War/mnk > Pal/war High level PLD please respond!

[caelestis]

Originally posted by Icemage
Damage = hate, sure, but its not everything. As a WHM, I always, ALWAYS prefer a good PLD/WAR over a WAR/MNK.

With a WAR/MNK, I can easily pull hate away from them with Curaga or Divine Seal/Anything. with a PLD/WAR, I rarely have to worry about more than one or two combat rounds (which I'm more than prepared to deal with).

Plus, with a PLD, I can just toss a Regen on them and restrict my casting to low-grade healing magic, which reduces MY hate.

And if you think a bit of extra damage nets you more hate than Cure III, I have some prime swampland I'd love to sell you.



Icemage

*applause* well said ^^ But since you mention it... my WS can pull off a WAR no problems >.> ^^

[Valmaton]

Originally posted by Lewkowski
It seems to me that only at level 50 do pld ever catch up with warriors in tanking ability.

Level 30PLD/15WAR has 2x Physical Defense Up from PLD as main job and 1 Physical Defense Up from Warrior sub (Level 10 Warrior), does it not?

Confused I am and reasoning I do not see, Obi-wan.

O_o

[nuvas]

Originally posted by Lewkowski
Warrior should not be using shield, Great Axe is an A+ weapon. ON top of that Shield break = teh win as is Armor break.

Warriors generate more hate on a normal basis because they deal MORE damage. Yes PLD can heal, but lets not forget the PLD has been doing less damage all this time.

And you say your always group with a RDM... well good for you! But...

You can't always get a RDM. Look a PLD isn't a bad tank, in fact it TANKS better probably when it comes to takeing damage. But the Warriors does MORE damage, lowers the monster evasion, and has better consistant hate!

Are you playing the same game I'm playing? How are you not understanding that a Paladin generates more hate than a Warrior all the time? Do you honestly think a Warrior can compete with Cure 3s for hate? If damage were the only thing you needed to get hate, the monster would be stuck on Darkknights, Rangers, and Blackmages ALL the time. We all know Shield Break is "teh win" and so is Armor Break, but a Warrior that's tanking to his maximum efficiency would be using a sword and shield, that was my point. You're living in a sad sad dream world if you think Paladins only "probably" take better damage than Warriors. Warriors are wonderful classes as I said in my post, but like I also said, Paladins were MADE for what we're doing.

Elidrin
48 Paladin/Warrior
Midgardsormr

[asushiman]

For the record.. I LOVE PARTYING with WAR/MNK.. y? It's easier to keep the hate with their average damage capabilites Just keep using Cure 2 and your job is done. Average meaning that it's weaker than DRKs, SAMs or MNKs

[Moo]

asushiman groups with some crappy warriors.

My best friend is a Galka WAR/MNK and he can dish out some crazy damage. Sure, not as much as a DRK or DRG or RNG, but he is right up there with (if not better than) any MNK or SAM. Not to mention he's a mean tank.

A WAR/MNK is a great tank. A PLD/WAR just has a little bit of an edge on them. They can pull hate just a bit better and can mitigate more damage (ie they take less damage and can help heal their damage).

As a WHM, my favorite tanker is a PLD/WAR followed by WAR/MNK and then SAM/WAR and then everything else. My favorite party I have been in so far had three frontliners: A PLD, WAR, and DRK. All of them were Galka. It was a White Mage's heaven. The PLD would tank and the WAR was ready if our BLM or I pulled too much hate. And also, them being Galka, they had so much HP and took so little damage. I loved it.



And to whoever the DRG was that was bragging about doing more damage than a WAR:
I would hope so. The Warrior will tank about as twice as good as you will. It would be kinda unfair if they owned you in tank ability and damage dealing.

[caelestis]

Originally posted by Moo

And to whoever the DRG was that was bragging about doing more damage than a WAR:
I would hope so. The Warrior will tank about as twice as good as you will. It would be kinda unfair if they owned you in tank ability and damage dealing.

... that DRG has a name >.>

I still attest PLD > WAR for pts in later lvl. I have yet to see a really good WAR keep agro off of me and my DRK friend because of our dmg output.

[Nanila]

Even if they can tank better (which I doubt), they cannot hold hate better. And that is more important. Plds have more skills to get and hold hate compared to a war.

[Zwillinge]

I have nothing but sympathy for those who plan to be war/mnk, be a great tank, and have that combo at high lvls. Does this combo work? Yes it does. Untill lvl 40 or so. Thats when it dawns on you that for the rest of the lvls you are to attain, you will not recieve any more defense pluss stuff. Your equipment has nothing but attack plus and equal or mostly less def than paladin equipment.

PTs are dissopointed when you show how much damage you can do with a swrd and shield, and they suggest to buy some knuckles due to allof the martial arts plusses you have with mnk subjob.

Your Sheild skill stops raising, the higher lvls you go; the more dmg is done to you.

Also, don't even think that upgrading armor at every lvl will keep you alive. Why wont it, because at high lvls there are 10 lvl gaps between your armor and the next armor you can wear. at 50 you may have to wait untill 60 or so to get decent armor. (slight exagerration)

Also, mnk has no defense privlidges, aside from a good vitality plus. However, when monsters fight you at higher lvls, high vitality but low defense will make your whtmgs go nuts with how much they have to heal you. Especially just before an incredibly tough beast. It takes at least half of the whtmgs mp just to prepare for the fight. Then you have to add dwn time to let the whtmg get his/her mp back.

my opinion: war/mnks are average tanks who can be thier own enemy with thier sheer amnt of vitality and trying to get it back to it's max with out wasting too much of the healers mp.

Fact: without pal jobtraits, a war/mnk will be buthcered at high lvls. Yes, that is a fact.

However, a war/mnk isnt a bad combination. Mnk is the easiest job to lvl up. I have lvled up mnk to sub war. Then lvled war with mnk and was a good tank. Untill lvl 25 when i noticed pals where much better. (i actually suggested that i be backup tank and dd). Then, I decided to be wht and rdmgs to add some magic skill power and avoid purchasing scrolls while I would be a pal. Then, while as pal, I noticed that our healer didnt have to heal me as often, thus reducing the hate towards herself. And I am glad to say that my pal tanking days are a real joy.

Well, i hope my story sheds some light onto the situation. It happened to me first hand. And if anyone still thinks a war/mnk are better tanks, i suggest you try. Then once you have your jse and af armor with half the defense of the paladins' af and jse armor, you will then switch to paladin.

[Tabish]

First off Ive lvled both War and Pld to 40 and Ill tell you the differences Ive seen first hand.

First off dmg, there really is no argument there war does great dmg comparded to pld. My war from lvl 30-40 was on par or out dmging ever other melee class with defender on. But then again I did have the best equipment possible ><. My pld to lvl 40 I think I hit for like 20 lol, but I dont even really notice or pay attension to my dmg, im always watching to see what spells the blms are casting to parpare my self If I need to drop a cure 3 or what ever.

Second is def... Most ppl get this confused It is true that wars have more def with defender on but Ive found def isnt anything big, Its more about VIT that stat many plds dont think about. Yes it is true that 2 VIT = 1 DEF but VIT also has an invisible stat that lowers attack dmg. Take crawlers my WARs def is 240 my Plds def is 200, Crawlers would hit my War for 70-80s and Would hit my Pld for 40-50s big difference. VIT is what the Plds main goal should be, that and keeping your def up too.

Third evasion, yes the war/mnk has dodge but you have to add in that the war will be using a 2h axe so he will have no shield blocking and the pld will have shield blocking, evasion and parrying to miss/block attacks. So the pld total beats the war here. My War would parry or get missed about 25% of the time. and my pld blocks/ gets missed about 50% of the time.

Forth is hate, Yes War total beats Pld in dmg but dmg really doesnt get too much hate. Cure get way more hate then anything... I take that back bind gets more hate ><, lol. Heal will totaly win vs vokes.

All in all the Pld is a total better tank then Wars, because they get hit less, take less dmg and can hold hate better then any War.

On a side note why plds not doing much dmg isnt really important. They enable the group to get a better config, the other day I was in a group with 3 blms 1 whm 1 brd and 1 Pld and I held hate the whole time, never once did the mages get hit, that Is something a war would never beable to do. You would have to drop an extra spot for a second voker with a war and even with 2 vokers your mages would end up getting hit once or twice.

[Awntawn]

Level 60~ WAR is real good... The AF chest alone is worth about 2~3 cure4's. When you have armor with +emnity, each ability you use gains you hate, for WAR with that much hate on AF, each provoke, each warcry, defender, and berserk gains so much more than PLD's does.

Then again, this is before patch

Now, shield break sucks like hell, PLD gets flash (which rules)... IMO now PLD is the superior tank.

On the other hand, when it's a PT like DRK & RNG, you basically go "screw the hate... 3 attackers go" and have the WAR take the beatings until you WS (in this party, AKA write the death sentence)

BTW, pre-60, WAR should try subbing DRK :p you'll have no trouble keeping hate with last resort :p MNK sub doesn't do anything to help your hate gain. You also get weapon bash at 40

[Grol]

Seriously Antwan, sub DRK? Sorry for butting in on the PLD forums btw. I sub MNK for the hp bonus since I'm hume, and boost helps me in aggro control. Last resort is every 5 minutes correct? Will that really help me control hate better than boosting, and will the hp dropoff be hurtful?

[nuvas]

I'd have to say Last Resort pulls a lot more hate than boost, but I'm sure Awntawn could tell you more about it than I could. I'm just going by my observations. My DRK friend and I have grouped for 50 levels and ever since 30 the second he uses Last Resort I have to be on my toes in order to get hate back, sometimes I can't lol.

Elidrin
55 Paladin/Warrior
Midgardsormr

[Somajan]

As a former level 40 paladin, I remember keeping the hate well enough, even after the warrior/monk in my party used war cry in the CN. For Renkei use I was actually able to hold own and actually participate in a number of the skillchains and deal some substantial damage, course I had two dex rings with me, which I know I should've used the Vit rings, but the poor dex of a paladin and all those misses really got to me after a while.

Anyways, using Shield bash and Sentinel and Provoke all in the same macro was about enough to keep the monster focused on killing me rather than my fellow teammates and mages even when they used Cure II and other stuff on that level. Damage I was getting was also much less than my fellow warrior/mnk and sam/mnk in the party, also I could use a shield and blocked a large number of attacks.