NIN tanks, what am i doing wrong?

[Jaggywaggy]

well then you are obviously a shitty ninja. that is all. read my previous post before u respond. and i did not have to wait to attack for the ninja to build hate. our ninja did not throw things at all...he just used ninjitsu a lot. im sorry u suck at ninja and ur ninja parties sucked. maybe it has something to do with u as a player?

You sir are the idiot. I've yet feel the need to flame, but you have your job's ego in the way. And I don't feel put down told I'm not needed by what else, drks, especially ones that can't capitalize their sentences and talk like it's AIM. This is directed to only one of you and my hint is the rude one not using paragraphs making things harder to read. Most drk's repling are giving me, "It's not needed because ____" You " omg lol shut, ur the suk" I have no problem debating, but act like the other drk, they gave something to argue about.

Did I say I have trouble keeping hate as ninja? No I said it takes some time first, the blm can't come out nuking early at all, ninja building hate over time especially compared to other tanks, minus shurikens if the invest, they have no way for quick "powerful" hate. Did I say I need time? Yes I have. I've had extermely successful parties with me as ninja. I been in a party that chained 200-250 for 2 straight hours, no downtime, no joke.

Did I say I have parties with ninja tanks that were unsuccessful? No I didn't so please read what I said because I never said that. However what I did say was the few times something went wrong with starting SATA, ninja had trouble, the other melee would be tanking for 30 seconds. Again this adds onto what I said, hate over time.

What's thief do then? Why instant hate, you aren't getting that part. Everyone can go all out from the get-go, allowing for a more successful damage log from the damage dealers. RNG+SAM+THF+BLM+NINJA+RDM(emergency heal incase a SATA goes wrong)most damage in the game pre 66 WITHOUT question. Dual distortion chains with awsome MBs. But ninja gets rid of need for wm, even rdm, get brd to pump all the melee up, blm could emergency heal if he really needs to. Now That wouldn't be possible without thief since the hate would most likely be going all over the damn place.

Ask some ninjas, the good ones will actually tell you they don't need thief, but it's extermely costly and not worth it, which goes along with, most aren't willing to do that. It's spamming shurikens and spells for hours straight. Where'd I get that from...? Why I read the ninja boards along with every job's board. So don't even attempt to call me stubbern on that point. If you asked them,, damge+voke+utsusemi alone is not enough without thf, they need more. Most are not ashamed to admit they need thief too, it's not as if the job was made to tank, that's preheps the whole reason the need thief so often.

yzfr6, please stop telling a job you know nothing about about how useless we are, it's obvious from your responses which avoid my points made you don't have a clue. You're the NA(I'm NA too so don't get any ideas) stereo-type that can't understand thf in your typical party it seems. You also fit the stereo-type DRKs get, the one that is they spread BS about their job to put everyone else down. Although I haven't seen this problem ingame at all honestly, just on the boards and only from 25% of teh Drk or so.

If you want to mention shurikens this is however a whole new debate. Well with some it's a debate, with others it's talking witha brick wall. I'll agree if a ninja spams shurikens of the latest level, they definitely won't need a thief.

However the way your posts come across, you're putting down my job entirely and I'm sick of it. To say thief is pointless(This is the message I'm getting, no stop disrespect for me and thf), that's like saying " OH no we dont' need a tank, because we'll kill the mob so fast". Accept it or not thf has a niche, and with ninja blink tank, that's when we get to fill it, just like you have a drk/thf niche at post 66, and in the 40ish range for good damage+absorbs. SE made hate control jobs for a reason, because some tanks "will" need them.

You can believe you'll never gain hate with a ninja tank without thief, but one day you'll be leveling off a mob with high damage special, as luck would it you or the mages will one day get it. Don't say I didn't warn you, that's all. I don't wish this to happen, but someone help the poor thfs on your sever, you've probably talked them down so much to other jobs.

Phr0st, I'm in some doubt there but maybe you could change that.

1. did the ninja use shurikens? You failed to mention this and my next question.
2. How much did you hold back at the beginning? Surely you weren't turned on the berserk,last, and soul. I could however believe you used them at the end as you said you did without hate turning instantly.

Why do I have doubt about this? During low 40s when I partied with a good drk, pretty good pld, the drk could turn hate midway in the fight with soul,last,berserk used. By midway, a pld(The king of hate) should have well stacked hate by then. Appartently my SATAs which were averaging 400ish(keep in mind lower 40s on soldiers) at the time weren't enough.

This was before I made some upgrades, +19dex,+16agi,+6 attack(only during non SATA times). since then I made some upgrades, now +21dex,+16agi,+10attack on SATA, +16 on normal hits. I can't wait to see how I fare against beetles. What I seem to have to xp on alot now, but I've hit 550+350ish on INC fly...on enpi>viper. I bet I could break 1000 now on a fly. How do I suck? Sucky people simply don't farm for that kind of setup, they are satisfied with outdated equipment, no food, etc, or that medicore average weapon/armor crap. And there are very few statics at my level. I have some people in mind in my LS though.

Amuse me, provide an arguement longer than a few sentences claiming I suck, I can handle a civilized debate so please give one.

[ibroyles]

Originally posted by Jaggywaggy
You sir are the idiot. I've yet feel the need to flame, but you have your job's ego in the way. And I don't feel put down told I'm not needed by what else, drks, especially ones that can't capitalize their sentences and talk like it's AIM. This is directed to only one of you and my hint is the rude one not using paragraphs making things harder to read. Most drk's repling are giving me, "It's not needed because ____" You " omg lol shut, ur the suk" I have no problem debating, but act like the other drk, they gave something to argue about.

Did I say I have trouble keeping hate as ninja? No I said it takes some time first, the blm can't come out nuking early at all, ninja building hate over time especially compared to other tanks, minus shurikens if the invest, they have no way for quick "powerful" hate. Did I say I need time? Yes I have. I've had extermely successful parties with me as ninja. I been in a party that chained 200-250 for 2 straight hours, no downtime, no joke.

Did I say I have parties with ninja tanks that were unsuccessful? No I didn't so please read what I said because I never said that. However what I did say was the few times something went wrong with starting SATA, ninja had trouble, the other melee would be tanking for 30 seconds. Again this adds onto what I said, hate over time.

What's thief do then? Why instant hate, you aren't getting that part. Everyone can go all out from the get-go, allowing for a more successful damage log from the damage dealers. RNG+SAM+THF+BLM+NINJA+RDM(emergency heal incase a SATA goes wrong)most damage in the game pre 66 WITHOUT question. Dual distortion chains with awsome MBs. But ninja gets rid of need for wm, even rdm, get brd to pump all the melee up, blm could emergency heal if he really needs to. Now That wouldn't be possible without thief since the hate would most likely be going all over the damn place.

Ask some ninjas, the good ones will actually tell you they don't need thief, but it's extermely costly and not worth it, which goes along with, most aren't willing to do that. It's spamming shurikens and spells for hours straight. Where'd I get that from...? Why I read the ninja boards along with every job's board. So don't even attempt to call me stubbern on that point. If you asked them,, damge+voke+utsusemi alone is not enough without thf, they need more. Most are not ashamed to admit they need thief too, it's not as if the job was made to tank, that's preheps the whole reason the need thief so often.

yzfr6, please stop telling a job you know nothing about about how useless we are, it's obvious from your responses which avoid my points made you don't have a clue. You're the NA(I'm NA too so don't get any ideas) stereo-type that can't understand thf in your typical party it seems. You also fit the stereo-type DRKs get, the one that is they spread BS about their job to put everyone else down. Although I haven't seen this problem ingame at all honestly, just on the boards and only from 25% of teh Drk or so.

If you want to mention shurikens this is however a whole new debate. Well with some it's a debate, with others it's talking witha brick wall. I'll agree if a ninja spams shurikens of the latest level, they definitely won't need a thief.

However the way your posts come across, you're putting down my job entirely and I'm sick of it. To say thief is pointless(This is the message I'm getting, no stop disrespect for me and thf), that's like saying " OH no we dont' need a tank, because we'll kill the mob so fast". Accept it or not thf has a niche, and with ninja blink tank, that's when we get to fill it, just like you have a drk/thf niche at post 66, and in the 40ish range for good damage+absorbs. SE made hate control jobs for a reason, because some tanks "will" need them.

You can believe you'll never gain hate with a ninja tank without thief, but one day you'll be leveling off a mob with high damage special, as luck would it you or the mages will one day get it. Don't say I didn't warn you, that's all. I don't wish this to happen, but someone help the poor thfs on your sever, you've probably talked them down so much to other jobs.

Phr0st, I'm in some doubt there but maybe you could change that.

1. did the ninja use shurikens? You failed to mention this and my next question.
2. How much did you hold back at the beginning? Surely you weren't turned on the berserk,last, and soul. I could however believe you used them at the end as you said you did without hate turning instantly.

Why do I have doubt about this? During low 40s when I partied with a good drk, pretty good pld, the drk could turn hate midway in the fight with soul,last,berserk used. By midway, a pld(The king of hate) should have well stacked hate by then. Appartently my SATAs which were averaging 400ish(keep in mind lower 40s on soldiers) at the time weren't enough.

This was before I made some upgrades, +19dex,+16agi,+6 attack(only during non SATA times). since then I made some upgrades, now +21dex,+16agi,+10attack on SATA, +16 on normal hits. I can't wait to see how I fare against beetles. What I seem to have to xp on alot now, but I've hit 550+350ish on INC fly...on enpi>viper. I bet I could break 1000 now on a fly. How do I suck? Sucky people simply don't farm for that kind of setup, they are satisfied with outdated equipment, no food, etc, or that medicore average weapon/armor crap. And there are very few statics at my level. I have some people in mind in my LS though.

Amuse me, provide an arguement longer than a few sentences claiming I suck, I can handle a civilized debate so please give one.

Good argument though.

[Ghostraven]

it's all about skills and what you are fighting. a good nin will know how to generate hate quickly and have no hate loss. The thf must not know what they are doing if you are getting hate right after sneak/trick on the nin.

[Malleus]

Granted, I was in a low lvl pt in bubu last night, but w/both a pld and a nin in the pt, we ordered the nin to stop trying to tank. The pld held the hate superbly, with myself (drk) and a blm in there.

This might change later, and it might be due to the player, but so far, our pld rules the roost.

[Jaggywaggy]

Granted, I was in a low lvl pt in bubu last night

I see now, that's why you're having so much trouble, it's a level low party. Ninja spells then don't help for jack at hate keeping. I xp in dunes and korr tunnel but I've farmed in bub a few times so I know the mobs. Jobs through dunes-6 bub and maze-0. But if it's anything like dunes parties, at least most of them, tanks will have trouble holding hate, especially with jobs like blm and ranger if they aren't being very conservative.

Even plds I've partied with at that level have trouble "sometimes" since they don't have the mp for the length of the fight.

What I'd recommand is some extermely successful things I've tried in dunes. I'll list in steps so it's easier to understand.

1. Get a blink tank, obviously since the whole post is about ninja's keeping hate.

2. Get a 2nd voker, this can be warrior,pld, DD/war, or best yet, a 2nd blink tank.

If you have ninja and your 2nd voker is anything but ninja I find this most effective.

Ninja casts utsusemi after previous battle, and the battle begins. After losing 2 shadows they recast Ichi. Once that ninja takes damage or if the voker is not some lazy bastard and counts shadows, they voke onto themselves. This is effective because it lets the ninja recsat utsusemi with ease and while no utsusemi is in action, someone with better defense is taking the damage. A simple provoke should last long enough to get use out of the utsusemis. Once you can provoke and grab hate back, since that's more than enough often at these levels, better yet, WS>provoke.

If you can find another blink tank though this is better, more dependable with bard IMO. However getting 2 blinks tank and a bard is not quite easy, you need to know and level with someone.
When one loses all 6 shadows, the other vokes, and recasts after 2 shadows lost etc. This eleminates the need for extras to keep hate and keeps damage to 0 if they switch it. Although I still used Huton to weaken mob vs ice more so for blms 17 post.

Ninja is extermely unstable as the only voker at low levels, not dependable. If this is the case of your party, you need someone landing slow and paralyze for best results, this creates higher chance for ninjas to recast utsusemi while being attacked.I've had to do this before...it requires perfect timing, much like I'd imagine a pld casting high level Cures. Doing so is by all means possible with mages working well with the ninja and if the ninja has knowlegde and timing.

ibroyles you just had to point that out, heh, better? I tried.

[Malleus]

Personally, tho, our LS and st pt aren't lookin for our NIN to tank. Too much money, PLD are just as good, better if you take into consideration the xp/gil cost.

He will be our back up voker, most likely, but not our main. Truthfully, it doesn't seem like NIN were built to tank, but can be MADE into tankers if you're willing to pay the price. That's cool, too, we just wouldn't ask ours to pay that price. Maybe when we're rolling in the gil, or when we wanna mess around.

But, I will keep posting as our lvls increase and see what happens.

[Jaggywaggy]

Well it's too much gil for some people. I find it costs 4-5k per level in dunes, it's all about preference. I think it's worth it though but not if you're on a serious budget. You're right though, you don't need ninja to have awsome results, you need to pay more attention to the backline though.

Also that ninja,brd,ninja + 3 more. Well 3 of us, the ninja,the brd, and the warrior(acting as DD using berserk) are in the same LS, we know how to work together. In dunes finding the right player can be rather tough, it simply requires some luck. Recruit people with subs for best results on average. And I'd highly recommand against having a war/no sub be your tank, this is the most critical position IMO. That extra hp,vit,agi,dex, and experience is extermely importent in these teenish parties.

I have war/sub, ninja, pld,sam tank during these levels, and use warriors without subs(if no other DD are available) as DD with berserk. When constructing a low level party, throwing aside higher level knowledge is sometimes good.

[ibroyles]

Originally posted by Jaggywaggy
ibroyles you just had to point that out, heh, better? I tried.

[Baramunk]

Re: NIN tanks, what am i doing wrong?

Originally posted by Zafron
Alright, I have recently been having bad experiences with NIN tanks. It seems every group i am ever in with one i find myself wishing we had PLD. Ive heard in numerous places that NINs make incredible tanks, but i just don't see it.

The long and the short of it is aggro holding. I find myself having to hold back significantly more with NIN than with PLD. Sometimes i can't even use berserk even with a THF in the group.

Having not played the job myself i really don't know whats going on. So if someone could share their experience i would greatly appreciate it.

Simply put, there are more bad tanks than good. Whether it's a NIN, PLD, WAR, or even MNK tanking, whatever job it is, there are good and bad players as everyone knows. And what it comes down to when holding hate, is not the job you play, but your experience playing it and your skill.

On the subject of NIN vs. PLD:
I've partied with my share of both types of tanks, and I've always come to the conclusion that PLD can hold hate better than NIN. I've never seen a NIN spam Shuriken however, so I have a feeling that if one did, that would greatly increase their chances of holding hate. I've also seen a NIN keep hate without a THF although it was the crappiest party set-up I've ever been in. As a 60drk/30war I static with a PLD and even with a PLD tanking I will, at times, pull the mob off of the PLD. I ALWAYS have Berserk up when I can, always use Last Resort for a WS when it's up, and use Souleater(although it depends on the current situation) when the mob's HP is at around 60 or 50%. I also use Absorb spells, Drain/Aspir, and(since I've been fighting goblins for the past couple of levels) Stun quite often. My base attack is at 299 and my accuracy is +33. I STILL don't pull the mob off the PLD normally, except on some occasions when I'll use Guillotine and hit for 400-600+ damage . In terms of exp/hour we're always pulling in 4-5k an hour, which by most people's standards is good. In our most recent party, we had a THF SA/TA+Dancing Edge off of the RDM constantly, at the end of a skillchain, and the PLD was almost always keeping hate.

I'm not going to make it seem like I static with some God-like PLD because he DOES lose hate at times as every tank does, but otherwise what I've mentioned is exactly how things go when we're leveling. No offense to the NIN class and those who play it, but in my opinion a NIN could never hold hate off of all that. UNLESS they have a THF to SA/TA off of them, but that would require a melee like DRK, who is already gathering an extreme amount of hate during battle, to either provoke or somehow focus the attention of the mob onto them right at the beginning of battle. Once that happens the melee is already bound to gather the mob's attention more often during the fight, and therefore be less productive when they have to turn their back to the mob. How NIN parties are said to gain so much more exp/hour than other parties(something I hear constantly from people) is beyond me, because someone is always having to heal the DD who can't even face the mob all the time >_<. So unless a party with a NIN outdoes 5k/hour exp, it's the same exact thing as partying with a PLD exp-wise, except with a hell of a lot more stress for the DD's. And in my opinion 5k/hour exp+having lots of fun and screwing around > 6k/hour exp with plenty of stress on the damage dealers.

On another note, in my parties(I static with a PLD, RDM, and WHM, we pick up 2 randoms) we never have downtime, never, unless we get a link or two, but even then we don't often have to rest more than ~30 seconds to get back up and running. Therefore a party with a PLD can have just as little downtime as one with a NIN.

NIN may be able to take absolutely no damage, but if I have to face my back to the mob after gaining too much hate, doing something I could easily do with a PLD tanking, I'd rather party with a PLD. NINs seem to be the one job all DRKs I've talked to don't want to party with, IF the NIN is tanking which 9/10 times they do. In essence a NIN could tank just as well as a PLD, but the only way I see this happening is if the NIN spams Shuriken(something most NIN aren't willing to invest in), and has a THF. Perhaps people who say NIN can tank really well have partied with horrible damage dealers. What happens when a WHM has to use DS+CuragaIII after a gob spams 3 bomb tosses in a row? Can a NIN use Cover? I think not(By the way, I've seen that happen in my party, so don't say that that situation would never arise). Also, can a NIN counter a WHM's Benediction? Only thing that I've seen able to take hate back is a PLD's Invincible, and that's if the PLD loses hate in the first place(And yes I've seen PLD keep hate off of Bene). So please, someone explain to me why I would rather have a NIN tanking in my party rather than a PLD tank?

[Lythe]

Why write so much O.O!

Nin Rng War Blm Whm Brd was the PT I was in as a Brd 59-61.

War does about the same damage as a Drk.

Nin held aggro from beginning to end.

Even when the War did Raging rush for 500-600, the aggro still held on the Nin, only after the Sidewinder 1000-1200 did the aggro lose + the 500 MB from the Blm.

We got a 300 exp chain 5 on Big Bird in Valley of Sorrow (before the ninja dinged to 61).

Could we have done that with a Pld? Yes, but it's a lot safer with a good Nin =D

[kumaeru]

Actually I think Maxim uhh... Fat.... got it right. pre 65 it's almost needed to have a Thf for Nin tanks. HOWEVER.. there are still some Nins that can hold a decent amount of hate and may not need Thf in PT below 65. ie. all the +enmity equipment. Eris Earrings, Mermaid ring etc.


Actually at 65+ you can have Nin, Nin, Drk/thf, Drk/thf, Smn, Rdm PT and still do amazing. granted would prefer Smn would have Fenrir for Accuracy/Evasion up for Drks and Nins. This type of PT can easily get 4000-4500+ exp an hour.

Basically there are two types of PT's.

PTs that look to go as fast as possible and get high chains and lowering the healers mp until the PT cant continue. (This usually ends up being PT where main tank is Pld)

And the PT's that still go fairly fast but require less healing and keep going and going and going with almost no stopping at all.. except when all monsters are killed. (these are usually the Nin tank PT's)

[Malleus]

K, we gained a few lvls last night and our PLD was still rocking the hate holding. The nin would lose it quickly and our PLD would have to start tanking (they would swap between fights) or the NIN would lose too much health and the PLD would have to tank.

I wonder what SE's original plan for NIN was before it was tank-jacked? Each class tends to have a niche, right? What was the NIN niche before players began to see it as a tanking class? It appears to be more of a rdm on steriods, than a tank. Most of its abilities are geared towards enfeebling, and only the Utsu's lend themselves towards 'tanking'.

Any NIN's on here play something other than a tank?

[Kesai]

Originally posted by Malleus
K, we gained a few lvls last night and our PLD was still rocking the hate holding. The nin would lose it quickly and our PLD would have to start tanking (they would swap between fights) or the NIN would lose too much health and the PLD would have to tank.

I wonder what SE's original plan for NIN was before it was tank-jacked? Each class tends to have a niche, right? What was the NIN niche before players began to see it as a tanking class? It appears to be more of a rdm on steriods, than a tank. Most of its abilities are geared towards enfeebling, and only the Utsu's lend themselves towards 'tanking'.

Any NIN's on here play something other than a tank?

Pre 37 since you have pld + nin in your PT best way to do it is to have nin cast blink before pull. When the pull comes in nin vokes counts 2 shadows and recasts blink, while blink is recasting the last shadow will either be over written or taken away by mob. Once all 6 shadows are gone PLD vokes (PLD should keep an eye on NIN's health..once NIN takes a hit then obviously shadows are gone).
NIN will then recast utsusemi when possible and voke off PLD.

At 37 when NIN gets utsusemi: ni then things will change alot

Oh my static consists of nin/war, drk/war, rng/nin, brd/whm, rdm/whm, blm/whm

I don't know if you drks are trying to stack up LR + SE right before ws or what to rip hate off the nin, or if your just pt'ing with poorly equipped nin's or what... even pre 37 I usually didn't have trouble holding hate against LR or SE's full duration.

The DRK in my static likes to use berserk for chain #1-3 LR for #4 and SE for #5. He has 2x sniper rings and whatever +ATK +ACC gear is avail. BRD +ACC and +ATK songs always on him, and very rarely will he pull aggro.

P.S. Your nin should have all the + evasion gear he can wear even pre-37 only exception is ochidos kote @ 34 if they can afford it, the extra damage from the kotes help alot with holding hate. +1 katanas are also a good idea. nin is not a cheap job to play.

[Malleus]

See what I mean?

Yea, NIN will be tanking, wait, I uh, ran out of Blinks. Sorry, I can't tank anymore...What do I do now?

Firstly, what's a NIN supposed to b doing when he's not tanking? Second, seems wierd that a 'tank' class needs to continuously use Blink to 'tank' effectively.

I'm the drk, and I hardly use LR, yet. Still pull the hate right off. When you say poorly equipped, you mean not enough Blink? Or just up to date gear? He has all that.

[Kesai]

Originally posted by Malleus
See what I mean?

Yea, NIN will be tanking, wait, I uh, ran out of Blinks. Sorry, I can't tank anymore...What do I do now?

Firstly, what's a NIN supposed to b doing when he's not tanking? Second, seems wierd that a 'tank' class needs to continuously use Blink to 'tank' effectively.

I'm the drk, and I hardly use LR, yet. Still pull the hate right off. When you say poorly equipped, you mean not enough Blink? Or just up to date gear? He has all that.

If the NIN has enough + evasion gear then those 6 shadows will last a long time, the PLD will only have to take the mob for a few hits while Utsusemi: Ichi recasts, as soon as it is finished recasting then the NIN should voke it again, at this point the mob should be near death anyways. This strategy only applies PRE 37.

Equipment pre 37 should be:

2x dodge earrings
2x +agi rings
Emp. Hairpin
Spike neck.
Federation Gi
Kingdom trousers
Federation tekko (Ochidos kote if possible)
Federation khayans
Nomads Mantle
Warriors belt
+1 katanas

After 37 till around AF
Jujitsu Gi
Spirit torque
Fuma Khayans
Survival belt
Bat cape

Another tip: Try not to activiate abilities such as last resort or soul eater until the nin provokes the 2nd time that will allow the nin enough time to build up enough hate.