse within 5-10% of the 3 DDs I'd probably boot them for leeching, but in some setups there's really nothing else you could do the help your party out more than adding in some extra damage.

As far as actually getting this sort of setup, I personally end up with either a WHM, or a BRD and a WHM in almost all my parties, alot of that is due who's on at the moment since they're usually LS parties though. Even in pickup groups though, I ended up with a WHM and/or a BRD more often than the ideal BRDx2 or BRD+COR RDM healer setup.

Additionally, why isn't /WAR or other melee subs aside from /NIN being looked at here? /NIN is good for some jobs, not so great for others. Its just the universally accepted subjob for meritpo. Doesn't mean its the best sub for your job in meritpo. I hardly ever /NIN on the jobs I have at meripo level because the DoT from /NIN is disgusting.

You must've missed the part where I said I always use /DRK for melee and several others use /BLU.

[Lmnop]

Re: rdm as DD?

BRD BRD RDM WAR MNK WAR setup

RDMs unable to attain this high of chains while meleeing is the least of what's wrong with this picture.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

If RDM is doing all of his duties in PT, he's hardly doing worthwhile damage or TP gain in the eyes of real melee jobs.

Have to agree with Callisto; you're missing the point completely. We're not competitors to melee DDs--melee RDM done right provides supplement damage, that's all.

That's why half of this topic is so covieniently discussing the "What if" 3melee/3mage setup.

I wonder if I'm on BBQ's blacklist or something; this post marks the third time I have to mention "Hey, I had a WHM in merit party without BRD at Greater Colibri camp, and turned out meleeing was the best option." Most of the discussion on RDM melee'ing are not predicated on having both a BRD and WHM, though they would apply in that case.

Additionally, why isn't /WAR or other melee subs aside from /NIN being looked at here?

Oh, and I was using RDM/DRK in that party, since I don't have a great dagger or capped skill or Evisceration. Not everyone is /NIN.

I hardly ever /NIN on the jobs I have at meripo level because the DoT from /NIN is disgusting.

Reread Madrone's posts. Gears, calculations, analysis--he's got the Dagger+Sword combo fully covered on Greater Colibri.

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

Campaign > meripo.
Mobs there, going by eye balling seeing how i don't have/use parsers, take the same general damage as VT mobs I've gone against in merit parties using thf and rdm dagger/swords. Best ws using rdm/drk, soul eater, no food, vorpal blade, 590. Average hits fall between 37-50. Soul eater melee hits 60-80.

Also, little bit off topic, BBQ, do you actually try to fully read everyone's posts or just pick and match keywords like /sea all inv, smn/whm = whm?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: rdm as DD?

Have to agree with Callisto; you're missing the point completely. We're not competitors to melee DDs--melee RDM done right provides supplement damage, that's all.

Supplemental damage doesn't matter that much when the whole point of PTs that level is to do as much damage as possible in a short amount of time. We could drop that WHM, get a 4th DD and put you on the backline, which almost always happens anyway, and chains would be higher. But then, this is the situation you're dodging, isn't it?

You're trying to make this about making meritting fun for your job, but everyone else just wants it done quickly. Its not about fun at all, just enhancing your character ASAP, really.

Additionally, this dicussions has been Colibri this and Colibri that. Do you realize there are more merit mobs out there than this one? Do you know the EXP climate varies by server? Smaller populated server hardly ever leave MJSP or Thickets Colibri Camps. That's how it was on Titan. Its not that way on Odin, I can assure you, we'll fill out any camp we can. What happens for the RDMs who follow your Colibri strat, but don't get to do Colibri?

What about Kindred, Abraxis, Trolls, Mamool and other mobs? You're just picking on the mob you can't cast many spells on.

Am I reading the thread? Yes, I am. Typical RDM diva talk, situations that I never see in merit PTs, "not much damage, but worthwhile" and lots of colibri talk. /DRK sub, OK so you have stun and some DRK JAs now, its not a better melee sub than /WAR. What am I missing here?

[Vyuru]

Re: rdm as DD?

Supplemental damage doesn't matter that much when the whole point of PTs that level is to do as much damage as possible in a short amount of time.

Agree with ya here.

We could drop that WHM, get a 4th DD and put you on the backline, which almost always happens anyway, and chains would be higher. But then, this is the situation you're dodging, isn't it?

While I agree here as well, I also view it as poor form to be kicking people from a party after it gets going.

Or you could just not join that kinda party I suppose.

However the topic of the conversation is, is DDing Rdm acceptable under these/similar circumstances? Not make a new party as other jobs become available/whatever.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: rdm as DD?

While I agree here as well, I also view it as poor form to be kicking people from a party after it gets going.

My point was the "scenario" talked about in this thread relies heavily on having WHM and BRD in PT so RDM as a rationale to melee. Healing and Hasting could be done by WHM, but I hardly see these PTs happen when I seek on BRD or COR. I'm not talking about dropping a WHM outright, I'm certainly not that cold, lol. I've actually had some higher chain PTs with a WHM as sole healer than I have with most RDM backing me, but that also speaks to the quality of the melees in those situation.

I take invites as COR and I seldom see the 3mage/3melee setup. Its usually me and a RDM with no extra backline, if the is extra backline, its a BRD and I'm technically the 4th DD since I go /RNG. The times I have seen RDM melee at such a level, its just wasn't impressive. It was kinda like watching a DRK in the RoZ/CoP days, when they landed a big hit, they talked about it, pointed it out and everyone else just went "Eh, who cares."

Anyway, my original point is still the best one - Campaign, Small EXP PTs or EXP PTs you form yourself are often the best situations for RDM melee. I'm sorry if I seem like a cruel bastard for not wanting you to melee in mainstream PT, but then, when I'm in a mainstream EXP PT, I just want fast EXP like everyone else. Everyone gives up a little something they want to make that happen, just the way it is.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

We could drop that WHM, get a 4th DD and put you on the backline, which almost always happens anyway, and chains would be higher. But then, this is the situation you're dodging, isn't it?

WHM was the party leader. Dodging? No.

Non-optimal parties happens. I'm just not elite enough to say "no", that's all.

You're trying to make this about making meritting fun for your job, but everyone else just wants it done quickly.

I think stated enough times that back line is my preference, for efficiency reason. However, didn't you once wrote everyone should be allowed into to level, especially those people we need at endgame but not so hot for exp parties?

I agreed with you; and I take invites from BLMs and WHMs alike. Sometimes, that leads to non-optimal set ups. Once in a blue moon, it means I'd do more for party if I melee.

While it was an interesting one time experience, I don't enjoy packing full to 57/60 inventory space and still feel like I'm missing melee pieces. Not at all. Don't know about other folks, but Melee RDM is not what I prefer in merit parties.

Additionally, this dicussions has been Colibri this and Colibri that. Do you realize there are more merit mobs out there than this one?

You really should re-read the posts.

Most of us saying melee'ing can and should be done also agree it's not for most situation and places. And, it's often (if not always) a sign of not-a-top chaining party.

The reason the discussion is mostly on Great Colibri is because we know it's not too useful elsewhere for the most part, so no point is discussing them. Duh.

Why are you ranting at people who basically advocate no melee'ing in most places and most parties anyway? I'd thought you would agree with us.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: rdm as DD?

think stated enough times that back line is my preference, for efficiency reason. However, didn't you once wrote everyone should be allowed into to level, especially those people we need at endgame but not so hot for exp parties?

I agreed with you; and I take invites from BLMs and WHMs alike. Sometimes, that leads to non-optimal set ups. Once in a blue moon, it means I'd do more for party if I melee.

I believe I was talking about LS parties at merit level, more specfically endgame linkshell merit PTs. Its a morale thing - those PLDs go out and die/lose EXP for your LS's agendas and often expect nothing in return for it. You're a poor leader or officer if you don't support your most vital members.

Melees will come and go, hell, some of them think they're hot shit and will leave you regardless, but the reason for high BLM and WHM turnover in endgame isn't ego, but a lack of appreciation, helping your WHMs and BLMs merits is one way of acknowledging thier effort. They really get so little out of sky and HNMs.

Mage players will stick with your LS if you support them. I can't count the manaburns I did for my BLMs, but they stayed because they knew it would be a fixture for weeks and months to come. If I died, I got up and started pulling for them all over again while weakened.

I was a real stickler about R Pump/O Hat runs too, and stuff similar. I didn't care if I had to issue points, I'd do whatever it took to make everyone stay and do those evens.

You really should re-read the posts.

Waste of time, I've read them, point is even on colibri, you're better off putting the sword away. You PT would have to be doing pretty poorly for your damage to even make a slight difference.

[Icemage]

Re: rdm as DD?

At lower levels (sub-72), melee RDM could be acceptable based on circumstances. After all, you're not always guaranteed to have the "perfect" mix of jobs, and being flexible is always good.

At 72+, you're in merit range, and there is very little reason to put up with sub-optimal party setups at this point. Many, many, many players at 75 have multiple jobs. It is not being unrealistic to expect to find a 2 bards and a red mage, or a bard/corsair/red mage at 75 these days, particularly if you do it a lot and have a reputation for being good at it.

If you're in an HNMLS, it's even easier, because all of the above are in high demand.

Sure, you "can" go out and perform decently in a number of camps as RDM/BRD/WHM/DDx3, but it's never going to match the damage and power output of RDM/BRD/BRD/3xDD or RDM/BRD/COR/3xDD, and that's the honest truth.

I just see no reason, when there are so many other things one can be doing with one's time in this game at level 75, when anyone should be settling for second best.


Icemage

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

Anyone who's the 'high demand' jobs I've chated with, would rather delevel it to 4 than most merit parties. Red Mage, fun to get to 75, yes. Merit, no. Hearing talk about exp/hr, soul sucking. Hearing talk about lolthf, soul sucking. Seeing party setups 4xDD brd, rdm results in me head banging the desk.

Generally, the best isn't always the best for all. 1 merit party I've had actually did a high chain passed 100. 1. Just 1. Using the method of best as described. What I believe everyone fails to realise, you can't always make the best, nor should you focus on it when making parties.

Only way its gonna be the best is if you enjoy it.

Not the exp/hr, nor the 'zomg bard!' If you enjoy it and the party chat is what you're eyes are on and not as much on your exp/limit point bars then that is the party which gives the best exp. For those are ones you'd always want.

My philosphy, take second best cause long run it'll be the best.
Which is why I'd go for rdm(&whm) DDing for 2008!

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

At 72+, you're in merit range, and there is very little reason to put up with sub-optimal party setups at this point. Many, many, many players at 75 have multiple jobs. It is not being unrealistic to expect to find a 2 bards and a red mage, or a bard/corsair/red mage at 75 these days, particularly if you do it a lot and have a reputation for being good at it.

I rarely see more than one BRD seeking for party, if that many. Haven't seen a COR75 seeking in over a month. You're assuming every party should have 2/6 slots to be filled with BRD and/or COR, that means 1/3 of the merit seeking population should have at least one of those jobs leveled.

That's an incredible assumption.

Sure, you "can" go out and perform decently in a number of camps as RDM/BRD/WHM/DDx3, but it's never going to match the damage and power output of RDM/BRD/BRD/3xDD or RDM/BRD/COR/3xDD, and that's the honest truth.

I just see no reason, when there are so many other things one can be doing with one's time in this game at level 75, when anyone should be settling for second best.

No argument about capability of that set up, but you're basically demanding everyone who don't have one of those jobs to level one--preferably BRD or COR.

The neophytes who picked the "wrong" job to 75 first, will simply have to level a second job in this scheme before he's allowed into any merit party? @_@