Rdm/war

[Apple Pie]

DRK/Something = Dark Knight
RDM/DRK: You can't call this Dark Knight

I'm not sure what you want for RDM/DRK. If you want to solo, it should be a good choice but whatever you choose for your sub-job, it doesn't change the the role of RDM in PT dramatically.

I'm sure RDM/DRK outperforms any RDM/Mage combos as for melee but unfortunately, it never matches up to true DRK.

[TMPikachu]

well, a drk knight can't match a rdm in enfeeblement and enhancement ability. Never said he would compete with any true melee.

I know a non mage sub will not be as efficient, but if someone wants to try out a melee oriented rdm, with a party who would not mind a less focused character, a rdm/drk would probably be better than rdm/war or rdm/nin.

[Shiia]

If a dedicated melee with A rank on their weapon at Later 40s is missing against ITs after throwing Gravity + Frost + dia2, then guess how much a rdm with B rank weapon will be hitting...

[Lyonesse]

Interesting story, I've been partying with a Hume RDM/NIN the last few nights and it's easily the best 36+ experience party I've had yet. He showed EXCELLENT MP management (excellent coming from me, the WHM/WAR, is saying a lot IMO ) and was still meleeing with me (PLD) and our WAR. He wasn't doing great damage but that's attributed to the fact he wasn't using any attack boosting equipment or attack enhancing food. So saying RDM/NIN is useless during the mid 40s is an exaggeration. It's not the most efficient subjob nor is it more all-purpose for casting but it is a very viable option and works especially well coupled with our other two colored mages.

He'd start the battle with his enfeebles (Paralyze, Slow, Gravity), refresh the white mage, enblizzard himself, melee, refresh himself, continue melee, refresh me, I Moonlight to restore us, and we beat mob. This is more or less the routine. He'd occasionally toss a Nuke or a Cure III to assist the WHM and me on healing but he never got to a point where his MP was an issue. He even participated in a few Renkeis with me. This was like 10-12k in 3 maybe 4 hours so I'd say it was quite a success

[Apple Pie]

It's just because he knew what he was supposed to do. Are you saying the reason he showed you great MP management was because he chose /NIN? I'm afraid not.

As long as we hundle our work correctly, subbing /melee classes doesn't bother our roles. However, why almost all of us sub mage classes is simply because their job abilities/traits and extra MP help us play our basic roles better becase we're basically casters.

I don't mean to say RDM/NIN is useless but I'm sure extra 79MP helps me kill them faster. Just one Brizzard II does better than our melee for two minutes.

[Altruist]

A pld/war and an rdm/war are stuck in the desert, agro monsters are around them and they are very tired, so they want to go back to their HP via D4.

PLD/War pulls out his sword, sigh's and falls on it. He goes home says hi to his moogle and goes to sleep.

RDM/War pulls out his sword, sigh's and falls, *misses*

[TMPikachu]

Originally posted by Altruist
A pld/war and an rdm/war are stuck in the desert, agro monsters are around them and they are very tired, so they want to go back to their HP via D4.

PLD/War pulls out his sword, sigh's and falls on it. He goes home says hi to his moogle and goes to sleep.

RDM/War pulls out his sword, sigh's and falls, *misses*

'course the paladin hits, they've got the worst dodging ability of any class

[EFigaro]

All I know is that once I started partying, that in thirty levels of being a Red Mage, I meleed exactly once. The only reason I did anywhere near as much damage as even the Paladin was because of the En-spells.

I'd personally rather have a Rdm/Mage in any group I'm in over a Rdm/melee any day of the week.

But then again I've come to be a rather bad snob about things in my parties.

[Lyonesse]

I didn't say /NIN was the reason for it Apple, I mentioned that it ISN'T useless. 79 MP may help you the way you play but it doesn't necessarily mean it'll help everyone else.

[Weezingpipes]

Ok if it wasn't the reason, then why sub ninja? The reality is when any RDM subs ninja, its because they want to look cool dual wielding swords. Not because its actually effective in any way. At best a RDM/NIN gains a meager stat boost from using a club with stats in their sub slot. The ninjitsu will likely never be used, and they give up a good chunk of MP...to gain a meager stat boost from another weapon they would have got already just by having a WHM or BLM sub job.

Considering the increased delay in attacks with a ninja sub, they don't actually end up dealing better melee damage at all compared to not dual wielding. At best slightly higher dex (since sub job stats don't really add a ton anyway). Here is the stat comparison of a Taru RDM/BLM vs Taru RDM/NIN at level 40 just as an example.

HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHR
483 431 30 37 31 38 50 37 36 < RDM BLM
504 377 32 38 33 39 47 35 35 < RDM NIN

The NIN sub has 21 hp, 2 str, 1 dex, 2 vit, 1 agi over a BLM sub. The BLM sub has 54 mp, 3 int, 2 mnd over the NIN sub. In the long run, which of these stats will be more useful. The INT helps you nuke better, 54 mp = at least 1 cure 3/2 cure 2's, and the MND is...there since I'm not sure MND matters a whole lot at that level due to heal caps. Also because of the difference in HP/MP of a NIN using convert its worse ratio of hp : mp. Ideally RDM want to make the most of their converts ie as close to a 1:1 ratio (which isn't really possible for most race RDM anyway and not until the RDM has some good equipment to offset the base hp/mp difference) to maximize the effectiveness of the ability. Obviously the stat differences will add up higher in levels, but I was just giving an example of the difference at mid level.

So what exactly does having a NIN sub offer to a group? Doesn't look like anything to be honest. Have to consider when people want to gain exp they want to gain as much as possible in a short period of time. Basically that red mage could have had no sub job at all and added as much to his party as he would with a ninja sub. Just 0 point to it. Even if he had items which improved his melee ability, it doesn't change the fact he is using a B ranked weapon for a job with little emphasis on combat statistics, which translates into poor damage across the board and mediocre accuracy anyway. It does sound like the player seemed to know his role in a party which is great, but why would he sub a job which doesn't actually benefit him at all is beyond me.

[TMPikachu]

Why would anyone want a taru taru warrior/mnk/drg/sam?

They've got much lower hp/str/vit than any other race, the only bonus to melee combat is higher agil, and even then at the expense of everything else (and Mithra do it better anyways)
an elvaan rdm has a greater hp pool/str/vit than a taru taru warrior. Heck, an elvaan whm has more hp's/vit/str.


Though the taru taru will still get ATT boost, higher weapons grade and all, he is definitely going to fall behind any other race's warrior, but people still accept them into parties.
and why would anyone want to play as this gimp?
because they look cool, really cool.

I guess it depends on how desperate you are for another member and how focused you are to obtaining the 'perfect' party.

[Navia]

Oh no, not another melee RDM - someone kill it before it breeds -_-.
I had the worst RDM in a pt the other day, she was crying because she kept getting silenced when anticans did jamming wave (ae silence) or wasting my mp because of being in melee range when it did sandstorm, was late as hell on keeping refresh on pt members and so on.
Its a prime example while people loathe the very thought of RDM meleeing at higher levels.

[Weezingpipes]

They've got much lower hp/str/vit than any other race, the only bonus to melee combat is higher agil, and even then at the expense of everything else (and Mithra do it better anyways)

Huh? How is this related to the topic?

[TMPikachu]

Originally posted by Weezingpipes


Huh? How is this related to the topic?

'cause it's those 'little' differences that are made with different subs. someone compared taru taru rdm/war to rdm/blm, the advantage was more MP and INT. Taru taru will just plain out have more MP than an elvaan, but elvaan rdm's are not totally disreguarded of.

I am a rdm that can melee, but I'm not incompetent.
if an enemy can silence with an AOE attack, then I will just not engage in melee, or only do so when it is near death. You are confusing a bad player with a rdm who might occasionally engage enemies in the thick of fighting.
Navia, why do you wear heavy armor? are you not gimping yourself in worrying on defense when your role is to sit back and heal? (I know, it's good for emergencies, just an odd sort of point to make about 'out of character' sorts of things, like whm's with high high def)
I also feel that if I do not pull out my sword, I do not take advantage of high elvaan str, and there would be no purpose of Elvaan/mithra/hume/galka mages because a taru taru has a much larger mp pool. I'm doing this at the relatively lower levels, I know at higher ones I'll draw the sword less often

[Altruist]

The reason why RDM/War does not work:

B rated 1h sword

The reason why Taru War works

A+ Rated 2h axe

str/vit really don't matter when your weapon does half the damage, and hits half the time.