Why DRG/SAM isn't so Godly

[sonova]

you will do more damage with penta if you skill chain it anyway

warrior you gain more consistent damage + utility

thf you get steal. yes only steal. the effects from gil finder and treasure hunter are irrelevant since theres almost always another thf in the party. please note that sneak attack with thf sub is sub optimal since it looks like stats dont focus subjob skills (yes i have tested this). which means your sneak attack hits only hit as if they were a normal crit not the 6-10x damage that main job thfs do and i suspect it is the same for trick attack.

sam you get the ability to do a solo chain which is not really that powerful. or to pentathrust an entire fight which is not really that powerful since you will probably need super jump to bleed the hate off so you are limited by your skill refresh timer unless you want to cause the WHM alot of stress

[Akimatu]

Well thats the idea for most people on the boards is to Mainly use Warrior for XP parties and then Sub Samurai while soloing or just for fun.

Personally I would like to think Samurai is nice for soloing but then again you wouldnt have the healing breath from the dragoon which is a plus like sanguine said in other threads.

But Ideally in a xp group you won't be able to use your Abilities as a Samurai in a XP group to its full potential because of the Super Jump Cool down time(ie. 5 mins). But thats what we are all getting at. A Warrior would be able to use his abilites (ie. Berserker/double attack) at its up most highest abilities, while parting for XP.

You gotta think, the game would be to unbalanced it Super Jump had a shorter Cool down time, because of the massive spam of penta and super jump. :sweat:

[Akimatu]

Thats whole other issue also, making the WHM waste its mana on you while you being a Dragoon that is not suppose to tank taking 100+ dmg from IT mobs, while the Paladin or Ninja would be taking a whole lot less DMG. So less dmg = less mana used = less downtime.

Don't be so selfish and try to look so cool dealing gobs and gobs of damage. Sure mobs will die faster, but more mana will be used if the hate is on you, unless who ever tanking is really good.

[Ragnarok54321]

Would DRG/DRK be good? DRK does alot of dmg and DRG aren't for tanking anyway so the subtracted defense wouldn't be that bad...would it?

[TMPikachu]

Originally posted by Potsnu
Sanguine, you hit everything right on the money. I wanted to persude Sam sub at 60+, but now I'm having second thoughts, mainly because of the few things you pointed out.

First of all, I'm 57 right now. If I were to Penta spam everytime i'm at 100%, I gain more hate than I can shake off. What does this mean? I"m wasting valueable MP causing unnecessary downtime and slowing down exp. I think a typical group considers 3k/hour as a good exp group. By constantly Penta spamming, you'll be getting considerably less than 3k/hour.

Now what is the main function of having a Sam sub over a War sub? The idea supposedly is gaining more TP and doing more Penta spam. This is not possible. There is no way you can control the huge amount of hate you'll gain by doing this. You'll just be wasting MP as I pointed out before. Yes you have Super Jump...but in a good PT, you'll manage to get 1 super Jump every 3 fights. I'm really wondering if Samurai sub is worth giving up all the great things a War sub has to offer.

Berserk is amazing. Your dmg output will be consistent, and it helps drastically with WS. Double attack is also a blessing. It goes off quite often as you go up in lvls, at least from what I noticed. The occasional 72% or even 84% is quite nice as well. You'll also have crappy stats with a Sam sub in comparison to a War sub.

All in all, all that extra TP you'll be gaining from a Samurai sub won't do you any good, simply because you can't control all the hate you'll gain. On the flip side of the coin, even a Good/Skilled Pld with Rdm in the group won't be able to hold agro off you. In the end, you'll be wasting MP, causing unnecessary downtime, and slowing down exp for the rest of the PT. With a Ninja Blink tank, Agro control becomes more an issue. This is because Ninja have a tough time holding agro in the upper lvls, unless they're filthy rich.

Before there is any confusion, I don't think Sanguine made this post for the purpose of putting down Sam as a support job. He is merely point out the fact that the Sam sub is not what everyone thinks it should be. When I first made a Dragoon, and read the posts on this forum, I was under the assumption Sam sub is the way to go for 60+ However, as I approached 50-60 lvls, I started to realize, I really need to moderate my hate and can't go all out if I want to be efficient in a group. NO one would group with a Drg that uses Penta everytime you have 100%.

I was relieved to open up this thread, because Sanguine shares the same thoughts and realizations I've made lvling as a Dragoon. When I do a /sea Drg 60-, I see that 80% use War sub, 10% use Thf sub, 5% use Whm sub, and 5% use Sam sub. Some would argue a Sam sub allows you to self renkei. That may sound good on paper, and seem like a cool idea...but its utterly useless. What renkei does that make? Light? Darkness? That does like what on IT's? 10-30 dmg? You're better off doing 2 Pentas instead of Penta > Skewer. Hell, if you time your Penta just before you Swing, than do 2 jumps afterwards, you can self renkei anyways. Only advantage I see with a Sam sub is that, you will no longer be stuck at that dreadful 96%. Sometimes that's ok, because you might get hit 2 times from agro, other times its annoying waiting for that extra hit before you can go again.

It sounds to me that you are saying warrior is better sub because it does less damage?

Couldn't a drg/sam just restrain himself, do /war damage, then spam away at the monster's last slivers of health?
or do WS's deliver a spike of hate greater than consistantly higher average hits?


on drg/drk

/war gives you berserk (better than last resort I hear)
and double attack
the only thing drk has going is a tiny MP pool for 1/2 level magic, and attack boost II (I think they can get att II)

[LunarGaze]

Well i personally agree with awntawn and ayako sorry if i spelled your names wrong. If everyone in the groups knows what they are doing drg/sam is good. I am going to sub war until lvl 60 then switch to sam sub. If they want a war sub then i will do that too if needed. My main sub will be Sam though. If your so worried about spamming penta's and getting hate why not just NOT spam them. If someone spams skillchains for nothing then they are an idiot and deserve the hate and ensues damage that befalls them. I only use TP in a skillchain personally. Again assuming everyone in the PT is competent which isn't hard to assume at lvl 60 your fine with a sam sub. Now if it were possible to try this is qufim on my server your dead most people at lower lvls aren't really good in PT's yet. lvl 60+ you should know what your doing. If the PLD sucks kicks him out and get another or grab a ninja or war/mnk or whatever tank you can find.

[Ragnarok54321]

Ok so if you sub DRK you don't have stronger attacks?

[sonova]

berserk lasts longer than last resort

i would only really sub DRK for souleater but berserk is plenty enough for me

[Ragnarok54321]

Who would do more using regular attacks? DRG/SAM or DRG/DRK?

[TMPikachu]

well, a samurai has no real bonus for 'normal' attacks

while a warrior has no 'special' attacks

[SelfdestButton]

I'd have to agree with Sanguine on pretty much all of his points, but I'll offer a counter-point anyway.

WAR= better consistent party benefits, people generally feel safer with another voker lying around (even if it is a DRG)

But I would have to vouch for the Samurai sub if his/her abilities were used with a conservative last resort sort of approach. If say, the proverbial shit hits the fan, said drg/sam would have (ideally) two or more pentas, high jump, jump, those wyvern breath attacks, and a super jump to shed the phenominal amount of hate resulting from these abilities. ASSUMING you have saved these abilities for just such an occasion, this strategy effectively becomes your replacement for a traditional 2 hour ability (since the dragoon doesnt really ave one) and the cool down is the cool down of your super jump. I totally agree that the warrior's abilities are there for you all the time, and the party sees benefits because of this. There are only two things you could do to distinguish the "better" sub of the two.

A. Use either for the appropriate situation

B. aesthetic value (whats cooler?)

There are really pros and cons to both, and it ultimately comes down to the competence of your PT.

[Darkani]

Im gonna level up SAM, want to try it out and I think it should be useful when soloing. Am I right?

[Sanguine]

No

[TokeN]

Soloing is not what this game is about, why does everyone wanna go that route .

except if ur a BST...

[Feday]

do a mage if you wanna solo... soloing is all about the healing breath.

War and Sam are both good grouping subs from what ive read. It would do you good to have them both fully lvld after 60 and switch out for whatever the PT needs most.