Why DRG/SAM isn't so Godly

[contagiondc]

LOL I had to reply to this thread because Sanguine's in my LS on Pandemonium server.

My two cents worth is this:

Penta-Spam isn't Penta-SPAM vs IT mobs. Given I'm an Elvaan, I still have 2 Sniper's Rings, Life Belt, Assault Earring, Coral Gorget, full AF, Emporer's Hairpin, Grand Knight's Lance, etc. I've got all those + Accuracy items, and even when there's a Bard in the party singing double madrigals... Penta-Spam isn't really Penta-spam with SAM sub. Three minute cooldown on each meditate, and the meditate only give you 60%.

The one useful thing I do get from SAM sub is this:

I get to set up a lot more skillchains for a Ranger, Dark Knight, or Thief to finish. See, in order to skillchain with a DRK for instance, you need to use Vorpal Thrust, which gives you only 13% or so TP return, and that automatically puts you behind the DRK's 4 hitter TP return of 40+%. So basically, meditate helps you play catch up with your skillchain partner.

I'm not saying this is true of all IT mobs either, crawlers seem to take a lot of hits, whereas the damn Perytons in Valley of Sorrow seem to evade like they're on crack.

SAM sub reflects the essence of Samurai: the ability to [ set up ] skill chains. Samurai, on his own, isn't very powerful in terms of damage dealing (in comparison to other classes that is). It's the ability to add 50-80% of a powerful weaponskill damage (for example, by setting up a Ranger to Sidewinder finish a skillchain). that makes the Samurai powerful useful. The same goes for meditate in the support job position. A Dragoon therefore becomes more capable of chaining with the party. If you think you're just gonna spam weaponskills, you're sorely mistaken unless you're in a VT chaining party, which is fun in its own respect, and should allow for a DRG/SAM who wants to go crazy.

But, yes, if you're partying for 200+ EXP IT kills, then the added DEX, Berserk, and Double Attack from the Warrior support job will go much, much further than a 60% TP add every 3 minutes.

Tanthalas
Once a Dragoon... now gone astray to other jobs because having to earn more than 30,000 EXP per level sucks ass.

[Sanguine]

Once a Dragoon... now gone astray to other jobs because having to earn more than 30,000 EXP per level sucks ass.

Naw, 30000 exp is ok. It's having to get 30000+ exp per level *and* being one of the least desired jobs in the game that makes it rough.

I recently switched to playing a Bard. The game experience is totally different and I'm having fun again. How's the summoner? =P

[Potsnu]

I don't know about you guys....but as Drg/War, I am able to use Pentathrust right after Initial Fuidama and STILL outpace my Thf's TP before he is ready for Skewer --> Dancing Edge Fuidama. I don't see the issue of trying to "catch up" to other melees for skillchains. In fact, by the time my Thf is rdy for Dancing Edge Fuidama, I am doing a 160% skewer. This is on IT's and I'm Elvaan. Of course, the game will change at 65, so I will have to see since I will be using Wheeling Thrust instead for renkeis. Imo, War sub is the most viable option up until 65+, and not 60+.

Also, I think the biggest lost of all from using Sam sub is the lack of ability to set up Fuidama. Let's face it, a Good exp PT will consist of: Whm, Rdm, Blm, Pld, Thf, and yourself. If you go Sam sub, you're relying solely on WS to turn the mob, and hope the Pld didn't build too much intial agro for you to turn it. If I can't set up Fuidama, not even Flash + Shield Bash + Cures can take it off me. The way I work with Thf it's almost flawless. I use Defender, do 1st Provoke for fuidama, click off Defender, use Berserk, use Penta Thrust, Jump, High Jump, and than I'm waiting for Thf to get rdy for Dancing Edge and for his Fuidama to be rdy for skillchain. More than enough time to "catch up" to my Thf. More like the Thf trying to "catch up" to me.

Contagiondc, sadly I have never been in a situation where I actually had to use Vorpal Thrust for Drk. As a matter of fact, I have NEVER grouped with a Drk for 1 very obvious reason. Drg's and Drk fit in the same melee category, therefore, unless you're in a sub par group, I won't be in the same PT as a Drk ^^

[Weezingpipes]

Actually if you look at any skillchain chart, Scythes have significantly better versatility compared to Polearms, they aren't in the same category. Rangers and Dragoons are basically in the same category skillchain wise, which makes them poor in parties together since about all you can do is Transfixion/Compression chains. Whereas a DRG can basically do those 2 and Distortion reliably, a DRK can do Scission, Liquefaction, Distortion, Detonation, Induration, Fragmentation, Impaction....see where this is going? DRG can do Impaction too of course, but only with very low damage WS which results in poor chain damage anyway. Not even close to being in the same damage slot. DRK > you.

[Potsnu]

same melee category

Do people even read? What does this mean exactly? A damage melee class. What fits in this category? Mnk, Rng, Drk, Drg, Sam. Does this imply their Skillchains are equal? No. I wasn't talking about their role in Renkeis. I was talking about their role as a Job. Like I said before. A good PT will consist of: Whm, Blm, Rdm/Brd, Thf, Pld, Damage melee class if they want 3-4k Exp/hour. Since I am a damage melee class.....I will not be in the same PT as a Drk, unless I replace Thf with a Drk/Thf at 60+. Again to reiterate since you seem to have trouble comprehending and reading, I am NOT Equal as a Drk in terms of damage output, nor am I equal in terms of Renkei versatibility. I don't even know what you're talking about. No where in my post did I imply such.

Reading > you.

[sonova]

i do gravitation and lead up to a detonation (or some other air based renkei i forget =P ) all the time?
i have no idea what the hell you are talking about........

and never you mind that penta thrust is kind of abusive not because of its damage or chainability , but because you end up with potentially 60% or more TP at the end?

anyway what kind of moron will pick DRK over DRG solely based on the chainability of their WSes?

you pick DRK and DRG to do damage. full stop. so in that sense DRK and DRG inhabit the same party slot.

[Potsnu]

Exactly, I never do Transfixion/Compression unless I'm with a Rng. 95% of the time I'm with a Thf. So I'm doing either Detonation/Gravitation with Dancing Edge, or Distortion with Skewer. Since I'm fighting Toramas at the moment, I favour the former. Drg's are fine in terms of chainability with WS. Even at lower levels, you'll be doing Double Thrust --> Viper Bite for Distortion. Since I make all my PT's and Drk fit the same role as me, I have never nor will I in the future be able to group with a Drk unless I want 1.5k to 2k exp/hour. As you reach 65+, a plethora of MB options become available.

[Serif]

Originally posted by Potsnu
same melee category

Do people even read? What does this mean exactly? A damage melee class. What fits in this category? Mnk, Rng, Drk, Drg, Sam. Does this imply their Skillchains are equal? No. I wasn't talking about their role in Renkeis. I was talking about their role as a Job. Like I said before. A good PT will consist of: Whm, Blm, Rdm/Brd, Thf, Pld, Damage melee class if they want 3-4k Exp/hour. Since I am a damage melee class.....I will not be in the same PT as a Drk, unless I replace Thf with a Drk/Thf at 60+. Again to reiterate since you seem to have trouble comprehending and reading, I am NOT Equal as a Drk in terms of damage output, nor am I equal in terms of Renkei versatibility. I don't even know what you're talking about. No where in my post did I imply such.

Reading > you.

Just pointing out something, isn't it at higher levels, the WHM is optional instead of the RDM. I talked to 2 JP people who live in USA now who has atleast 2-3 Level 75 characters each. They say that RDM + BRD + BLM Combo is easily enough MP to heal the PT. Can anyone at high level 70+ relay if this is true or not? I mean come on, RDM=Refresh,Convert BRD=Mages Ballad I+II, and BLM having WHM subbed.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Serif
They say that RDM + BRD + BLM Combo is easily enough MP to heal the PT.

Enough? Yes. Ideal? Perhaps ... until the party gets a link and someone dies, and then you're stuck Raise1 instead of Raise2/3.

Besides, I can't speak for all rdm's, but I dislike being the main healer in a party. If I wanted to do that I'd go whm instead of rdm.

[Potsnu]

Serif, you are correct. At higher levels, Whm is optional and can be replaced by Rdm. However, if you read what I said carefully, the setup I indicated is the Ideal/Good PT setup necessary to obtain 3-4k exp/hour. Furthermore, at higher levels, you often need to keep Sneak/Invis on the whole PT and travel across 2-3 zones to reach your exp destination. Simply put, Shit happens, especially when Sneak/Invis is placed on a random timer. Getting 25% back vs. 75%/95% is the difference between 1 Kill and 2 hours worth of exp ^^

Sigh, people never read the whole post before they reply =/ Ironically, I even stated that in my reply. I agree with Deodorant, not all Rdm's want to play full time healer. That is not their role. They are support healers and their main role is Debuffing/Enfeeblement.

[Serif]

Originally posted by Potsnu
Serif, you are correct. At higher levels, Whm is optional and can be replaced by Rdm. However, if you read what I said carefully, the setup I indicated is the Ideal/Good PT setup necessary to obtain 3-4k exp/hour. Furthermore, at higher levels, you often need to keep Sneak/Invis on the whole PT and travel across 2-3 zones to reach your exp destination. Simply put, Shit happens, especially when Sneak/Invis is placed on a random timer. Getting 25% back vs. 75%/95% is the difference between 1 Kill and 2 hours worth of exp ^^

Sigh, people never read the whole post before they reply =/ Ironically, I even stated that in my reply. I agree with Deodorant, not all Rdm's want to play full time healer. That is not their role. They are support healers and their main role is Debuffing/Enfeeblement.

I wasn't saying you were wrong, I completely understand the roles of the WHM and RDM at higher levels. I read everything. I was just really bored at college and just decided to reply to you, and I guess this is how it came out.