RDM vs. BRD post 55 (i hope we win)

[fuoco]

supposing a 5 member pt is looking for a rdm or brd. and then eligible rdm and brd suddenly pops up lfg! the pt leader can't believe his luck, at that point in time, what is going on in the his head?

after lvl 55 (mage ballad II) it is becoming more apparent that we compete directly for the MP refresher role in a pt. beside the friendly pld and the occasionally drk ^^ , i think all other melee unanimously prefer BRD to us namely because of brd's acc up buffs.

so i am thinking of/listing the ways why we are BETTER than them.

1. refresh selectively picks targets for refresh and brd hardly plays magic finale for the frontliners.

2. dispell has a shorter cool down time than magic finale.

3. rdm has a slightly larger arsenal of healing spells than /whm (ie. no cure IV).

4. (rdm/blm) chainspell+escape

ways that they are better
1. melee buffs songs

2. brd does not rely on mp for effectiveness

of course rdm and brd can play nice in the same pt ^^ but i just want to be BETTER than them ie. chosen b4 them.
so.... how do u think we do?

[Apple Pie]

of course rdm and brd can play nice in the same pt

You already have your answer, don't you? You don't have to compare yourself to BRD because you already know your role is different from theirs.

To be frank, I hate to see the post like this. There used to be one in BRD board though. I'm rather surprised to see LV58 RDM, who should know enough about jobs and their roles in a PT, is still posting something like this. Do you want to see endless and meaningless controversy between two jobs?

Well, this isn't a direct answer to your question but the first job I search for is always BRD. Now I often go out with one of my LS mates and 3,500+ XP per hour is always guaranteed even at this LV.

I'm proud of being RDM and I always have full respect on BRD. I even try to level it to 60. That's it.

[Weezingpipes]

I was recently rather sad about a level ago when for the first time in a long time I didn't group with a bard. So much so I was rather annoyed and it prompted a discussion with a bard friend of mine about how bards are too good, too needed etc. That is pretty true, post 60 Madrigals have a large effect on your melee's accuracy, while Gravity simply doesn't cut it. When I partied in Onzozo with a bard, Penta Thrust was always 4-5 hits, never under. When I didn't have a bard, missed a ton more, and Penta Thrust was averaging 1-3 hits, with the rare 5 hit. Quite saddening ; ;

So I started to think RDM needed their debuffs improved to the point where a BRD or RDM could be substitutional for one another. My friend though made some very valid points that as it is, RDM already has a load of useful things - significantly higher MP than a bard will ever attain, convert, good heals, can add some damage output with nukes and to a far lesser degree, melee (can melee for free hits between spells while due to casting time of songs a bard really cannot, and their suckier skill makes for the damage addition to be completely negligable). Also think RDM has lower recast dispel which this has been significant many times in parties, where a BRD would dispel and the monster would proceed to evasion/def boost almost immediately after, leaving a long period of time where the BRD could do nothing about it. Refresh is technically better than ballads also because there is no risk of positioning screwing up refreshes contribution, where bard relies on specific positioning to make sure the party gets the biggest benefit they can without overlapping songs.

Personally escape isn't really a factor for me, often times in parties a RDM/WHM is more useful than a RDM/BLM if only as someone also to do status cures instead of the WHM (not always the case, it is specific to what/where you are fighting). Also had a pretty decent party of me THF RDM BLM BRD PLD doing Wheeling Thrust -> Shark Bite for Light, which was pretty much annhilating monsters with the BLM's magic bursts. RDM had little trouble keeping up on heals and refreshes. Exp would have been better if everyone in the party was the same level, but the set up was good, and thankfully no deaths cuz only having Raise 1 would be the suck. Lack of group buffs also sucks, but RDM just P4 the PLD, me and the THF, and BRD did protectra 2 for the mages. In addition, have done plenty of parties without BLM but with a RDM and BRD. Downtime is basically non existant and with high damage melee, lacking a BLM isn't necessarily a bad thing (again, these set ups are pretty specific to what/where you are fighting).

All that being said, BRD is especially important over 60 to a party, but their role is entirely specific in support. They will never be even a remotely adequate substitute to a WHM as primary healer, never add significant damage output and my friend was right, if RDM could enfeeble as support to a point which was comparatively as good as BRD support with buff songs, there would literally be 0 reason to ever invite a bard. BRD also becomes less important the better melee equipment is too, but it does require incredibly high quality equipment to make Madrigals and Minuets relatively unimportant, which is unrealistic for many parties, where as a RDM will keep its own value regardless of the equipment quality of the group members.

20 million gils til I don't need a bard! Taking donations ; ;

[fuoco]

hmm sorry i did not intend to start a flame war. lemme show u why i post this.

Originally posted by Apple Pie

You already have your answer, don't you? You don't have to compare yourself to BRD because you already know your role is different from theirs.

i think at higher lvls for a taru rdm, my dmg effectiveness decreases drastically. this is expected with C in our elemental skills and lower int. we do less dmg with magic bursts (low int) and get higher chance for elemental resists (low elemental skills). the only things we can offer to a pt is our elemental skills+refresh+dispell.

however...

ask any melee friend that does not use mp and they'll tell u they prefer brd more than us, because they say brd can do refresh and dispell and more!

ie.

acc up >> enfeebling

result, if there is a 5 member pt lacking a brd and rdm they'll choose a brd over a rdm.

Originally posted by Apple Pie


I'm rather surprised to see LV58 RDM, who should know enough about jobs and their roles in a PT, is still posting something like this. Do you want to see endless and meaningless controversy between two jobs?

hehe i may be 58 but i am still learning my job with patches and what not ^^.

Originally posted by Apple Pie

Well, this isn't a direct answer to your question but the first job I search for is always BRD. Now I often go out with one of my LS mates and 3,500+ XP per hour is always guaranteed even at this LV.

since you are already a rdm i understand why u look for a brd instead of a rdm , i would too naturally if i were ^^. My question was whether we could compete with a brd for the 6th spot in a pt looking for a brd or rdm .

Originally posted by Apple Pie

I'm proud of being RDM and I always have full respect on BRD. I even try to level it to 60. That's it.

amen. i like brd too if they're in my pt.
i hiss at them if i'm lfg with them. actually i just slap them ... endlessly ...
:spin:

[Moggymog]

Yes, I hate to be frank. But if you have a BLM and a WHM in a party and the choice was BRD or RDM to fill the last slot. They'll take the bard, every time. No question. Futile to deny it.

Both jobs have different roles to play and both offer something to the party. Both can be effectively played together as well. In fact, I've played with a bard for a while now. But the Bard will be taken over the red mage. It has more to bring to the party than the RDM. Ballad is more liked than refresh, madrigal and minuet are more appreciated than debuffs.

I've even seen 60+s who say they didn't even know gravity lowers evasion. That says a lot.

[Weezingpipes]

If anything Refresh is more appreciated than Ballads. Like I mentioned don't have to worry about overlapping issues, and say a PLD could get Refresh and get Minuets/Madrigals without having to worry about having an mp buff going at the same time. In that regard refresh is superiour. It isn't that madrigal and minuet are more appreciated than debuffs, they are simply better. You deal more damage with minuet than you would without it and only having dia 2, and you miss less with madrigal than you do with gravity on a monster. It isn't so much people don't know the benefit, just those debuffs are incredibly weak in comparison to the relevant buff songs. Sort of why I think the enfeebles should be made better, but if they are too good there is literally no reason for a bard.

[Deodorant]

The main advantage bard has over rdm is bard's ability to buff the melees (whereas rdm is limited to haste, really).

I think it's pretty obvious; if a party has 5 members already, the smart move would be to choose a bard over an rdm. Good bards are better than the best rdm's at keeping mp flow going. Sadly, even though I am an rdm, I must admit that bards are the superior support job.

As a trade-off, bards get shitty looking AF, and absolutely no solo capability, so not too many complaints from me

Having said that, in my opinion the best backline has to be blm/whm, brd/whm and rdm/whm (assuming nobody dies).

edit

Originally posted by fuoco
amen. i like brd too if they're in my pt.
i hiss at them if i'm lfg with them.

Lies. Everyone knows bards get mass invites to parties without having to put up the party invite sign :spin:

[Moggymog]

Weezing Pipes -

You're only stressing the points that I already made. By saying that someone doesn't know what a certain spell does, its because they can't tell if it really does it. If one doesn't know gravity reduces evasion, then they won't expect it. They won't see a huge improvement in their accuracy, only the creature moving at a slower rate. Compare the debuffs to songs. On second thought, maybe its better if we don't.

I'm level 73. At my level you'll see a lot of mages with Errant's gear on. I see BLMs and WHMs landing any debuff they want against an enemy, except for things like silence. You do need a red mage to keep the silence up repeatedly against weapons. But silence is really the only move I see other mages have problem landing and keep landed on a target. And that's really disappointing.

People say Red Mage is the best enfeebler. Sure, it is. I can enfeeble better than anyone at my level. But I can see other mages enfeebling pretty must almost as good. Let's say, "Good enough." I can't madrigal/minuet the party, either. And we all know, a lot of the creatures around 63+ start going up on the evasion and hit points.

The only real way I see my self keeping downtime low that a Bard can't do, is healing more than the white mage and converting when I need to. I can always keep the WHMs MP very high, and ninja tank helps ^^ (war/nin, nin/war).

[fuoco]

i have read posts by Moggymog and weezing pipes at higher levels it seems that our gimpness is exposed even further.

the reason i gather, is our jack-of-all-trades trait. other classes can do what we do, as illustrated by Moggymog's enfeebling example.
our A in enfeebling won't be a consideration for pt invites. our refresh role can be substituted by brd when they get ballad II.

ballad I + ballad II > refresh

lately i pt with a japanese summoner with fenrir m(_ _)m and at that time she has acc up and stat boost. at higher lvls she will have dispell-ra.

edit:
i removed uneeded pessimism from the post. i still love rdm and i will continue to play it until i am done with ffxi.

[Spiriter]

I would just like to point out one thing

Bard = Pure Support Class

Rdm = Mix even solo ability(better for farming etc..)


How about you just compare your ability as a rdm to another rdm?
Apples to apples/ Oranges to Apples

I am only a lvl 30 rdm, 32 whm and 31 Bard And I dont know what its like at higher lvls yet but Ill tell you this. All the jobs are different and have advantages and disadvantages.

[Lucy]

hmm,

If the original thread starter is asking about which will win as in PT selection, I would say the BRD will get the invitation. However there is a really big chance that the RDM and BRD looking for PT will get into the same PT together.

I have no further comment about why is that as everybody has said the same thing too. I myself will want a BRD in PT, as they most of the time reduces downtime thus increasing EXP that you get.

Sorry if this is off topic but I want to say here about my experience with RDM/BLM BRD/WHM and BLM/WHM support line. We were fighting weapons in Ro'Maeve at 71 pass the moongate. I have to say the the exp that we got was very nice. We usually chain 4 to 5 chain with 230+ last chain. Every weapon just die through this process, Melee get TP, Light renkei followed by 2 MB ..... 100+>300+>800+> 2 MB 800+>400+ .... If that wasnt enough to kill it BLM just continue nuking it till it dies.

Actually I was afraid that I will be healing a lot since I'm the main healer but we kill it quite fast so I didnt have to Cure that much. Fortunately PT leader said its OK if I keep my blm sub as my WHM is still level 1 :sweat:

[Weezingpipes]

I am only a lvl 30 rdm, 32 whm and 31 Bard And I dont know what its like at higher lvls yet but Ill tell you this. All the jobs are different and have advantages and disadvantages.

And those differences just get larger and larger over time. Until 55 or so I had no real preference between BRD or RDM. Often prefered RDM because Refresh at 41, Gravity seemed effective enough to lower evasion and help melee miss rate. 60+ is when it got rather sad. The gap in usefulness in BRD vs RDM is much wider, enough to say RDM is at a notable disadvantage in the support role. They aren't quite as effective nukers at higher levels due to lower elemental skill too, and lower spell lines anyway.

I'm seeing a trend 60 in the "advantages and disadvantages" department 60+. Some jobs have many advantages ie BRD is incredibly secure in its support role, RDM is not quite as good as it used to be. Certain melee jobs excel, others fall terribly behind. Point being, not really seeing disadvantages to some jobs so much. Last night was in a party fighting Steelshells, rather annoying because they were basically spamming stoneskin and def boost constantly and not bubble showering much. Anyway, made me wish I had a RDM, but the more I thought on it, just made me wish my BLM had subbed RDM instead for Dispel, since the BRD's dispel couldn't keep up due to longer cycle time, and the BLM was doing tremendous damage. Literally the only disadvantage the BRD had was slow recast of dispel, and it could have been worked around simply by the BLM subbing RDM instead.

I'm also seeing an utter truck load of RDM who I leveled with at one point or another spending as much time seeking parties as melee jobs do, while mediocre at best bards are being invited over RDM simply because the buffs help more than enfeebles. Not a statement about the people playing RDM because many of them are quite good, but does show a bit of an imbalance.

Honestly I would love if RDM and BRD were equally substitutional as they were at lower levels, when debuffs had a noticeable effect and helped the melee a lot. This would of course mean BRD would need to get some things as compensation (maybe Silence/Stun song for example would help round them out better). Many people I know absolutely do not want to party without a bard simply because it makes that much of a difference.

My best suggestion to many RDM is do set ups like Lucy described. I've been in groups with RDM as primary healer and simply because you kill fast enough it works out ok, and amounts to less downtime with ballads and refresh.

[Carbon]

As of this point (Lv61), I prefer RDM to BRD. Maybe part of the reason is that I've never partied with a bard since.....Level 40 I think.

The two main reasons why I prefer RDM is 1.) backup heals and 2.) magic burst.

The RDM in my static party still does rather impressive MBs at Lv60 in Valley of Sorrows. BLM might do a 600 point MB on Distortion, RDM follows with a 300 point MB. BRD can't do that. Does this change later on? Does RDM MB become progressively weaker?

Also note the severe lack of bards. I don't think RDMs will face too much competition from BRDs, simply because there aren't enough bards to begin with.

Every bard friend I knew in game has since retired the job, complaining that it was too boring. Highest level bard I know and partied with stopped at 41.

[Weezingpipes]

Every bard friend I knew in game has since retired the job, complaining that it was too boring. Highest level bard I know and partied with stopped at 41.

Kinda funny since most people I know who started leveling bards did so due to the lack of them. Even the most mediocre played bard can add more to a party than a well played RDM filling the support role simply by design (by mediocre played, I mean the ones who simply play ballads as they fade, play madrigal/minuet and redo those as they fade, nothing more). On my server there is basically 1-2 bards at around every level over 60, and they all know being a bard is an easy ticket to 75. They level so fast though often you have to wait for the next up and coming bards to group with to catch up ; ;

Anyway the other difference to is Threnodies help damage a fair bit (bursts and skillchain damage), so even though a bard cannot burst for damage, the end result is basically the same, in regards to magic bursts at least.

[AtraposBLM]

BRD > RDM from lv55+. Simple as that.

Equally skilled players, a bard is simply more helpful.

Should you really be worried? No. Do a /sea all brd 55-75 and you'll see that it's severely lacking, as getting bard to level 25 is harder than just about anything else in this game, and will only get worse when PS2 gets released. A lot of uninformed people just don't bother to play with a bard.

Also, a lot of people don't like playing with bards as bad bards are nearly useless - i.e. ones that don't keep ballads refreshed, minuet refreshed, threnodies at the right time, dispel at the right time, etc. The same can be said about redmages though. I can't count how many times I've gone multiple fights without Refresh, despite me saying Refresh please! over and over. Also, redmages that just never dispel piss me off...plus, it's harder to keep 5-6 people refreshed (drk, pld, whm, blm, blm, rdm party, for example) than it is to keep ballad on the same people (although the dark would rather have the accuracy up songs).

You'll be competing for a specialty role...you'll get parties faster than melee and blm's in most scenarios, unless there are tons of rdm's on for some reason (rarer than lots of blm's, drk's, sam's, etc.).

Don't whine about not getting invites. People don't like it when they've been used to 2-3 hours LFP when you've gotten a free ride.