NIN tanks, what am i doing wrong?

[Zafron]

Alright, I have recently been having bad experiences with NIN tanks. It seems every group i am ever in with one i find myself wishing we had PLD. Ive heard in numerous places that NINs make incredible tanks, but i just don't see it.

The long and the short of it is aggro holding. I find myself having to hold back significantly more with NIN than with PLD. Sometimes i can't even use berserk even with a THF in the group.

Having not played the job myself i really don't know whats going on. So if someone could share their experience i would greatly appreciate it.

[Xephoid]

nins are hard to play

They have less hate holding ability. For a NIN tank party, you really NEED someone with Sneak and trick attack to help him hold hate. So at you level, you need a THF in the party to make it work.

Also, there is a huge difference between a good NIN and a bad NIN. Bad NIN would only cast utsuemi and dodge hits, good NIN does that AND spam ninjistu and shiruken (which help them hold hate a lot more). A good NIN tanking is like watching a freaking fireworks show, and of course cost 20K gil an hour. LOL.

[yzfr6]

ninja tanks fucking own paladins any day of the week. sorry but the NIN cant hold aggro argument, is just false. they can hold aggro damn near as well. im level 58 drk with +31 accuracy so i hit quite a bit and i never find myself having to hold back. i dont use souleater though. our nin tank held hate from a 700 dmg blizzaga 2 mb in terrigan. and the downtime was non existant.

ninjas do not get hit much...therefore their hate does not decrease. whereas a paladin is getting hit for 80-100 hp per round of combant thus his hate against the mob is constantly dwindling and he has to keep casting spells to keep hate. a ninja can generate a lot of hate overtime with provoke and ninjitsu because he isnt taking much damage. but you will have to wait a bit before you can dish out any high damage skills.

and even if you do have to hold off a bit the amount of exp you will get is still more than a PT with a paladin in it.

[ibroyles]

Originally posted by yzfr6
ninja tanks fucking own paladins any day of the week. sorry but the NIN cant hold aggro argument, is just false. they can hold aggro damn near as well. im level 58 drk with +31 accuracy so i hit quite a bit and i never find myself having to hold back. i dont use souleater though. our nin tank held hate from a 700 dmg blizzaga 2 mb in terrigan. and the downtime was non existant.

ninjas do not get hit much...therefore their hate does not decrease. whereas a paladin is getting hit for 80-100 hp per round of combant thus his hate against the mob is constantly dwindling and he has to keep casting spells to keep hate. a ninja can generate a lot of hate overtime with provoke and ninjitsu because he isnt taking much damage. but you will have to wait a bit before you can dish out any high damage skills.

Provoke is more like a "spike" in hate, and it slowly dwindles off by itself over time. Also, the other people in the party, such as DRK, are also building up hate without being hit, so they will still steal the mob with enough good hits. It's not so easy as "nija fcuking pwn," because if a mage has to cast a hardcore spell like curaga or just gets a little trigger happy, a Ninja will not have the tools to get that hate back. A PLD could do so pretty quickly by slapping on a quick Cure III and/or Flash.

[dworkin]

zafron i know what you mean. i have yet to party with a good nin blink tank. there may be some out there that are indeed godly, an yzfr6 just may have seen 1 or 2 of them. but frankly i havent seen it. i sit there in a fight going to red wishing i had a pld tank.


so incase you think this goes wrong. heres the attack. thf pulls a mob an get to were the nin is. i wait til its in provoke range an i grab the mobs attention. the thf will then do his s.a/t.a onto the nin. then the nin will use provoke. right after that. thus mob turns during that time i will refuse to take a swing at the mob. i dont want to generate to much hate at the beginning. thus when i see it turn i then atk. BUT then the problem starts. shortly after that i find the mob has his eyes on me yet again. so i turn my back hoping the nin can take it back. he does. i hit the mob again, an its focus is on me yet again. so the thf seeing this s.a/t.a on the nin again. but by that time im already in the red.


so right after i look. BERSERK 0:00, LAST RESORT 0:00, SOULEATER 0:00, BLOOD WEAPON 00:00. FOOD LEFT 12. so i figure it wasnt a damage spike that caused it. or me triggering a JA that caused it. basically it was normal damage drawing way to much hate. way more then a nin could generate. an this isnt just 1 ninja. this is 5 of them that i have pt with. an it all goes the same way.

really with a pld in the group the play style would be different, then if you had a nin in the group. an yes atleast for me there is a differnce in the game play style. its either time for a nin to go all out, or i really need to tweak how i contribute to a pt with a nin tank.....

[yzfr6]

like i said...i have never had to hold back anything(besdies souleater) to avoid getting hate from a nin tank. i use berserk,chief kabobs, and last resort for weapon skills. the only time i ever get hate is if at the begining of battle double attack activates or i get a critical hit in. i dont know if you actually read everything but a 700 dmg blizzaga 2 is pretty hardcore, in my opinion anyways. so if our nin held hate after that...im sure he can hold hate after a curaga. and yes the blm was casting blizzard 2 throughout the battle before the blizzaga mb. this is all without any thief or thf sub.

anyways i don tknow what the hell is wrong with your ninja if you cant even use berserk while having a thief in your party. maybe he wasnt even using blink? lol. once u pt with a good nin tank you will never want a paladin again. the exp increase far outweighs the larger hate building capability of a paladin. also you wont need a whm because a redmage is all the healing power you would need for a nin tank. that gives you extra spot for another damage dealer or a bard or something. so you have a pt like brd/blm/rdm/drk/nin/mnk instead of whm/blm/rdm/mnk/drk/pld which will deal less damage and have more downtime.

[phr0st]

I agree with R6 here, though I don't think he has to be so harsh about it :D

Ninja tanks on anything other than a monk-type or fast attacking mob (i.e. mandragoras etc, etc) have a wicked damage output capability for a "tank". The problem is, alot of ninjas consider blink and provoke to be their only hate holding tools. That'd be like a paladin who only uses provoke and sentinel to hold aggro, and doesn't use cures or flash. Nins have alot of useful ninjutsu that lower elemental resistances (bigger mb damage <yes, please.>) and make alot of hate. Additionally, ninjas do a fair amount of damage in melee (a little less than a war on pure swings). So it's kind of like a reverse paladin, a tank who uses damage to keep hate instead of cures.

I also agree that there is a WORLD of difference between a good blink tank and a bad one, and it's much easier to be a bad blink tank than a bad pld.

[FattMusiek]

Yup, prior to 65DRK/30THF, you pretty much need a THF in party if a NIN is tanking. If you get aggro just by using Berserk, try using it before the battle starts.

[Jaggywaggy]

so you have a pt like brd/blm/rdm/drk/nin/mnk instead of whm/blm/rdm/mnk/drk/pld which will deal less damage and have more downtime.

I'm sorry but any party that knows what they were doing, would have that extra spot filled with a thf so the other DD could go all out, not yet another high quality DD(blm/rng) so the ninja can lose hate all day.

Since this is a pretty importent point I'll make it stand out a little. A ninja simply will not hold hate without thief unless the damage dealers are "POOR BADLY EQUIPPED NOOBS", or the ninja is spamming shukirens(spelling?). That's right, if your ninja is holding hate and you're going all out without a thf or /thf(post 60), chances are you the damage dealer need to upgrade from that level 26 scythe in crawlers nest, or you have a ninja spending about 20k on your hands per level.

If you have good damage dealing classes and/or pretty good damager dealers but very well equipped, you need a thief. One time I was in a mid 30s party with ninja tank, samurai, and myself the thf/war. I landed SATA 29/30 times unless something really wierd went wrong because these guys did a great job setting up fuidama, they were both intelligent JP players. The ninja didn't use shukirens(again spelling?) but was very well equipped. The samurai had I believe attack up food, mithkabobs or whatever. Something like that and the latest HQ GK for his level, leveled subs of course. In that 1-3 times I missed up starting SATA the samurai actually stole hate from the ninja in which the ninja couldn't get it back until my SATA was ready(about 30 secs because I used before pull).

To me that's proof enough if a ninja had a hard time getting hate from a sam before he even used WS that they need thief or to indeed spend 20k a level for throwing weapons... Don't spread rumors ninja doesn't need thief, or we'll be getting BS parties in which the mage is dying or the drk who thought he was safe an turned on soul,last,etc got killed or last 9/10 of his hp causing massive downtime.

If you want a ninja tank you need a thief, if you want a thief you need someone that makes a great SC with them, two things to consider.

1. Drg,sam,ranger,ninja using their classes weapons can make a distortion SC with thf's viper(talking pre 60 here). Also drk with scythe but not until their 150 ws.

2. If you go ranger, it's like a double edged sword and he should probably be using ninja sub because of utsusemi because the chances he'll pull hate are quite high 1/2 the battles.

A. thf ranger make the most powerful SC in the game at this point, any of range's WSs---> SATA/viper, not to mention so many mobs in the midame are weak to distortion. When both guys start the battle with WS ready they can make the most powerful SC around and make super hate for the ninja. ranger could just do normal shots and do WS to get mob to turn to it without a doubt while that utsusemi is lasting, do SC.

B. If thief and/or ranger doesn't have WS ready SATA alone will sometimes depending on the skill of both the ninja and the ranger not be enough.

IMO only go for ranger if he/she is ranger/ninja and has utsusemi, and the ninja and thief are while known to be good and the thief can hit SC 100/100 times(I haven't missed since low 30s unless mob was turned at last second, look me up quetzalcoatl ).

Also if you get sam, tachi: hobaku --> Blade: teki for a 2ndary Fragmentation SC.

DRKs just don't work well with thief until drk gets vorpal scythe, and this is going to hurt the ability of your ninja to tank. What can you do to help? You can suck up your pride and use a Great sword. Powerslash-->SATA/viper. Or since you have a ninja tank to begin with. 2 backline mages, drk,thf,ninja, and use sam as your 4th melee. You can tachi: enpi --- viper, and do tachi: hobaku for frag, or tachi:enpi ---> spinning scythe for distortion.
But if you get a blm instead, you will need greatsword, or the ninja himself is going to have to SC and you need to hope that doesn't steal hate from WS

[yzfr6]

Originally posted by Jaggywaggy
I'm sorry but any party that knows what they were doing, would have that extra spot filled with a thf so the other DD could go all out, not yet another high quality DD(blm/rng) so the ninja can lose hate all day.

Since this is a pretty importent point I'll make it stand out a little. A ninja simply will not hold hate without thief unless the damage dealers are "POOR BADLY EQUIPPED NOOBS", or the ninja is spamming shukirens(spelling?). That's right, if your ninja is holding hate and you're going all out without a thf or /thf(post 60), chances are you the damage dealer need to upgrade from that level 26 scythe in crawlers nest, or you have a ninja spending about 20k on your hands per level.

If you have good damage dealing classes and/or pretty good damager dealers but very well equipped, you need a thief. One time I was in a mid 30s party with ninja tank, samurai, and myself the thf/war. I landed SATA 29/30 times unless something really wierd went wrong because these guys did a great job setting up fuidama, they were both intelligent JP players. The ninja didn't use shukirens(again spelling?) but was very well equipped. The samurai had I believe attack up food, mithkabobs or whatever. Something like that and the latest HQ GK for his level, leveled subs of course. In that 1-3 times I missed up starting SATA the samurai actually stole hate from the ninja in which the ninja couldn't get it back until my SATA was ready(about 30 secs because I used before pull).

To me that's proof enough if a ninja had a hard time getting hate from a sam before he even used WS that they need thief or to indeed spend 20k a level for throwing weapons... Don't spread rumors ninja doesn't need thief, or we'll be getting BS parties in which the mage is dying or the drk who thought he was safe an turned on soul,last,etc got killed or last 9/10 of his hp causing massive downtime.

lol dude shut up. stop spreading your thief gospel. not every party needs you. a ninja tank does not need you. sorry but at level 58 as a dark knight i have the best possible equipment you can have besides peacock charm and +1 snper rings. so that gives me about 450 attack while using chiefkabob and berserk and +31 accuracy with 84 dmg scythe. our nin tank held hate perfectly throughout most of the battles. sorry that you are so butthurt that every party doesnt want you or need you. we were able to kill monsters literally non stop, fighting 6-7 in a row without rest. we could never get a exp chain #6 or 7 because we didnt kill them fast enough but we did pull them right after chain #5. why dont u actually read what i write anyways? i said i cant use souleater and i really dont care if i cant use it. and our blm never died. sounds like your party is just full of crappy players.

anyways i was just giving an EXAMPLE of a pt with a dmg dealer replacng a whm. its not like i never have thieves in my party, you can actually do some decent damage but get off your high horse like every party in the game is fighting over you to invite.

[Varo]

Yeah sorry, but a party without a THF tricking onto the Nin is going to have some trouble. I've seen it time and time again, it always happens. It's either me or the BLM that rips it off the ninja. They have the potential to be excellent tanks but without the assistance of a THF or THF sub tricking onto them, they definitely falter.

[Jaggywaggy]

lol dude shut up. stop spreading your thief gospel.

Nice you feel the need to be rude, oh and you can stop spreading your DRK "gospel". Oh and yes I've read every post here fully, I never reply in topics in which I don't read absolutely everything.

not every party needs you. a ninja tank does not need you.

This is where you're wrong, no most parties actually don't need thief, but ninja parties, ya that's were you're wrong. When you imply not every party needs a thief yes you're correct, by saying that you're admiting some do yes? Well that "sometimes" situation is with ninjas, and a few warriors depending on the damage dealers.

Try updating your equipment then come back, or if you speak the truth, lucky for you, you found the one of the games best ninjas eversimply put. If a well equipped samurai could peel hate off a JP ninja that knew exactly what they were doing, I'm supposed to believe a well equipped drk using last resort and berserk can't peel? Even at different times.

Obviously you have a ninja using throwing weapons of the latest level or you need to buy some things off the AH. Almost everyone will agree hate control is needed with a ninja tank until post 70 if the ninja is extermely good, I've done my research. This is repeating some points but you didn't directly deal with them so I feel a need to repeat.

Also a party with ninja tank and no thief basiclly rule out the inviting of the games highest physical damage dealer, the ranger. Whom with thief do the best SC in the game without question pre 60. Unless of course you enjoy having your ranger hold back.

And if you have to hold back at the start of the battle while they build hate, already you're greatly hurting your own DOT. You would be better off with a pld in that setup who will build hate faster so you can start pounding away asap for shorter battles. But since you have no respect for my job I'll clearify, with a 300-550 SATA(roughly at my level this is my range, 500-900 with SC with samurai or ranger) followed by a provoke, you can instantly go all out for a shorter battle. Waiting halfway through the battle until you start going all out? They'd be better off with a mnk or drg who damages over time for less hate rather than you doing it in spikes in that case. Is this to say they're better than drk? Absolutely not, I prefer drk myself+samurai with a ninja tank.

Also if you find yourself waiting for the ninja to build great deals of hate so you can go all out, I'd rather have a blm because they can do more damage in a short period of time by nuking nonstop. Of course this is assuming both jobs wait a long time before going all out which a hate controller solves.

At least I've respect for other jobs, I see the full usefulness of drk post 66, with ability to close light and dark SC for awsome damage. Whenever when they don't have tp, their SATA alone is going to be damn weak since SA is nerfed to a crit and their TA is just a damage hate transfer, not multiplier in damage. And you got mnk/thf with less flexibilty but can still get the job done vs some mobs. However thief/X is always near the top or just outside it in SATA+ws, more dependable. But that's starting to get off-topic, I'll continue to my main points.

MY sum up conclusion, it's one of the following as to why you can go all out minus soul eater.

1. You need new a new GSD/scythe or need to invest in food.
2. Your ninjas are amoung the best ever
3. You're waiting a good deal into the battle before you start even doing damaging, completely ruining one of the points to get a drk, like I said earlier, if this is the case...They'd be better with a job that doesn't damage so much at once and more over time. Ninja is a tank that on its own can't build hate very fast, it's overtime from vokes+not being hit mostly, and I also play ninja so i think I know from experience.

Ninja need to spend a couple thousand K a level excluding utsusemi, need hate control, or just really bad damage dealers they really don't need to worry about because their "All out" would just suck to keep hate without hate control, simple as that.

Argue with that, not with "Shut up".

[yzfr6]

well then you are obviously a shitty ninja. that is all. read my previous post before u respond. and i did not have to wait to attack for the ninja to build hate. our ninja did not throw things at all...he just used ninjitsu a lot. im sorry u suck at ninja and ur ninja parties sucked. maybe it has something to do with u as a player? and maybe the ninjas i party with are better than most...lucky for me, sucks for you. btw i should add i DID get hit once in awhile...but overall the ninja held hate and could regain it quickly. a simple ninjutsu was usually enough to regain hate. maybe you thought i was saying i never got hit but i was just saying that ninjas can hold hate very well and can regain hate very quickly if needed. either way it doesnt matter becuase exp with ninja tank >>>> exp with pld.

[phr0st]

Originally posted by Jaggywaggy
I'm sorry but any party that knows what they were doing, would have that extra spot filled with a thf so the other DD could go all out, not yet another high quality DD(blm/rng) so the ninja can lose hate all day.

Since this is a pretty importent point I'll make it stand out a little. A ninja simply will not hold hate without thief unless the damage dealers are "POOR BADLY EQUIPPED NOOBS", or the ninja is spamming shukirens(spelling?). That's right, if your ninja is holding hate and you're going all out without a thf or /thf(post 60), chances are you the damage dealer need to upgrade from that level 26 scythe in crawlers nest, or you have a ninja spending about 20k on your hands per level.

This is incorrect. Last night in cape terrigan i had pt with rdm/whm/blm rng/nin/drk..

I, being the dark, was equipped as follows:

main : Vassago's scythe
head: Valk. mask
body: RK
legs: RK
boots: AF
Hands: AF (sold RK for vassago's scythe)
Neck: RG Collar
Rings: Snipers X2
Ear: Assault x 1 spike x 1

i don't know how much better my equip could be. I guess i could have a peacock charm. At any rate, we were setting up a particularly brutal SC. Sidewinder >> Vorpal>> MB Blizzaga II.

occasionally after the MB hit, the mob would turn onto the BLM for about 1-2 hits tops until Nin's voke timer was up or until he could get off a good ninjutsu attack (unless there was some distance between us and the mob, in which case I'd cast stun, and the mob would sit in place) But even most plds I've pted with lose aggro more than the nin did.

I used souleater at the end of chains, no problem. He was as good if not better than even the best plds I play with. And my usual PLD is a rank 10 lvl 75 NA bard alt, so it's not like he doesn't know the game.

At any rate, I don't buy the "nin has to have thief" argument, I just think alot of the good thiefs are already in statics, and pickups are notoriously bad.

[Sorath]

A good NIN tanking is like watching a freaking fireworks show, and of course cost 20K gil an hour. LOL.

So true, I'm currently playing my ninja subjob , keeping constant utsusemi:ichi on (you know, utsusemi after battle ends, pull comes, 2nd shadow fades and prepare a 2nx utsusemi for 6 blinks opening total) , spamming kurayami as needed for that blind hate, hyoton when i can spare an MB for the many Distortion renkeis at this level, so on so forth. And throwing them shurikens..

It costs a helluva lot, but it also enables the PT to really go all out with much less downtime, if any ^^

I guess it would just be wise in the late50s and 60s when the xp TNL goes up alot, to start paying attention to which ninjas are really good before inviting them