na redmages

[Bamce Sylph]

you 12.95$ a month != the 60$'s a month the 5 other people are paying. think of it as a party, u don't want to show up to a party looking like a slob, u take measures to make yourself look presentable.

[Draconis]

People need to remember that it's not all NA players that are new to this game.


Stereotypes are one of the most harmful things in existance. Instead of saying NA players, please find a phrase that is not a harmful nor degrading statement, yet that which gets the point across.


It is beginning to also grate at me that people think it is always the newb NA players that are the problem. News....


Not all new players are NA. My linkshell has new players from Singapore and Japan in it. One speaks english quite well and knows a little Japanese. The other speaks Japanese fluently and knows enough english to carry a conversation with us on a regular basis.

It also helps that my linkshell knows a little Japanese, myself included.

But, as a general rule, when someone see's a new player with an underlevelled sub or whatnot, they immeaditley Think " NA NOOB "

~Shakes his head~

Let me give some people a head's up what it's like over here. First of all, when this game came out in North America, there was very little information on how to exactly play it properly. The guide that comes with the game gives no real clue besides very bare minimal basics over controls and bare minimum basic concepts of the game.

When the Strategy Guide came out for the game, I immeaditley purchased it, and found it......lacking as a whole.

I am an MMORPG Veteran, I have played many a MMO, and let me state flat out, right now, that the Strategy guide for FFXI was by far the WORSE possible piece of gaming literature in existance. The Strategy guide is horrendously underinformative.

It gives bare bones concepts, tosses in a few macro ideas, and generally does not explain things well nor in depth. It does not give true reasoning why certain job combo's suck, or why certain job combo's rock. It gives out a few recipes, it only details information up to level 50, the list can go on forever the problems I saw with this guide.

But beyond that....let's look at the other problems. Any new MMORPG player usually knows enough to go to a website detailing info on a game.

With FFXI, when it first came out, there was practically NOTHING, NIL, NADA ZIP ZILCH ZERO on this game, save for maybe Shadow Dragons's Web site.

Very little actual information that I, as an MMO veteran would consider helpful, was out there. It was practically nil. Nothing was really there stating how a Job REALLY worked, what to do to properly level from level's 1-30. How one should do it, how one can make Gil quickly in the game, etc. Gamefaq's Job Faq's I even find unsatisfactory in actual detailed information on what I want to know, save maybe the summoner faq. That at least provides In depth information to an extant.

I remember when I first logged into FFXI, I was completley overwhelmed. Windurst to me was FREAKING HUGE. I could get lost easily, but frankly, I was loving it. I remember at the time thinking 3000 Gil was ALOT of money. Now it's basically Chump change to me.
I had no real idea how to level, I was getting used to the controls, I had no honest clue about how to use the macros, what my job consisted of besides thwacking a mob repeatedly, etc. Getting used to the controls took a bit of time, adjusting them to my needs. Also, it isn't really until about Valkurm Dunes that alot of players really begin to understand just what the purpose of their job is besides endless melee/nuking.


Put simply, there was, and STILL IS, a SEVERE Lack of information on this game. The Players over in Japan have milestones ahead of us, as their resources for Information are largely more vast then ours, and any patch that comes out they discover the new quests, recipes, etc pretty quick because those players can submit the information on a fairly quick basis to website's. It's like in AC1 or AC2 or Everquest, the new story arc's, quests, and uber items are discovered and detailed intimatley on websites well within hours, if not days of their release.


We ourselves are still getting into this phase. The serious MMO gamers who do not immeaditley hit level 75/37 are taking their time to explore the game, enjoying it and levelling up with their friends. I have seen my friends who I got into Ifrit, (( I was the door man so to speak )) Hit level 60 or higher within 4 weeks of playing the game. One stopped going to his classes entirely and one even left our linkshell because we were not high level enough to party with her anymore. Come to find out, she hit the cap so fast come December that she quit the game entirely. She burned herself out. Two others I have seen do this as well. It isn't worth it.


When the PS2 release hits, I find myself somewhat dreading that day. I don't know if PS2 users have regular internet website access through the console, but I can guarantee you not everyone has a computer and net access. Some families are only able to scrape enough cash together to get their child a ps2 or game system for christmas etc.

Why do I dread it?

Not because of the influx of new players, but because of the influx of new players who are overwhelmed and POORLY Informed.

I would like to ask all to please remember their first days playing this game, and to remember their own " Noob " Mistakes. They occurred, we all know they did.

Try and place yourself in that players shoes as well, please. Try and understand where they are coming from and why. If you feel they need help in understanding the game's concepts, then please do so.

For an example, I was in a party a long time ago in Yhoator jungle with an Elvaan Red Mage, Taru Whm, Hume Samurai, Hume Warrior, and Hume Ninja. I myself was a Mithran Dark Knight/Warrior. I had just hit 30 and finally became a true damage dealer. The tanks, no matter what they tried, could NOT keep the mob off of me. Just with Berserk+Mithkabob I was doing so much damage that they couldn't peel it off. This was fine as we stayed alive, but I was noticing that the Red mage was not casting Gravity. When we finished off one of the mobs, I turned and asked him if he had it.

He stated yes. When asked why he wasn't casting it, he stated he thought the spell was useless. I kindly corrected him and explained to him why Gravity was so vital to me and the others in the party. He then stated that he didn't know that as being the reason. He then started casting gravity, and the difference was noticeable.

This guy had hit close to level 30, and really had no clue how to properly play a red mage, how to skillchain, how to magic burst, none of it. He just honestly didn't know. And it wasn't because he was stupid. He just didn't know. NO ONE had stopped and explained anything to him until I did. He knew his job was basically to heal people and melee. This sounds like Valkurm Dunes mentality and I could see it, as most people will grab a rdm in Dunes and ask them to be main healer if no Whm is present.

When I stopped and explained things to this player, taking my time during fights and explaining during downtime and fighting through tells, he picked up immeaditley and INSTANTLY became alot better. His Skillchains fired off on time with everyone elses, I was able to Magic burst the mobs after his went off and Mine and The Samurai's skillchain went off. The mobs died ALOT faster. It made a largely noticeable difference. In a bit of patience and conversation, the player went from sucky, to knowing what the hell they were doing.

Not everyone has the resources that we do, not the exact knowledge of how to play this game when we start out. If you guys REALLY want to help others, take the time to talk to them. For those who tell you STFU, well, that is what a blacklist is for. Let them learn on their own. For those who are willing to listen, and hear you out, you may come up with a very vital player in future times, and it may mean the difference between a party invite or not. Remember, reputation is key in this game. A good honest player will remember you in future days as having taken the time to help them out. They will respect you for it, and your reputation in the game grows because of it.


This is just one example. I as a player always try and take my time out to help people, despite what I may want or desire to do at the time. Not everyone is this way I realize, but it is my nature to want to help others. If I can help someone to enjoy the game as much as I do, then that makes my day more then anything. Helping someone understand, or complete a quest, or get their sub job items, etc. It makes a huge difference. And people remember you for it.


Just please, try and remember, we were all new at this game once, and truly and utterly clueless at one level or another, no matter how in depth that level may have been. Truth is, only experience taught us what we needed to truly know. Not everyone has that. Nor does everyone have the information to provide them an inkling of a clue at the beginning.

Please, I ask all of you, keep this in mind.

Let's just stop the NA and JP differences. If you want to call a player an idiot, call that player an Idiot, but please don't call them NA or JP because in all honesty, you really have no clue as to just what their nationality is, nor what Nation they are in. They could be in Europe, Singapore, Japan, The United States of America, anywhere.


We are all human beings, regardless of origin. In all things, you will run across absolutley fantastic players, and those who's skills are abyssmally low. Nationality has nothing much to do with it. The reasons stated above do.

Please, keep that in mind.

Help others. Remember, a good deed done, is a good deed returned.


Draconis

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Draconis
(incoherent rambling)

This is a message board, please take your incredulously long fanfiction somewhere else

[Draconis]

Hunh, didn't realize it was that long actually.


Oh well.

/shrug

[echidna]

above individuality, americans love to belittle others. There's no greater joy than outing the wierdo, and no greater pleasure than mocking those obviously beneath one.

just don't invite those nimrods into your PT's, for every rdm/nin, there's probably ten Rdm/blm with electrum panties ready to sit.

We're all dicks, all across the globe. The fool redmages who gimp themselves, and the dorks cawklin' about message boards goin'

"oh, Edmund, those silly NA's are at it again! Oh how silly they were, a mage with sword and helm! how ridiculous it was, ho ho ho ho!"

this is probably the best post ive ever read on this messageboard.

[Kousai]

Originally posted by Deodorant

This is a message board, please take your incredulously long fanfiction somewhere else

the post wasnt incoherent rambling, it makes alot of sense to help people who dont know.
from what i've read of your posts, you just seem like an ass

[Bamce Sylph]

all that i can cleary recall thru everything that ever annoyed the hell out of me was /l F@$%ing na players!!!! i was quietely aefarming, and someone comes up and takes part of my kite/swarm/whatever,
i ask him to stop
he says why,
i explain that i engaged them first, while not being claimed its not nice
he says so?
i explained once again, that i have dotted all of the mobs and intend to kill them,
him, good then your helping me,
me, no, no i'm not
why don't u just kill them one by one?
me, cyclone>>>>gust slash
from there that conversation degrades into me blacklisting him and telling him to Foff, and guess what my next line of text was? yeah, thats right /l F@$%ing na players!!!! /cry 12 more days till ps2 release, yay for perma anon

[Quezi]

First of all, there is a lack of info on this game. But the problim isnt that. Many many people, infact the people that are always the problims, wouldnt read it if it was there.

Someone not knowing what they are doing is alot differant than someone who thinks they do know what they are doing. It SHOULD be painless for someone to tell someone else something they seem to not know, then that person from then on knowing it, and useing that knowledge to the good of all. The problim is that DOESNT happen! Its not somuch that NA players are new and unexperianced. Its that they are mostly selfish idiots. PLEASE NOTE again that i am NA and have been playing mmorpgs with mostly other NA for over 5 years.

The problim isnt somuch that theres a lack of info, while that would help people like me and most people who read these forums and other sites, it wouldnt really change the overall problim. The problim is not that the knowledge isnt out there or freely given, its that people choose not to follow it, or are aware they are screwing up but dont care becaus they dont want to bother leveling their sub, or dont want to spend a day farming every now and then.

Now again, not all NA players are like this, and some JP players are like this, but the fact is that your chance of running into a NA player who is a selfish little immature retard is far higher than someone who is not. Again, this is my experiance as a dedicated NA mmorpg player of 5 years.

Infact most people in general are idiots. The problim then is, the NA idiots havent quit left, like im sure most the JP ones did after a wile. That or cultural differances make differant sorts of people be attracted to mmorpgs in NA than in other places. I dont know. Im still not convinced that i shouldnt be replaceing 'NA players' with 'people in general', but im willing to give the JP the benifit of the doubt. I dont have enough experiance playing such diverse games to say.

Also dont look at the ps2 release as bad=P Most console gamers are not into mmorpgs, they dont have the time or attention span to work it. Yes for a wile there will probibly be an influx of pre-30 people, but it will settel. And personaly after those said 5 years of mmorpging, im looking forward to getting to sit in the living, recline, and play on my nice new big screen tv=p I bought a ps2 specificly to play ffxi on, there was no other reason, and most ps2 games i have encounterd are crap =/

[Shiia]

I don't personally mind explaining things to new commers. Really I think its for some part our duty to explain things to the new commers so they can get some information and skill from us. What I do hate are the ignorant people who doesn't listen but instead they defend themselves with fasle information thinking they know more about this game and continue playing in the wrong path in the wrong lvl. Rdm is one of the roles that changes dramatically from 32, then to 41. Our melee function is nearly null post 50 (which doesn't mean you can't but not very effective). Some people can do all, but most can't myself included.

[Draconis]

Aye Shiia,


I agree fully. I have run into players, as well as my linkshell having done so, who have been both complete asses and then very good people, who have the patience to listen.


All mmorpgs are going to have jerks in them, regardless. The problem I have is people automatically assume it is always a NA player. This isn't always the case. As I said, a new player could be from Japan or Singapore, Europe or the Us or anywhere else. It's the whole NA bashing, (( And yes, us north american players bash ourselves as well )) issue that gets me. Bashing in good fun is fine, or ribbing as some may call it.

But bashing because a person feels they are above someone who is of a certain nationality, is downright racist. Not to mention Ignorant. It is this that I directly disagree with.



As for part of the whole issue of False information and people defending themselves. Part of this is due to lack of proper explanatory information. Another part of it is due to sheer and complete ignorance. (( I myself suffered a bit of this when I first started this game. Lack of information downright SUCKS. ))

(Heh, note I said part, not all of it. Some people just refuse to listen and no matter what you tell them, continously bang their head against the wall in ignorance. A wise man once said, " An argument is wasted on deaf ears. " How so very True. )

For example, I have a huge issue with the lack of sub job information. And what I mean by information is IN DEPTH information, stat comparisons, HP and MP comparisons, Active and passive ability benefits, and just what exactly they do for the main job and what the bottom line of their meaning is.

Most people tend to state this combo works, or that combo sucks. Never really giving any real reason. Or, as you said, stating false information. For example, a player stating Red mages can do awesome damage in melee.


~Sweatdrops~ I myself know they can't, as a Mithra levelling it, I could'nt hit for anything near the Damage I am used to doing as a Dark Knight. Not to mention I seemed to miss a ton at times. Really aggravating.

I guess a huge example, of rather, what I seek when it comes to FAQ's and Combinations is a statement of comparisons. For example, the benefits of subbing Rdm under Dark is great for solo purposes, some BCNM fights, or farming. For Party purposes it may help, but not as much as Dark Knight/Warrior due to the fact that Berserk gives a huge increase in damage. Like up to more then 80 points of damage per hit.

Most FAQ's don't state info like this. They just state " This works" Or " This sucks " Essentially. We need better information. The boost to our player ability would be huge with proper info.

I do however thank you for helping out new players. I myself feel responsible to help out those who are new to this game, and do my utmost to help them learn how to play. Kindness is an infection that spreads well once properly placed.

Ah well, it's late. Night all and have a good one. Thanks for the good Debate.


Draconis

[Quezi]

Yeah, the quality isnt really that high.

I have been all over these forums trying to find real data on various things. There just doesnt seem to be much. Im the kind of person who likes to know things. Being that im usualy always an important class such as a healer or support class or tank, and not just a damage dealer who can space out and simply make sure they do asmuch damage as they safley can, wich you are able to learn to do by feal quite quickly, i need to understand how all classes work.

The fact that you cant play all classes to a level high enough to really be able to speak from personal experiance on all of them means that you need to find statistics to compare to what you CAN speak personaly on in order to really understand. I need statistics, i wont take the word of people just becaus they are a high level in said class, iv learned that you cant trust people like that, you can trust it to work and not be horribly bad, but you cant trust it to be the best or only way, maby if you are passive, but not if you take an active role in party formation/leading and, more crucialy, if you attempt to take a handfull of random people becaus you cant find anyone else and try to figure out the best way to use the odd and unbalanced party. I firmly beleave that there is a way to make any possable combination of people work, how well ofcorse always changes, but they will get better exp than standing around=P Its not possable to have a party incapable of safely gaining exp=P And some of the best exp iv ever had has been from odd combinations who just happen to find a 'sweet spot' where at X level with Y mod insertcrazysoundingpartyhere has done verry well.

Anyway, it seems like there would be more solid info out there. Not just oppinions and passive observation but real statistical data,

[Tukka]

For example, I have a huge issue with the lack of sub job information. And what I mean by information is IN DEPTH information, stat comparisons, HP and MP comparisons, Active and passive ability benefits, and just what exactly they do for the main job and what the bottom line of their meaning is.

For stat comparisons, between races and subjobs, this site has just about everything you could need.

With regard to spells and job abilities, including passive abilities, it's just a matter of knowing what those spells/abilities do and how they work. Most if it as pretty straightforward, you just need to look at the spells and job abilities for the job you're thinking about subjobbing, and only look at the abilities and spells level 37 and below, excluding the 2 hour ability. From that it's not too difficult to use your imagination and draw your own conclusions about how a subjob's spells/abilities compliment the main job.

Allakhazam's job abilities and spell list section of the site lists most of the pertinent information reading all the abilities and spells, and if you read the comments left by people about the spells/abilities, it will usually answer any other questions you have about them. Though there are a few inaccuracies in a few of the spell's listings, it's largely an accurate resource.

Most people tend to state this combo works, or that combo sucks. Never really giving any real reason. Or, as you said, stating false information. For example, a player stating Red mages can do awesome damage in melee.

I agree that there usually isn't much to be learned from this kind of discussion, but sometimes people will give examples, anecdotes, and reference fact- and statistic-based reasons for believing what they do about why one combo works and another sucks, and when it's viable for a Red Mage to melee and when it isn't, ect.

Personally, I think there is plenty of information out there, both for the beginner and the advanced player. There's certainly enough out there to achieve a reasonable level of competence, and if you exercise a bit of diligence, you can find the information and good advice necessary to expand and refine your gameplay to an even higher level of competence.

The problem with the NA community is that too many people are unwilling to learn, or too busy to learn, or too lazy, ect. I don't think it's a problem with North American culture as much as it's a problem with the subculture/demographic that this game appeals to in this country.

There's too many children and immature adults... though most North American players are fine, it's just a minority (still an unfortunately significant percantage) that spoils things for the rest of the community. It only takes one really incompetent party member out of six to virtually wreck the party's performance. It only takes one really bad attitude to ruin a good time for everyone else. And like I said earlier this thread, the bad sticks out in the mind and sticks around in memory moreso than the good. The horrible experience with a lame party member is noticed, hated, remembered and complained about... the good experience with the quietly competent party members is enjoyed but isn't particularly memorable and doesn't have the same "impact" for most people as a bad experience... so in some ways the problem will always seem worse than it is. :\

[Tulerin]

The problem with the NA community is that too many people are unwilling to learn, or too busy to learn, or too lazy, ect. I don't think it's a problem with North American culture as much as it's a problem with the subculture/demographic that this game appeals to in this country.

You should really stop getting your information off the back of a cereal box.

[Tukka]

You should really stop getting your information off the back of a cereal box.

My information comes off a cereal box and your reply comes out of a tin can, so I guess we're even.

It probably isn't worth it to bother responding at all to someone who picks a single line out several paragraphs worth of text to refute (if you can call it that) it with only a single line of text of their own, but since I didn't go into any detail expounding on that particualr detail, I'll take your comment as an invitation to give an explanation.

Mainly, I think it's the "Final Fantasy" name. I think that thanks to the name alone, you get a lot of fans of the series who ordinarily would not be interested in playing an MMO. Needless to say, there a huge difference between a MMO and a console RPG... everybody who plays the game probably realizes this pretty quick, but it still doesn't necessarily mean the become instantly well acclimated to the genre.

So you get a lot of people who have not only never played an MMO before, but they are also people who until now, have had very limited interest in MMOs, despite the fact that popular MMOs have been marketed here for years (unlike Japan, or at least as is my understanding). That doesn't mean they'll be bad players, but I have to think that there are still a good number of them who don't really have a mentality well suited to play nice and to play well in the MMO environment, but are too stubborn/addicted/whatever to quit the game altogether.

To my knowledge, this isn't a problem that would exist to the same extent in Japan. Before Final Fantasy XI, there weren't very many good and popular MMOs that a person who can only speak Japanese could enjoy. So in Japan you get a higher percentage of players who got interested in FF11 because they wanted to play a good MMO, not because they're a fan of the Final Fantasy series.

I think the Final Fantasy name attracts younger players to a greater degree than other games. Children tend not to be as patient, mature, ect. as adults, and as a result, most (not all) children don't end up performing as well as adults in either the gameplay or social aspects of the game.

Like I said though, I think it's a minority of NA players who are the problem... it's just that it's a larger "problem minority" than exists in other MMOs, and it's a larger "problem minority" than exists among the Japanese community.

So that's my theory. It's just a theory, it could be wrong. It's nothing definitive enough to put even on a cereal box. I didn't do any focus groups, run any surveys, or look at any hard figures to form the theory, but it's about the only explanation I can come up with to explain why the NA playerbase in this game especially seems so rough around the edges (along with the fact that our minds magnify the negative and often overlook the positive). If you've got a better explanation, you're welcome to share it.

[Quezi]

Being that I take to trioing far more than the average player(me, my rl friend, and a random person we pick up... its just what we do most the time, we never get a full party unless we have reason to beleave it will work and everything will go fine for the several houres we expect out of a good party, or we can put togeather a group of people we have personaly played with, so most the time its me, my friend, and 1 or two outsiders)..

er.. yes, anyway, being that i am used to haveing single outside persons far more than most players, from my experiance i must say that, sadley, the percentage of 'bad' players is far higher than the above poster thinks.

It would be nice to beleave that a single person can ruin things. But really in a party with only one moron the other members can talk some sence into them more often than not simply becaus they outnumber them and, being insecure mindless followers as most said morons are, will attempt to fit in by conforming *even tho they will not care to remember it for future partying*. That said, if you are in a bad party, its more than one person who is screwing it up. Infact you, by not saying anything, could be part of the problim!

That said a surefire way of detecting idiots is simply to look at people who refuse to join small partys. A good player will know that slow exp with three or four people is better than no exp at all, and also realise that a small party is easyer to manage, and thus has a smaller chance of failing, whereas a large one is always a gamble, even AFTER you finaly get an invite.

I find that 1 out of three players is tollerable, 1 out of 3. 33%. Thats not lal that bad but still...