War/mnk > Pal/war High level PLD please respond!

[Lewkowski]

Newbie here but so far from my expeirence I tank better then a paladin of equal level!

Heres what I see the case bieng -

DOING DAMAGE -

No question really Warrior does more damage, the more damage that is dealt the LESS the warrior takes. This means if a warriors added damage can kill the monster 10% faster, then even if the warrior takes 10% more damage then a pld they are equal.

RECIEVING DAMAGE -

This is broken up into two catagories -

Does the attack hit -
Warrior wins again vs. a PLD. A warrior will have Counter Attack and Dodge. These two abilities allow the warrior to be hit a lot less then a PLD.

Once hit the amount of damage -
PLD will win this on. But how much? Consider the fact that we are fighting IT monsters in all cases... theres a range where hits are taken that will do full damage regardless of armor. When these hits from a monster happen the Defense of a PLD isn't any more important then a BLMs. So while I'm a 100% positive once a hit is struck a PLD will take less damage... it is not that much.

HATE CONTROL

The warrior wins this one easily. They have War Cry which is just as good as provoke and do waaaaaaay more damage with a PLD. This means that the monster will not turn on the blm/drk/rng as easily. This is a very important ability because of the drk gets hit... whats the point of having a tank? Wasted mana from WHM. Furthermore while the Paladin CAN cast heal spells they can't attack while healing. Which means while they do get a hate bump its not nearly as much as people seem to think it is. And finnaly using war/mnk special abilities also creates hate. With a warrior you don't NEED a Theif in the group.

SPELLS/WEAPONSKILLS

Warrior has no spells, the PLD wins out. But many of the PLD spells server no point. Protections? You got a WHM. Status curing? WHM again, healing? Well theres something useful. BUT if the pld is casting heal spells then it will have to sit down eventually unless theres a BRD or a RDM! MEans slower pulls and less SKill chains. So now for a PLD to be effective you need not only a THF but a RDM/BRD!

As far as weapon skills it seems like the Warrior defense reduction attacks seem to be the winner here.

CONCLUSION -

A warrior/mnk is more efficent then a PAL/MNK beacuse it does more damage, controls the hate, and has party benifical spells. IT tanks a LITTLE less well then a PLD but not that much. Because while the PLD will be able to soak up more damage, the WAR/MNK is hit less often.

And finnaly a WAR/MNK has more HP then a PAL/WAR giving the healer a bit of added flexabilty when it comes to healing.

This is not to say the PAL/WAR is useless, vs tough NM fights I imagine a PAL/WAR would be awsome because of their amazing 2 hour ability. I think invincible is the best 2 hour in the game personally. And if you do have a THF and a mana regener of some sort I think the PAL/WAR can compete.

This is taken form a level 37 wars experience, but from my stand point it looks like War/Mnk tanks just as well if not better then a PLD.

[Pilsbane]

Ugg--you posted the same exact post in the Warriors forum.

To be honest, I am a little discouraged with Paladin myself. In the 20's I felt more powerful with my Warrior than I do with my Paladin. About the only thing that stands out for me is having hate-on-command by spamming a couple of Cure 2's. I've saved many people in groups that would have died if I was just a warrior. Plus, I've pulled creatures off of whitemages after they've used Benediction by using my own 2-hour Invincible, again saving the person from a death.

[Lewkowski]

Yes I want to get high level warrior AND high level paladin response. And I know people don't visit every job forum.

PLD has its uses, and the biggest one I think is vs. a NM. PLD is just so awsome, it can heal(and down time doesn'tm atter since your just there to kill that one monster) and use the GREATEST two hour ability in the game Invincible.

[Barook]

As a 30 WAR/15 MNK I have thought this myself.

Lets look at the Pros of this combo.

First off you get more hp then a PAL/WAR. For example:
50 Elvaan WAR/25MNK - 1043 HP
50 Elvaan PLD/25WAR - 950 HP

WAR/MNK get counter which helps prevent some attacks and gets hate by doing damage to the monster.

For AGRRO the WAR/MNK gets Provoke, Boost (yes boost has a descent amount of aggro), War Cry and Focus.

For Defense they get Defender (can be on all the time) and Dodge.

Also Warriors are encouraged to use their Break ws's as much as possible.

The only thing I can think is that the Paladins superior defense really starts to shine at some point, and their healing power really helps them hold aggro. Also the Paladin Artifact Armor has the following stats:

SWORD : D28; Delay240; VIT+2; MND+2
Gallant Leggings - Defense14; HP+15; CHR+5; Blocking with Shield Skill+10; Strength of Holy Circle Up

ARMOUR : Defense47; HP+20; VIT+4; Holy Magic Skill+5;
Hate +2

GAUNTLET : Defense16; HP+11; DEX+3; light magic resistance +10 Hate +2

CORONET : Defense24; HP+12; MND+3; Strength of Ability
Shield Up; Hate +2

BREECHES : Defense34; HP+15; AGI+3; Strengthening Magic Skill+5; Hate+2

Notice the Hate + and the incredible amount of shield skill ups. Serious amounts of shield blocking.

[Maxim]

When tanking in general, PLD/WAR > WAR/MNK.

PLD/WAR can control hate way better than Warrior can. Not only do they get Provoke but also the ability to heal which increases hate and heals the PLD simultaneously. Warriors doesn't get any benefits like that. Warriors may get Defender, but a PLD/WAR at 50 can get both Defender and Sentinel (and if I remember right Sentinel increases hate in addition to defense).

Also, the gap in defense between a Paladin and Warrior gets incredibly wide at higher levels. PLDs also get Cover which can save the melee members who created too much damage but have no defense (like DRK or DRG before 50) or save the mages if they accumulate way too much hate. PLDs can restore order better than Warriors can, because Warriors can only rely on Provoking once every 30 seconds, whereas a Paladin can both provoke and heal.

As far as using Weapon Skills goes, PLDs are hardly put into renkei combinations during the mid-levels because first off, they usually sit after battle, and second they don't do much damage anyway. And they rest when the mages rest so they're not wasting anybody's time either. It's unfair to factor in weaponskill usage when comparing who is the better tanker, especially because PLDs are limited to one-handed sword and one-handed staffs most of the time, and on top of that they aren't expected to do damage anyway, while on the other hand Warriors have a myriad of weapons to choose from.

A WAR/MNK may be able to counter, but they'll be taking more damage than a PLD/WAR. Having more HP isn't a big deal either, since the PLD's defense makes up for it. Unless you're in a party where monsters are killed fast and defense isn't an issue, you'll want to have a PLD since in the long run the mages will be able to conserve more MP due to less healing.

[rexaflex]

I'm only a lvl 28/14 PLD/WAR not exactly the high lvl you wanted to repond, but seriously have you ever grouped with a good paladin? shield bash, cure 2 and a provoke - i've had warriors TRY to get agro and not be able to...sure shield bash is a 5 minute reuse..but its still easy to get agro and hold it from warriors..make them pull and heal them while pulling, then with a provoke = awesome agro.

[Infest]

Im a 46 PLD/War right now don't know if thats high yet but let me tell you this, stick to your pali at lvl 30 your tanking ability greatly increases. I was in a group with 2 whm 2blm and a rdm and i could hold the mob all the time. When your fighting mobs as soon you get into attack mode voke, shield slam, sentinal, then start healing yourself. By the time the mob dies and the next one is pulled your timer for shield bash and sentinal should be up. Also make sure you keep voking the mob every 30 secs. Try that and it will be very hard for you to loose hate. Hope that helps.

[Lewkowski]

It seems to me that only at level 50 do pld ever catch up with warriors in tanking ability.

Before that a warrior has higher defense! Because defender can be on the entire time. Thats what 40+ defense? While the Paladin does have sentinel, it can only be on for 30 seconds.

Also post 50, Warriors get AF armor, which provides MORE emnity then the paladin.

I think far too many people think PAL/WAR = best tank just because thats their main focus. If you can kill a monster 10% faster, then you can afford to take 10% more damage. And with greater defense, greater evasion, and counter attack... (before level 50) I have a hard time in seeing where people get this idea PLD/WAR > WAR/MNK.

[Tybio]

I question the assertation that if a mob dies 10% faster that is always a good thing.

If a mob dies 10% faster and you use 20% more power for healing or even have to rest afterwards then your losing out.

When tanking damage is a bonus, the goal of a tank is to take as little damage as possible so the healers can keep going for long chains.

As to the question in this post, I've no direct info, just this point struck me as worth addressing.

[Kagi]

Infest, my party pulls like mad. The timer on Shield Bash and Sentinel is never both ready because they pull rather quickly, so I have to alternate between the two.

You know it does get really funny when you as a pld tank and the warriors are yelling at you to let them have aggro. >< At about 30+ some parties still have backup warriors for provoke so that's when the fun occurs.

Never underestimate the aggro power of cures. A well-timed cure2 or cure3 does wonders. I have partied with crazy pts of just 1 whm, 1 pld (me), and all heavy damage dealers for the rest and I can usually keep aggro with provokes and mainly heals.

War/mnks do not have the ability to cure. There is no way they can hold aggro at higher levels with just provoke when the drks and rngs are dishing out crazy damage. Also, at lvl 30 plds get their second def boost while warriors don't, so there again pld/war > war/mnk.

I have partied with war/mnks recently and they still take more damage than me. Even if they take less damage they lose the hate once a drk hits it with some mad WS. Also, you're forgetting that in emergencies a paladin's 2hr is easily the most efficient way to save the whm after benediction. Warriors lack that.

Of course, I have no experience with partying at 50+... but from 30-50, as far as I know, plds are definitely the hatekeepers and thus the tanks.

What is the point of being able to take little damage (which plds are already good at) if you can't keep hate?

[Lewkowski]

Well my great axe is still about 25 points below the max for my level (mini rant -:mad: WHY THE HELL DIDNT THEY ALLOW TWO HANDED WEAPONS TO LEVEL TWICE AS FAST! With their huge delay it takes twice or more to level up great axe then other weapons:mad: )

I was in a party with a ranger and I managed to hold the hate for the majority of the fight. Only rarely would the mob turn and that was only for maybe 1 or two hits. This was in Gustav tunnels in a 38-39 party. Could a paladin have done better? Well maybe but then we would of had to wait for the paladin to regen mana, furthermore me using Shield break made the fights MUCH quicker.

[nuvas]

Doesn't our Shield skill cap higher than Warriors? /shrug. Put me next to a 45 Warrior. If he has more defense with defender so be it, he can't use some of the shields we can, that atleast makes up for a little bit of defense. Between being able to heal ourself, use shield bash, sentinel, even our 2hour when shit hits the fan... Warriors just don't compare. Warriors simply can't general the hate we can. Use that job for what it's intended for, solid damage with the ability to tank fine when needed and the ability to use things like shield break and armor break, which are critical after 60+ unless you have a BRD with you.

Elidrin
45 Paladin/Warrior
Midgardsormr

Edit: I just saw your entry about waiting for the Paladin to regain MP. I group with a rdm all the time, and since level 41, I haven't sat once. Before 41 though I always made the non-casting melee pull while I regained MP. This usually worked fine and we had no unncessary downtime because of my lack of MP.

Also I've only grouped with a Thief twice. There are some times when I lose hate to the darkknight, or my whitemage. But I promise you a Warrior couldn't do as good of a job as I can as far as hate management goes. War Cry doesn't compete with healing yourself with a Cure 3. And a Warrior wouldn't be doing monster damage because of defender and the necessity of using a sword+shield. In defensive mode, a Warrior is just a subpar Paladin lacking our wonderful tools. My 2 cents.

[Lewkowski]

Warrior should not be using shield, Great Axe is an A+ weapon. ON top of that Shield break = teh win as is Armor break.

Warriors generate more hate on a normal basis because they deal MORE damage. Yes PLD can heal, but lets not forget the PLD has been doing less damage all this time.

And you say your always group with a RDM... well good for you! But...

You can't always get a RDM. Look a PLD isn't a bad tank, in fact it TANKS better probably when it comes to takeing damage. But the Warriors does MORE damage, lowers the monster evasion, and has better consistant hate!

[caelestis]

... at my lvl.. I would take a Paladin over a WAR/MNK *anyday*. I've seen both tank beetles/soldiers at this lvl... PLD does amazing on controlling hate, where as the WAR did half the dmg me and another dragoon were doing >.> PLD dont do dmg, they absorb it like sponges.. giving me a chance to berserk and continue wailing without much fear it's going to turn and smack me.

And *as* a decent lvl PLD, I tanked better than I did as a WAR. There is a HUGE defense difference.

edit: for the last time tho, PLDs arent meant do DO dmg. If you don't like that don't go PLD. WAR don't do amazing amounts of DMG later on... theres other melee classes to make up for it. I've outdamaged almost every WAR I've PTed with.. ^^

[Icemage]

Damage = hate, sure, but its not everything. As a WHM, I always, ALWAYS prefer a good PLD/WAR over a WAR/MNK.

With a WAR/MNK, I can easily pull hate away from them with Curaga or Divine Seal/Anything. with a PLD/WAR, I rarely have to worry about more than one or two combat rounds (which I'm more than prepared to deal with).

Plus, with a PLD, I can just toss a Regen on them and restrict my casting to low-grade healing magic, which reduces MY hate.

And if you think a bit of extra damage nets you more hate than Cure III, I have some prime swampland I'd love to sell you.



Icemage