na redmages

[Mystician]

Bottom line is be what you want to be when you are playing solo. But in parties, you have to consider the needs of everyone by choosing a practical subjob.

At higher levels, RDM's must stay away from mobs that use strong AOE. No point in provoking a gob that'll throw a bomb at you when you have a Paladin or Monk to take that damage.

Any extra MND or INT points will often determine if an enfeeble such as Paralyze, Shock, Slow, will land or not.

We're not here to say "you must be this" or force you to come out from a "cookie cutter". We're just offering some experience. The dynamics of a party usually contains damage dealers, tanks, healers, and debuffers. For an RDM, he cannot come any close to a Dark Knight, Dragoon or Black Mage for damage dealing, and can nowhere tank as well as a Paladin. What does he do best? Enfeebling and healing support.

This NA generalization will exist until the majority of NA players focus more on the party instead of the individual. Yes, it's good to think about and consider different subs to know how they would affect your character, but keep in mind you're playing a game with other real people.

[Taodyn]

One more time

Let's try this again. I am not selfish, arrogant, or stubborn (save this futile attempt to educate the ignorant and eleviate some of the racism that is gripping this board). I am, however, from North America. Your plain and simple attempts to say "most NA do this, so all NA probably do this" is both sad and disheartening. I will give any player a chance, no matter what combo they wish to play. And you know, if they can do their job fine. I don't care if they're a WAR/BLM. That's their choice. And if they can do just as good a job keeping me alive as a BLM/WHM, why do I care?

Your opinion (along with the opinions of many people on this board) is based simply in elitism. You want to feel better about yourself and your job combo so you belittle others. At least you were right in representing your stereotypical NA in that.

And before we hear another person saying JP players are just better, let us remember that we are comparing apples and oranges. You know what? University students know more than high school students. Really, they do. Let's ignore the fact that they had years more experience and once went through the same level. They must just be better.

NA has nothing to do with the equation. Being an idiot does. A good player can make a RDM/WAR work. I mean we have lvl 50+ Galka WHMs. Where does that fit in your little scheme of "be this job combo or you will lose"?

The saddest part is that you are missing out on the true depth of this game. If Square had intended people to fall into specific combos only certain combos would be available. Your opinion (and it is just that, an opinion, not a fact) that only certain combos can work, is a true sign of inexperience.

Oh and when was the last time a real player accepted a PT member without checking their job AND sub? If a JP PT gets a RDM/WAR, then that was what they were looking for. You don't just run into people and say "hop on in." Or do you? This was your point after all, wasn't it?

[Taodyn]

Mystician

I understand completely what you are saying and agree with you. The PT must always come first, but your example has left out something. Of course a DRK would offer more dmg, but what of those players who have yet to obtain an adv job. I'm leveling my red mage to sharpen my magic skills for a future DRK job. I may sub red to gain a few spells or I may sub WAR. The thing is, though, until I get my advance job, the point of those jobs being better is moot. I will no doubt offer more as a DRK than a RDM/WAR, but for right now I enjoy playing this combo. I have cures for soloing and can play a number of roles in a PT. Let us see some of you get in a PT that already has 3 mages.

I apologize if you thought I was putting the individual above the group. I was not. I was saying that players should be considered in terms of skill not locality. If you get two players of similar level and job, but from different nations, you have no guarantee that one must be better.

And also, is you read my first post again, you will see that I take the needs of my PT over anything. I have voked and died to save a friend. I have ran headlong into horrible situations, rather than let someone else stand there alone. The insinuation that someone cannot be of value to a PT without being cookie cutter is untrue. It simply takes more skill.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Taodyn
players should be considered in terms of skill not locality.

Agreed. Unfortunately it's not that simple. How is a party leader supposed to know how skilled a prospective party member is? He can't. Therefore he will base his decision on quantitative (rank, level, subjob, etc) measures. All other things being equal, an rdm/blm will get first pick over an rdm/war.

Yes, there are skilled ENs and sucky JPs. However there's no denying that when choosing a random JP player, you are more likely to get a skilled player than choosing a random EN player. Factor in the language barrier and it's understandable why JPs are hesitant to party with NAs.

Of course, there are also the in-betweens: would you choose a rank 1 50rdm/10blm or a rank 5 50rdm/25bst?

Originally posted by Taodyn
If a JP PT gets a RDM/WAR, then that was what they were looking for.

.
Or perhaps there was no other choice. High-demand jobs like whm, brd, rdm can, in a sense, afford to 'slack' with their subjobs somewhat and still get regular invites. I'm assuming your level info is up to date; below 20 sure your rdm/war can provoke and tank like a pro. At level 50, mobs that hit pld's for 40's will hit you for over 100.

Originally posted by Taodyn
A good player can make a RDM/WAR work.

True and false. You can be the best player in the world, with the best rdm/war in the world, and it might be good, but for a level-up party scenario /blm and /whm are better. Like it or not, /war's abilities/boosts are of negligable benefit to a party.

Originally posted by Taodyn
Your opinion (and it is just that, an opinion, not a fact) that only certain combos can work, is a true sign of inexperience.

False. Nobody is denying that rdm/war could work. Or whm/pld. Or pld/drk, or similar 'non-cookie cutter' job combinations. Rdm/(mage subjob) is not the only workable combo. However in a level-up party it is the most effective (if you have any reasoning to the contrary, I'd love to hear it).

Originally posted by Taodyn
If I am playing a character and job combo I enjoy and am still able to stand toe to toe with others at my level then I am both effective and efficient.

True. But you would not be as effective or as efficient as a 'standard' job combination that is best suited for the particular job at hand.

Your problem is that you haven't taken rdm high enough to realize that the path of the rdm starts close to melee but ends at the backline with the mages. If you never plan on taking rdm past 30 then by all means stick with war.

[Akari]

Why are we arguing over subs and equipment for rdm?

Red jobs like rdm and war DONT rely on their sj like the other jobs they can be played with whatever sub. Are some better then others? Yes, but you dont have to be BEST just have to be more skillfull to make up for the lack of mp etc. (there are exceptions ie galka rdm really need mage sj to make up for lack of mp) RDM isnt a cookie cutter job there are many ways to play it many different ways to handle everything my job always changes depending on what other mages are in pt. (Now if we were talking about a class that has a far more specific roll in a pt this entire post would make more sense.)

Im tired of the whole bash NA's thing there are enough that have played to the point where you can just say he is rank 3 he sucks he is rank 7 must know what he is doing (This isnt always true but hey its upsets less people and tends to be more accurate, someone who is to lazy to go do rank missions is proably to lazy to go hunt money for weapons or learn how to play.)

And as for the whole "cookie cutter" thing its very much the norm to invite mages but yet its ok to follow this. Why is this ok? Because you cant leech exp if you dont have someone in the pt thats willing to do their job right. Point? You break "molds" that bother you and accept the "molds" that fit your needs.

Sorry for the rant at the end. I just pted with someone having fun. It wasn't fun

[Shiia]

I won't bash the NAs. No many of my friends are NA people. I know many who can play their characters well. There are also some arrogant, ignorant people. This can go to both JP and NA, but I found more ignorant NA players than JP players. Like laughing someone's corpse just because you don't like someone at lvl 50s.

I am japanese myself, I do have some Japanese mentality. But living over 20 years in Europe my thinking is a bit different. The more lvl you gain, it becomes clearer what your main job is good at, but at the same time you will also lose efficiency in other part. Hence for Rdm your ability to melee will decrease. Think about it. Try sitting and combining the Ability Rdm has and the support job has. Rdm has Fast cast, Offensive/Defensive magic boost, convert which all leads to magic casting. Drk main has offensive up, last resort, soul eater, pure melee stuff. Drk subbing rdm will increase SOME of the magical skills which they didn't have. But subbing say war, thf, sam will enhance the ability they already have. Same goes to Rdm, subbing blm will enhance your magical skills you already have such as conserve MP, elemental seal, added spells like elemental debuffs, drain and aspir.

I asked a couple of my friends about why they not inviting some NA players? The answer usually is because, they don't do their job properly. Although they know there are skilled NA players but they can't judge by looking at the character if the player is good or not, so they seek JP people first, leaving NA players last. Countless times when I got PT tell I was asked If I was JP. Sometimes I was a bit offended... should I have told no I bet they would look for another.

TO close my post, I have written why I think people seeks perfect parties, or lets say job which has perfect combination.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...4&pagenumber=3

[Silverquick]

Red jobs like rdm and war DONT rely on their sj like the other jobs they can be played with whatever sub. Are some better then others? Yes, but you dont have to be BEST just have to be more skillfull to make up for the lack of mp etc. (there are exceptions ie galka rdm really need mage sj to make up for lack of mp) RDM isnt a cookie cutter job there are many ways to play it many different ways to handle everything my job always changes depending on what other mages are in pt

There are not "Many ways to play a Red Mage effectively"... And your sub really does matter...

Your sub is something used to make your Main job more effective at what it does best. For Red Mage that is Enfeebling and Refreshing plus Back up healing and Nuking. Do you want to know your Job post 40th and what you will be doing in 99.9% of the groups you get into?

If you really want to see what you become and what life is going to be like for you Post 40th. You can actually test this yourself as long as you are higher level than 20th.

Using the spell ... Regen... in place of Refresh...

The casting time is comparable and the cost for casting is low (15 mana).

The next time you are out with your group, as soon as the pull comes in, cast Regen on yourself... then hit Auto Attack...

Then cast your Paralyze and Slow...

Then cast Regen again on another party member...

Then Cast two more Enfeebles like Blind and Gravity

Then cast Regen again on another party member (doesn't matter which).

Then cast the remainder of your enfeebles.

Watch carefully for any of your enfeebles to wear off and also for the Regen effect to wear off on each member.

Cast Regen again on the member who's Regen dropped probably yours...

Magic Burst as needed...

Recast your Paralyze....

Now... see how much actual meleeing you did.

You will generally be only casting 3 refreshes at 41st, but can be upwards of 5.

This will give you a very close (low magic point cost) simulation of what your life will be like Post 40th.


Now... given that a warrior sub will have less mana... and since his melee is just a swing or two between casts... You did nothing for yourself with a /melee sub but make yourself worse at the real job you will be doing.

Parties invite you to be a Refresher and an Enfeebler... you fail at that, you get no invites... because all else is just secondary.

[Akari]

Ok so i havent updated my info in a while....

RDM's Job main job that they are best at is MP management, and keeping the pt moving. Best debuffer in game but the other mages are good at it too. Its not like BLM being the best nuker in game stops you from MBing. No one ive ever pted with has every been overly happy to have me because i can cast debuffs. Most pts will be happy with dia para and slow unless they have a very specific need or idea for that enemy. So please stop talking about RDM being a debuffer.

1) Why the heck are you the only one debuffing in your pts?
Ive never been the only debuffer because im RDM i might be expected to do the most important ones but if a GOOD PT leader wants full debuffs they need to be split among the backline. It really doesnt matter if the WHM casts para even though your A grade ive never seen RDM wearing a full set of MND equipment. Its usually +INT to help with attack magic because thats a far greater investment into mp to get a 16 damage return from a resist. End result im casting 3 maybe 4 debuffs a fight.

2) Why are you casting ALL your debuffs?
If i cant get any attacks in why am i debuffing the enemy still? The fight is almost over your just wasting mp.

3) Why are you casting refresh IN BATTLE during short fights?
If the fight is short you should be casting Refresh on the mages during the down time not when you could be casting something usefull.

As far as that extra 50 mana... i dont need it because Im not wasting MP. Would that extra MP help yeah it would i could waste some mp here and there for my own amusement. If what you say is true though the only reasonable RDM is taru because they have more mp. I still have way more mp then ELF RDM who if they are smart can easily replace me even though they have less mp. So yeah no one is ever gona invite a RDM to be an attacker after 30 and your job is to be a mage as ive stated above, but you can sub what you want because your job doesnt depend on BLM or WHM to do anything. Is WAR sub best? not really but a good player could join the pt with WAR sub and do just as well as you. Every job has an A grade subjob but many have other acceptable SJ you dont need to use the best just something that works. Of course as i pointed out earlier this isnt really the job for this topic as RDM is extreamly flexable and forgiving in the SJ area. Also as Im told as you aproach 75 A grade SJ's are more important but they alway add content for the higher lvls awhile after raising the cap so by the time we get there it may or may not be an issue.

[Deodorant]

Do you even have refresh yet :confused: In an average mid-50's party, assuming 4 people need refresh, you will be pretty much cycling through refreshes once every monster. Refresh during downtime? In any semi decent party you can refresh only 1 or 2 people before the next monster arrives and needs debuffing, etc.

I am reluctant to jump to conclusions but your post reeks of low-levelness.

On second thought, I apologize, I've probably misunderstood you:

And as for the whole "cookie cutter" thing its very much the norm to invite mages but yet its ok to follow this. Why is this ok? Because you cant leech exp if you dont have someone in the pt thats willing to do their job right. Point? You break "molds" that bother you and accept the "molds" that fit your needs.

I have read this over and over and I have no idea wtf it is you're trying to say. Therefore, I leave you with this as a token of my apology:

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Akari
Ok so i havent updated my info in a while....

RDM's Job main job that they are best at is MP management, and keeping the pt moving. Best debuffer in game but the other mages are good at it too. Its not like BLM being the best nuker in game stops you from MBing. No one ive ever pted with has every been overly happy to have me because i can cast debuffs. Most pts will be happy with dia para and slow unless they have a very specific need or idea for that enemy. So please stop talking about RDM being a debuffer.

1) Why the heck are you the only one debuffing in your pts?
Ive never been the only debuffer because im RDM i might be expected to do the most important ones but if a GOOD PT leader wants full debuffs they need to be split among the backline. It really doesnt matter if the WHM casts para even though your A grade ive never seen RDM wearing a full set of MND equipment. Its usually +INT to help with attack magic because thats a far greater investment into mp to get a 16 damage return from a resist. End result im casting 3 maybe 4 debuffs a fight.

2) Why are you casting ALL your debuffs?
If i cant get any attacks in why am i debuffing the enemy still? The fight is almost over your just wasting mp.

3) Why are you casting refresh IN BATTLE during short fights?
If the fight is short you should be casting Refresh on the mages during the down time not when you could be casting something usefull.

As far as that extra 50 mana... i dont need it because Im not wasting MP. Would that extra MP help yeah it would i could waste some mp here and there for my own amusement. If what you say is true though the only reasonable RDM is taru because they have more mp. I still have way more mp then ELF RDM who if they are smart can easily replace me even though they have less mp. So yeah no one is ever gona invite a RDM to be an attacker after 30 and your job is to be a mage as ive stated above, but you can sub what you want because your job doesnt depend on BLM or WHM to do anything. Is WAR sub best? not really but a good player could join the pt with WAR sub and do just as well as you. Every job has an A grade subjob but many have other acceptable SJ you dont need to use the best just something that works. Of course as i pointed out earlier this isnt really the job for this topic as RDM is extreamly flexable and forgiving in the SJ area. Also as Im told as you aproach 75 A grade SJ's are more important but they alway add content for the higher lvls awhile after raising the cap so by the time we get there it may or may not be an issue.

WHMs and BLMs enfeebles never stick post 60, that's why we need RDMs for enfeebles. I have to throw 3 Paralyze on a f***ing cockatrice before it sticks, as a WHM. Post 60, skill C = crap, skill B = bad, only those with skills A can do that particular job well. (Except for bards, no one knows why all their singing skills are C). In most party setup, you have to refresh a minimum of 4 people, yourself, WHM BLM or SMN BLM and PLD, and Refresh should be on at all times for all who need MP except for DRKs to have maximum effeciency so you won't end up wasting time resting. Maybe with a 7k or 8k xp to next level, non stop chaining doesn't matgter, but when you need 20k 30k xp to level, you won't wanna spend weeks just to level up once. I rather wait an hour for a RDM to pop instead of grabbing what's available and get a crappy 2k xp an hour. If I ever have to wait more than 10 seconds for a Refresh for a few times, that RDM will go into blist, why would anyone want a RDM who doesn't keep Refresh on all the time?

As for sub jobs, they are meant to help you, what do you get from subbing WAR? Berserk? Voke? Defender? Do you actually need them? Conserve MP and Elemental Seal are so much better for a mage, Seal + Aspir = Decent MP returns, Divine Seal is Altana's gift after Convert, Auto-Refresh.. Do I need to explain on this? The 50 MP doesn't matter much, the Traits and Abilities matter a lot.

[Akari]

Deodorant

Ok to put that quote of yours simply and im assuming you've played the game with NA players before.

Its ok for me to be BLM/WAR because i dont want to heal but I wont join your group unless you have a WHM. Im sure you've experianced this from those types of players.

Now as for my lvl im lvl 52 RDM/BLM and im currently lvling up WHM because of the rare times when im called upon to be main healer. Doesnt happen very often at this lvl but casting protect on everyone kills my mp plus the lack of na and group bar spells.

A question for you though. Have you ever played RDM? Because having played with a class doesnt make you an expert on how to play it

Anyways even a crazy puller waits for the mages to sit a little and doesnt always have a monster standing next to the group wait for him to get exp quicker. Almost always enough time to do 2 refreshes.

Here is why. You only need to get off the 2

PLD, DRK, BRD arent in my refresh cycle.

PLD - You refresh when they are actually using mp. They dont suck up mp like a mage, refresh is usually giving them more MP then they are going to use. I usually refresh the PLD when he is 100-50 MP down depending on their race and their rate of casting.

BRD- BRDS are very busy and if they are doing their job the BEST way possible they dont have time to be casting heals during battle. Why refresh them? (also if you have brd in your pt his mp song is usually sufficent for the amount of casting he does). Now some BRDS play very simply and may have time to help with in battle healing. Again they arent spaming out spells like the mages and they have a MP regen song on them, so refresh them if they are running out for some reason. (attacker mage is very bad with BRD anyway to much timing dodging brd songs and getting back for the brd to refresh yours. It can be done but what a headache)

DRK- Well they are such great casters and all but they almost never use more mp then refresh gives them so they get it when im not busy.

Yourself- Start of fight or end of fight when ever your not busy. RDM has the least MP problems of all class so you can wait.

So assuming 4 people need refresh still only needs to be cast 2 times in a short fight. If its a long fight not like i have to restart the cycle right away and i dont have to hit everyone just because im restarting the cycle. In any case like i said plenty of time to get a few hits in, if your good.

Also you seem so intent on flaming me a your not reading closely. Im not saying WAR is BEST or even suggesting that someone should do it. Im saying they can do it and not hurt the pt. Unlike some other jobs RDM has great flexablity with its sj. Also using BLM or WHM sub doesnt make you good or best. Sub par players that dont understand mp management will always be sub par till they learn. This is why I love galka mages they always know how to squeak out every last bit of mp they have. Unlike some taru mages who arent as good because they just waste 100-150 of their mp because they have so much.

[Bamce Sylph]

seems i've stirred up a bit of trouble. and after leveling my whitemage a little more in qufim this past week, (that place needs warning lable and a child proof cap) i've come to see that i'm mostly right, but not just about rdm's. at least 3 people tha cycled through my group (i wasn't leader otherwise they never would have made it in) didn't have the qufim map, unacceptable. one guy we invited was a lvl 20 war /FOUR whitemage, that is such a waste of my time. he had a total of 17 mp's as he was invited into my group. had i been leader i would have passed him over with the other lazy underleveled trash. we had a ninja22/FIVE monk. in the entire time he stayed in the group i never saw him boost, not once! 15 second reuse people, don't be stupid. at least he had blink. i had a theif, once again sublvl five warrior.

hmmm that sounded a bit assholey and elitist, but i stand by my opinon, and now i'm gonna try and cool off the flames that are sure to be headed my way.

people will defend underleveld subs as not having much time to play so they just wanna group and exp. however your lazyness shouldn't bring down everyone else's time. what advantage did said warrior (he really annoyed the hell out of me so i'm gonna continue to use him as an example) get out of 17 mp's 2 cure 1's for maybe 30 hps total? waste of time.

vendored maps are most (i've seen) 3k. 3k is not alot of money and there is no excuse for not having them besides being a slacker. on my server that is 2 stacks of fire crystals (1.5kish a peice) 2.5 of wind (1.2ish) 6 of water (5-6ish) not to mention all the drops u have come across along the way, cp gear, quest rewards, etc etc etc.

level your subs, leveling to 10 takes about a day of playtime. so there is really no excuse, unless your just trying toblow through the first 30 levels to get the adv jobs and even then, (yes i'v heard that excuse more than once before that they weren't gonna level anything else b/c htey were gonna be a dkn/war or pal/war etc)

now that i've gotten my rant about lazy na players in the lower levels out of mysystem. my origanal post was about lvl 40ish chars, idont care about your lvl 20 uber rdm/melee or melee/rdm (btw its my opinion subbing redmage before lvl 32 (so u can sub in uber enspells for they're craptastic damage) should be meet with a quick slap upside the head.

/rant off

at lvl 40-41 redmages come into they're prime as casters, they're melee drops off, they get convert, refresh, some II spells etc. however is till see many meleeing away w/o a care in the world and every mp they waste by enspelling, or self buffing (melee wise, yeah i know about the haste-> cast time thing anyone know if bard haste works the same/similar war?) but every mp that rdm uses to enspell is more he will have to /heal for, thus increasing downtime, one of hte opposite jobs of a redmage. now i'm not one to tell someone else how to do they're job, most people are too involved with how they're playing correctly to listen to any advise. and just get all pissy, (gee wonder where i've seen that before.....)

i was not asking for personal opinions about your style of play, if you were an na player or if u were jap, stupidiy and ignorance crosses many boundries. this sterotype of "crappY" na players will exist for quite some time and will be even worse after the ps2 na release. i'm sure messageboards across the net will be spammed once again w/ job/useless sub combo posts once again as they begin to think rdm/ninja is awsome (NO its not) if your gonna swear by dual weild/enspell at least be ninja/rdm so that ur melee skills are accually on par w/ mobs defense, and please have a appropriately leveled war sub and be prepared to be asked to blink tank. i live about 20 min from philadelphia. i live in north america i play ffxi, however i spent 4 years playing eq, i understand the cycle of farming/progress/farming/progress alot better than someone who comes into an exp group offering a underleveld /highly inapproiate sub the dragoon/monk comes to mind. my advise to other na players out there, do missions get your rankup, makes u look like less of an idiot, at least to me and i know i'm not the only one who looks at those kind of things. use the comment system, use the auto translator. don't have /p "flavortext" for every spell u do, thats extra spam and in the limited chatbox they give you it is possible to miss alot. in my opinion the only spells that i'd like to see /ped are cure's sleep's and debuffs, a good selection of the lvl 40+ class of players knows what each job is doing, and/or suppose to do, i don't need to see some dragoon spaming "

/p using JUMP on <t> OTHERRANDOMCAPSLOCKEDTEXTAFTER

every 90 seconds. and then them pounding the hotkey at 87, 88, 89, and finally at 90 seconds to try and get it as soon as it refreshes.


okay....so maybe i didn't cool down nearly as much as i thought i was going to. but man stupid people upset me.

::insert flame here::

[Fogia]

Originally posted by Bamce Sylph
use the auto translator

I don't know if there is an explanation, but seriously JP players do no make any effort to use the translator when they can't speak english.
I have lost the count on how many mixed party I have joined and while the NA players are desesperatly trying to tell the JP to make X debuff or be the pulled and so on, the JP wouldn't even answer to them.
That even goes as far as leveling. While they will gadly spam the chat in a JP party with "ome~" and so on, when it's in a mixed party the most they will do most of the time is a crappy /clap, not even trying to use the <Congratulations> translation.

Yesterday I grouped with a JP RDM. As I was leveling my WHM sub I was tring to tell him to do debuffs and tell me in case he was hit by poison or sleep so I can cure him.
Man, he completly ignored any single tell. I just ended doing most of the white spells debuffs while he was just spamming cure, throwing a stupid poison at the beginning of the fight.

Without sarcasm, I can easily say that so far most of the auto-translation I have seen from JP players was in their search comment and was from <English> <I don't understand> up to (yeah I have found this some times) <English> <No Thanks.> <Good Bye.>


In all honesty, I would say that for once, the JP have a lot of to learn from NA in this field.

[TMPikachu]

That's wierd. All of the JP's I've partied with always use an auto-translate skillchain explination, and I usually tell them what enfeeblements I'll use.

It's the luck of the draw, don't stereotype their race due to a few bad eggs.

It's the same reason that NA's sucking is 'common knowledge' to the Japanese, a few rememberable instances of bad behavior painting the entire community.

[Tukka]

Yep, for most people, it's the really horrible incidents, people, ect. that stick out in their minds. It's harder to remember the person who quietly does their job in the group well. For instance, due to the way I have my filters set up, if a mage is perfectly timing their spells so they are pulling off mid-renkei MB, or doing two MBs at the end of a skillchain instead of just one, I might not even notice. However, I will certainly notice the mage who isn't controlling their aggro and is wasting healer mana or cramping the melees' style by making them chase around the mob more than necessary.

I try to notice and remember the good groupmates, but the first priority is doing my own job as well as possible before I start worrying about how other people are behaving.