na redmages

[Apple Pie]

PLD - You refresh when they are actually using mp. They dont suck up mp like a mage, refresh is usually giving them more MP then they are going to use. I usually refresh the PLD when he is 100-50 MP down depending on their race and their rate of casting.

Hmm... Paladins in fast-chaining PT never have their MP that full. We always include them in our refresh cycle. Even though we do it perfect, they are often running out of it and have to rest after each battle.

Imagine how long it takes the spell to recover 46MP (Cure3) and 88MP (Cure4). Then, how long does it usually take us to kill each mob? Do you know what I mean?

If you don't refresh them regularly, it results in the fact that they don't feel like spending their MP.

Also using BLM or WHM sub doesnt make you good or best. Sub par players that dont understand mp management will always be sub par till they learn.

You're treating two elements as one thing.

If they are both experienced, getting a right sub-job (often BLM or WHM) always makes them good or best. Then, if they have the same sub-job, their experience, knowledge and their playing skill always make them good or best.

Unlike some other jobs RDM has great flexablity with its sj.

Well, it sounds like an excuse from those who choose strange sub-jobs or those who don't level their sub-jobs. We're not flexible as for what we do in a PT. What we do is always the same.

However, the reason we can manage to do our job without ideal sub-jobs is because our skills and spells themselves are strong enough to hide negative elements of stupid sub-jobs. I'm sure they will even invite RDM/BST if he/she has Dispel and Refresh.

Well, I'd like to see what happens if our population becomes as high as other melee jobs' do and we start to have problems being invited. I think anyone start to level either BLM or WHM.

[Pilsbane]

Apple brings up a good point about competition for a spot in a party. I've been sent a tell asking me if I wanted to party, even when I wasn't seeking party. I looked at who was online and there were 2 redmages in my level range looking for party--and the party asked me--the one not seeking!

One of the redmages was something like 54 RDM/27NIN, the other was 55 RDM/18BLM. Neither used search comments to explain their non-standard and/or under-leveled subjob. I had comments with my to next level and crystals. My subjob was appropriate and fully leveled. I got the group invitation and they didn't.

So, play what you want. Really. It doesn't hurt the other redmages any. It actually helps us.

[Akari]

I use normal SJ BLM and im getting WHM up incase my pt needs me to have it. NO you dont do the samething in EVERY pt. Ive been stuck as main healer in 3 RDM pt because no WHM would log on and we waited almost 3 hours trying to get one. So we had to make do or just not hunt.

If you do what i said and the PLD NEVER has mp you keep refreshing him as he needs it. However, refreshing the PLD who has full mp isnt good. Not all PLD are great and not every pt goes out there and gets 5 chains for 300 exp sometimes if you play your best your pt still sucks. Also most PLD just do their job regardless of how well you do theirs. Then there is this wonderfull function in FFXI where you can just tell the PLD why and not to worry about their mp you'll handle it. To activate this feature you just start typing it works fairly well.

As far as getting pts those werid subjobs never have any trouble. Try not being Anon while gil farming see how many invites you get(assuming your sub thf for that) I turn down pt invites no matter what wacky sub im using wandering around, with no seach comment. I even get invites when i switch to blm main/war for pts when im dezoning. So no mage is ever hurting for lvl up pts.

2 Elements as one thing? Try not rewording what I said and telling me im wrong. While your at it try reading my entire post before arguing with me.

The traits of RDMS subs arent needed. Are they nice yes or they wouldnt be considerd best, but this isnt what we are talking about are we?

However, your right Id invite a RDM/WHM over RDM/WAR any day. This has nothing to do with any of my previous post im not saying that WHM or BLM isnt best. Im saying that other subs arent crippling because of RDM flexibilty. Also if anyone else wants to respond to why other sj cripple pts please do. STOP telling me WHM and BLM is BEST. I know this and agree with you.

[Bamce Sylph]

unforutnallly akari not everyone is as open minded and will blindly insist that redmages can, and should be a melee class, (btw i recommend never visiting allakazhams site, i get a headache just by reading the topics). it has been stated time and time again that mid-late game redmages spend to much time doing mage things to be anything remotly resembling meleeing. and if u are, your neglecting something else. our melee starts to suck, our spells start to get good at 40, accept that your dreams of being some swording weilding uber spellcaster will never happen unless its as a darknight or a paladin. several u may return with i'll do what i want and you'll like it, b ut i havn't seen any of those people post since my last posting in this particular thread, granted that wasn't may posts ago but for some people who so adhere to this illusion of redmages being able to passably melee seem to have disappeared. you will come around to the cookie cutter of what is expected of you or u will be sitting in jeuno fishing. take your pick

[Weezingpipes]

I found this to be an interesting read because it wasn't the standard "NA players suck" type thing. Anyway, after playing a few months now I see things differently. For one thing, JP really aren't as great as thought to be. Now sure on the whole the JP players who have been playing a long time, high rank, etc etc know their shit and are an asset to a group. For example, I was leveling my WAR sub recently, saw a JP rank 9 NIN lfp my subs level so I asked him to join (was a Taru). Generally I'm dubious to inviting Taru melee, but honestly he was chock full of great +1 or +2 equipment and a few good NM drops even without Utsusemi was still a better tank than I was. But anyway more to the point, players like that take a long time to develop, and eventually there will be NA players who are more familiar with job roles, buy better quality equipment, always have food/drink/whatever and so on. On the other hand, I have of course grouped with some utterly terrible JP players - the worst Paladin I ever grouped with was Japanese. Always had a problem holding agro, was still using AF sword at 55, Rank 2 (yes, this does matter but for relevant reasons). Hell when the group finished we didn't have a BLM so we Teleport Mea, and he doesn't have the damn crystal. While it is entirely possible he will one day end up a good Paladin, I won't be waiting around to find out.

Anyway I agree with what people are saying about sub job choices and what not. Personally I would rather not group than group with people with less effective sub jobs because it will hurt the group in the long term. Elvaan RDM/BLM-WHM = ok. Elvaan RDM/WAR = group waiting for their RDM's convert to cycle by chain 1 and otherwise he's just going to be perpetually barely making it keeping up refresh and a few enfeebling spells. While some people might not care in their 30-40, when you are going for 30k+ per level, that just amounts to time wasted, and in my case and most other melee, gil wasted. Most melee by 60's have learned to buy stat foods because it does help exp flow - shitty parties = wasted food = wasted gils. I've been using kabobs since 20's, add that up over 40 levels. At least to me thats why I care about who is in my party and how effective/ineffective they are.

Hmm I think I'm sort of rambling so I will say this : not all NA suck. In fact I think it might be the general belief that NA = shit player is why many of them try very hard to be assets to parties they join.

[Apple Pie]

I'm always telling our people it is not nationality that determines whether they are good players or not.

Go to Valkurm and invite some JP players with rank 1-2. I don't think they do as great as experienced NA players do nor do they know better about their roles.

Well, it is true that I see almost no post like "RDM/NIN, viable combo?" in JP forums but it is because we already have two years of experience. There are a lot of job-specific websites listing what to do and what not to do. We have a lot of books for beginners, too. I've only played this game for six months but I had a lot of chance to study RDM roles in advance.

However, most NA players have to enter the new world without them. They have to learn everything by themselves.

Anyway, once they visit various places, meet various mobs, and know a lot of skillchain/MB, I'm sure they will learn how to and they will do it perfect afterwards. I haven't seen NA red mages around my LV yet but I'm sure they will do as good as we do or even do better than us.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Akari
However, your right Id invite a RDM/WHM over RDM/WAR any day. This has nothing to do with any of my previous post im not saying that WHM or BLM isnt best. Im saying that other subs arent crippling because of RDM flexibilty. Also if anyone else wants to respond to why other sj cripple pts please do. STOP telling me WHM and BLM is BEST. I know this and agree with you.

In the strictest sense, pld/whm isn't crippling either ... a good player could possibly pull this off with generous use of flash and cures. But would you invite him to your party?

You say that rdm is flexible ... but this really isn't the case. In a lvlup party rdm is a support job. Doing any non-mage sub gives absolutely no benefit, you might as well be rdm with no subjob. And what if everyone else thinks the same way? Example: consider the following party:

pld/whm
war/blm
thf/rdm
blm/war
whm/nin
rdm/thf

Will the party be crippled? Not really. Will it be effective? No ... because none of the party members have an effective subjob.

[Akari]

Originally posted by Deodorant

In the strictest sense, pld/whm isn't crippling either ... a good player could possibly pull this off with generous use of flash and cures. But would you invite him to your party?

You say that rdm is flexible ... but this really isn't the case. In a lvlup party rdm is a support job. Doing any non-mage sub gives absolutely no benefit, you might as well be rdm with no subjob. And what if everyone else thinks the same way? Example: consider the following party:

pld/whm
war/blm
thf/rdm
blm/war
whm/nin
rdm/thf

Will the party be crippled? Not really. Will it be effective? No ... because none of the party members have an effective subjob.

PLD/WHM is crippling you need taunt a GOOD player could NOT pull this off. Just because the PLD doesnt have that +40 hate everyone needs to hold back alot more. BLM/WAR is also crippling because BLM needs healing its not built into their class so WHM sub is required. WHM max MP directly effects the WHM's performance since they are almost always the 1st ones to run out of mp (skill cant make up for all the mp SMN gives its just to big enough bonus especially at higher lvls)

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Deodorant

In the strictest sense, pld/whm isn't crippling either ... a good player could possibly pull this off with generous use of flash and cures. But would you invite him to your party?

You say that rdm is flexible ... but this really isn't the case. In a lvlup party rdm is a support job. Doing any non-mage sub gives absolutely no benefit, you might as well be rdm with no subjob. And what if everyone else thinks the same way? Example: consider the following party:

pld/whm
war/blm
thf/rdm
blm/war
whm/nin
rdm/thf

Will the party be crippled? Not really. Will it be effective? No ... because none of the party members have an effective subjob.

WHM/NIN will work if you have Kraken Club and Hexa. XD

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Akari
PLD/WHM is crippling you need taunt a GOOD player could NOT pull this off. Just because the PLD doesnt have that +40 hate everyone needs to hold back alot more. BLM/WAR is also crippling because BLM needs healing its not built into their class so WHM sub is required. WHM max MP directly effects the WHM's performance since they are almost always the 1st ones to run out of mp (skill cant make up for all the mp SMN gives its just to big enough bonus especially at higher lvls)

Flawed logic. Blm doesn't need healing. Whm doesn't need extra mp from subjob. Rdm doesn't need a mage sub. Playing a "crappy" sub doesn't cripple them, but having a "proper" sub makes them more effective at what they do.

And pld/whm isn't exactly crippled either. The only time I've partied with one (taru pld/whm), the attackers were drg and rng (penta -> sidewinder). The pld surprisingly did a damn good job at keeping hate, considering no provoke and 1k damage sidewinders from the ranger. Crippled? Not really, but there's no denying that the standard /war sub would (probably) be better.

My point is you can't really say that 'oh rdm can have any subjob he wants, it doesn't really matter (which is what I'm gathering from your arguments),' especially when you expect pld's whm's and blm's to stick to their most-effective subjob and nothing else.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Deodorant

Flawed logic. Blm doesn't need healing. Whm doesn't need extra mp from subjob. Rdm doesn't need a mage sub. Playing a "crappy" sub doesn't cripple them, but having a "proper" sub makes them more effective at what they do.

And pld/whm isn't exactly crippled either. The only time I've partied with one (taru pld/whm), the attackers were drg and rng (penta -> sidewinder). The pld surprisingly did a damn good job at keeping hate, considering no provoke and 1k damage sidewinders from the ranger. Crippled? Not really, but there's no denying that the standard /war sub would (probably) be better.

My point is you can't really say that 'oh rdm can have any subjob he wants, it doesn't really matter (which is what I'm gathering from your arguments),' especially when you expect pld's whm's and blm's to stick to their most-effective subjob and nothing else.

Seriously, there's no point arguing with him cause he'll still think that RDMs can get away with any crappy sub jobs he wants, since RDMs are high in the demand list, he'll realise that he needs a decent sub when he finished a few genkai. Nothins is worse than dealing with stubborn people, just watch them fall and let them learn themself.

[Discordian]

pld/whm in my opinion is a rating 1.5 out of a scale of 0 to 10. The bonuses that a paladin gets from pld/war are just too too good to pass up.

Provoke (why cast cure4 when provoke does it for free?)
Extra vitality (more defense)
double attack (honestly you need this for spirits within)
defender (more defense)
Higher HP (nuff said)

I don't see why people want to try the pld/whm, I guess its roleplaying or something but having someone that is MP exauhsted by the end of the first or second fight doesn't help.

[Elusivellama]

I have seen a level 24 whm in qufim, with no subjob. Now, if that isn't pure laziness or extreme bad luck...

Anyway, you ever heard the saying that trying to defend everything results in defending nothing? What I mean is, trying to make an uber war mage out of a RDM is a pipe dream. Subbing WAR with RDM is not exactly a horrible thing to do....but if you're looking for party alongside another RDM/WHM or RDM/BLM, a smart party leader will invite the mage-subbed RDM first. I would too, as I consider RDM/WAR to be comparatively gimped for the role I want them to fit into, which is enfeeble/cure.

Maybe it is cookie cutter to go RDM/WHM or RDM/BLM, but facts are facts...mage sub gives more mp, more magic-friendly abilities/stats than *any* warrior sub. Argue all you want that cookie-cutter jobs are boring and unoriginal.

Just remember this...there was once a company who tried to make an aerocar. You know, a car attached to an airplane body. It could drive down the street, and fly whenever it wanted to. It sounded like the perfect combination of land/air. On its first test flight, it ran out of fuel and crashed. Then it was back to the 'cookie-cutter' combination of car and good ol' mother Earth. Unoriginal, yes, but it works.

[Quezi]

~Long rant~ Full of typos due to my exited frenzy and numerous mispellings due to my stupidity=P


I, as a NA, and someone who has been playing MMORPGS for over 5 years, for the most part with other NA players (naturaly), will say that;

"I assume most NA players to be idiots."

Now, this is not to say that i do not considerd most non NA players idiots aswell, i wouldnt know as i have yet to play with a large enough sample of non NA players.

It doesnt matter what game, its always the same way. At high levels, end game levels, hell THE highest level, more often than not the people i encounter have no idea how the game acualy works, they simply know how to slowly leech themselves up useing the same poorly exicuted formulas, usualy the easyest and least complicated, regardless of the fact that just spending a tad bit of effort into realiseing what the hell is going on would result in dubble the exp.

I once ran into someone who ONLY used aoe heals becaus it was 'easyer'. Suffice to say we had terrible downtime waiting for them to recover so they could once again spam their totaly useless power hogging spells which where only SLIGHTLY better than normal ones if EVERYONE was getting hurt at the same time so they can heal the tank who would have regend himself to full alot faster in the first place. I, an experianced healer attempted to offer advice to this person who was not only takeing up exp but acualy causeing us to kill slower than if we didint have them at all and noone in their place. The stupid tank would not pull untill they where at full even tho i was also there, as a healer, who could have healed him by myself forever nonstopped. I try to point these things out, i get yelled at. The next pull the healer decides to attack some random mob by us, causes a big train, we all die... i leave with less EXP than when i came.

I have on countless occasions ran into people who dont know WHAT THEIR JOB IS! Forget about doing it wrong, they dont do it at all! Healers who think they are there to melee? Many people dont acualy understand the game. Tanks who insist that the gimpy backup healer is just fine to keep him alive when the main healer goes linkdead and, as i am argueing against this point, pulls and gets us all killed?

I would say that the average rait of me finding a party consisting of people who are able to generate exp faster than me standing around doing nothing, is about 1 in 5, and i do not exagerate this. This is, naturaly, leaveing out regular parties, or me duo/trioing with people i know.

MMORPGS are not that hard. All it takes is observation to figure out what you need to do. Look at the results of your actions, look at the results of others actions, try somethind differant and observe how it differd from other things you can do. What is most effective should instantly become clear to you. Its PERFECTLY FINE AND OK to not know some obscure thing wich only applies to some rare situation, it is not ok to NOT LISTEN TO PEOPLE who DO know, should you ever find yourself in said situation.

I have been a newbie many differant times, as i have played many differant games. Each one i start not knowing much, but as i said MMORPGs are so SIMPLE that really it should be EASY to figure this stuff out! I knew how to renkei before i ever touched a ffxi box!! Why is this? Well, knowledge is power and all that, and i do alot of reading. I like to know things, even wierd things that i dont need to know, but i just cant understand how some people can get to a high level with out knowing SIMPLE THINGS! Sadley i have encounterd it, and i shal forever it seems.


A newbie is someone who doesnt know what they are doing.
An idiot is someone who thinks they do.

As i said, i am from NA, and in my oppinion most NA players are idiots. This is not to say that most non NA players are not also idiots, as i said i canot tell yet, but i can only hope they are not. Yes i am somewhat elitest if you want to call it that. I dont think im 'better than them', i think they are 'worse than me'. There is a differance, i have no special abilities or powers, i am not inherantly better, i am average, but they are below it.

As far as wierd race/job combos go. As far as race goes i would invite someone who is NOT the best race. Galka mages, taru drks, all of these players are more likley to know what they are doing becaus they are obviously not self centerd idiots who are just trying to get 'uber', and instead are more likley to be team players.

I have found in the past that people who play nonaverage or slightly odd combinations usualy have a higher chance of knowing what they are doing. The reasoning is simple;

1. We will assume that the average idiot and newbie alike frequents the "what is the best blah" threads. Even someone who has no intention of figureing out what the hell to do, will probibly want to be the 'best' at being a moron, so they will most likley seek out the most common things are.

2. Assumeing that everyone knows what the best whatever is, anyone who is not it has clearly put more thought into their charicter than someone who just followed instructions. Thus we should assume they are more capable at thinking than everyone else, hence they should have a higher percentage of non idiots.

There, im done. I cant think of anything else to say. This has all been based off of my experiances the past 5 years playing MMORPGS of numerous type and popularity from big name hits such as EQ and DAOC to little know things such as NexusTK(Baram in english), as a healer/support charicter (cc casters, bard-like things, really anything thats not a straight up damage dealer or tank)

[Tulerin]

Ive played Everquest for 4+ years myself and I agree.

Heh, when it comes down to picking people for groups, I usually see who is online that has played mmorpgs for a decent amount of time before I would pick somone with high rank. 4+ years of mmorpog experience >>> some rank 10 with one year or so of mmorpg experience. It is pretty sad to come up to a high level with high rank and saying that FFXI was their first mmorpg lol.

But hey, what do I know, im an idiotic NA ^.^