Doubting DRK

[truong]

Deodorant, you're a retard who STILL haven't contributed ANYTHING to this thread other than to assume like the moron you are that we all don't know how SA/TA attack works. Where in my post did it give your impression that I do not know how SA/TA works? All I've said is that 225 WS get a great damage boost from SA (because the majority of 225 WS tend to be either 1 or 2 POWERFUL hits, which stacks well with SA. I knew this. Anyone above level 60 knows this.) So I ask, Deodorant: Why the f*** did you feel the need to waste this site's bandwidth with your garbage? Thank you. Stop posting in this thread, for you've contributed exactly jack and sh*t. Get this in your head: YOU. DID. NOT. MAKE. ANY. POINT.

As for moodnar: I tried reading your post but couldn't decipher the gibberish other than a vague example of how DoT works. I've already made several post and explained in detail how DRK/THF does more damage than MNK/ANYTHING in an EXPERIENCE POINT PT NOT PARSER (EXP PT BEING A KEY POINT, as some of you idiotic MNK fanboys continue to bring up the parser as your desperate attempt to prove me wrong when I've clearly stated in my post MNK WILL beat DRK in a parser test.)

Not only do you MNK fanboys lack common sense, you also lack reading comprehension.

[Xephoid]

just a little correction

Originally posted by modnar
Not ONLY Double Attack or anything of the sort. Monks main advantage comes from the "MARTIAL ARTS" skill that decreases delay between our attacks. This skill is independent of the subjob and is what takes the Monk's damage output over. The Warrior subjob is what takes it REALY OVER!

Martial arts helps, but not as much as you think. At 71, I party with monks. Their delay (when not double attacking) is still not much faster than my swing with zweighthander +1. Given that my dealy is 443. Their delay must be around 400-440 ish as well. It is significantly faster than scythe though, with 500+ delay. But comparing h2h vs greatsword, they are only a tiny bit faster, but not by much at all, they get maybe 1 extra round of attack per battle. It's mainly the double attack that make them look fast: punch punch punch punch.... by the time animation is done, it's almost time for the next punches. Heh.

[2.0]

Then why the hell does it take so damn long for the dark knight to build tp.

[Ednoon]

why? because weapon delay + misses and THF sub.

[Xephoid]

THF sub and effect of miss on high dealy weapon

Originally posted by 2.0
Then why the hell does it take so damn long for the dark knight to build tp.

THF sub sucks for TP gain. You get no double attack. SATA adds additional dealy of a swing.

DRK is also expected to cast couple of spells to help the PT and ourselves, that further delays our TP.

And then there is the effect of misses on high delay weapons. THF misses 4 times in a roll with a dagger, 10 seconds with 0 tp gain, no big deal. DRK misses 4 times in a roll with a scythe, 30 seconds with no TP gain. Not only does that make people get the false impression that DRK has bad accuracy when it really isn't bad % wise, but it as an actual impact on skill chain timing unlike low delay weapons.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by truong

(Random Animal Noises)

Hoho, Mr Internet Tough Guy in the house!

I'm not gonna even bother arguing with you, because despite you complaining about mnk's not having reading comprehension, your own comprehension is extremely lacking.

I noted that mnk's have provided proof of mnk outdamaging drk (admittedly, a handful of parser logs over a few levels isn't conclusive at all), what proof have you drk's given? I have yet to see a single bit of evidence from the drk camp.

By the way, this is only the third time I've said this, and you haven't given any satisfactory response. Parser tests show exactly how much total damage somebody does in a fight, everything included, so your poor attempts at dismissing those logs make your arguments sound very weak.

Furthermore, you're assuming everybody reading this is 60+. The thread starter is lvl 25, so just because you know how sa+ta works, doesn't mean everyone else reading the thread does too.

Finally, it's extremely amusing to say that I'm supposedly "wasting bandwith with my garbage," when you yourself decided to write a three paragraph, 10 line post that has mostly nothing to do with the topic either. Oh, just in case you didn't know, there's a word that describes you: a hypocrite. Linked just in case you can't comprehend what it means.

[Lord Diablos]

Alright guys chill on the flaming.

[Xephoid]

problem is

Originally posted by Deodorant


I noted that mnk's have provided proof of mnk outdamaging drk (admittedly, a handful of parser logs over a few levels isn't conclusive at all), what proof have you drk's given? I have yet to see a single bit of evidence from the drk camp.

The problem here is that you'll never find a MNK/WAR and DRK/WAR in the same party at any level that matters, meaning 60+.

When you put a DRK and MNK together in a PT post 65. This happens:

(1) MNK sub /WAR. DRK sub /THF. This is how an exp party works. One sacrifice damage ability to help control hate, the other maximize damage using /war sub.

(2) in a MNK/WAR + DRK/THF party, 99% of the time you are heading off to fight bones. Well, DRK is at a natural disadvantage on these. Not only are we subbing THF, we are fighting something that MNK has a bonus to.

(3) MNK will never sub /THF unless they are with another monk. That's again, in a MNK/WAR + MNK/THF bone party. /THF sub gimps monk way more than it gimps DRK (same as /WAR sub benefit mnk way more than DRK). And since you got 2 DD in the party, there isn't room for a DRK to be there and parsed against.

This is why the only parse you see comparing MNK and DRK are those of MNK/WAR vs DRK/WAR before Lv 60, when subbing /THF is a waste of party space. And as I pointed out earlier, /WAR sub benefits MNK way more than just about any job since h2h is counted as 2 attacks for double attack probability, and with berserk adding to all those extra attacks, it tips the scale when comparing MNK/WAR vs DRK/WAR.

And if trying to compare MNK/WAR damage to DRK/THF, then everyone can see that's just not logical apple to apple comparison.

Since the only really viable combo for DRK at levels that matter is the /THF sub, then you must do this:

(1) make the monk sub /THF.
(2) relieve the DRK of any responsiblity of controlling hate
(3) relieve the DRK of any responsibility of casting spells.

Then we can make a comparsion. But I doubt any party will agree to that.

[Deodorant]

Well, in a lvl 66+ non-bone party with mnk/war and drk/thf, who does more total damage? From the tone of your post it seems that mnk wins, but you also have people like truong who insist that the added fuidama dmg + renkei effect is more than enough to put drk on top of the dmg ladder ... so who's right, and who's wrong?

Another thing I've noticed is that generally, all mnk's will say that mnk > drk regardless of circumstance, however drk's tend to be divided: there are some of you who say "mnk dmg > drk dmg, but drk has XY more skills/abilities." Just an ovservation

Also, I see nothing wrong in comparing apples with oranges ... I personally like oranges more than apples, because its taste is more palatable to me

Finally, I doubt I'll be posting anymore unless truong decides to play e-thug and flame me again

[Izual]

Originally posted by Deodorant
Well, in a lvl 66+ non-bone party with mnk/war and drk/thf, who does more total damage? From the tone of your post it seems that mnk wins, but you also have people like truong who insist that the added fuidama dmg + renkei effect is more than enough to put drk on top of the dmg ladder ... so who's right, and who's wrong?

In that case the mnk would almost certainly do more damage unless you count the skillchain damage as part of the drk's output, which really wouldn't make much sense. Likewise, if you switched the roles and had a mnk/thf + drk/war group, the drk would almost certainly win in total damage (unless fighting bones). See a pattern here? Warrior sub is just more damaging in general, that's why Xephoid said this isn't a good comparison. The mnk/war may do more total damage, but the /thf melee is still necessary for the group to function.

As for the mnk/war v. drk/war argument...I have no idea which class would win and by how much, but I really, honestly don't care.

[Kailo]

I absolutely agree with Kujo on the subject. I'm not sure if you could tell from my previous posts, but I couldn't care less about who does the most raw damage. I don't know how many times I have to say this (listen up Truong), but each job has it's role. There is no point in arguing MNK > DRK or DRK > MNK in damage. In fact, if you really wanted to get technical you could say DRK do the most damage of any melee strictly because of their Absorb-XXX spells. They would be the reason for not only boosting their own damage output, but also the damage output of every other DD in the PT. Even still, you could say that without the other DDs in the PT DRKs Absorb-XXX spells would not have the same drastic effect, so therefore all credit cannot go to the DRK alone. The fact of the matter is that both classes are great to have. Each have their roles, and if done right, each are extremely usefull in a PT. DRKs like Truong should be friends with their fellow DDs, not create arguments over who is more uber/l33t/best/most helpful in various PT situations. So maybe instead of flaming you can put your energy to good use and brush up on your own game. Prove you are the better player in game, not the better class on a board.

[genei-jin]

Truong is right... DRK/THF's SC ender blows away DoT. Imagine this... you just killed the 5th mob for chain #4... and you pull #5 as fast as possible... who would you want to end the SC? DRK/THF. No question about it, they can do up to 50% of a VT-IT mob's HP with their SC and safely put it on a tank or subtank allowing the BLM to finish off the mob (if it isn't finished off already) plus allowing themselves to keep Souleater on and do 300 dmg per swing afterwards. That's the whole point Truong is trying to make. 2k-3k damage in one hit owns DoT in xp PT. Chain #5 (Can I have it?)

[truong]

lol it's been close to a month and only one person here understood my point (genei-jin). I don't give a shit about damage parsers. In an experience pt after 65, DRK/THF > MNK/anything. Dear god I stress the "experience pt" part. Not have a DRK/THF and a MNK/WAR swing away at Too Weak mobs with zero team dynamics, SC, MB, to come up with damage parsers.

And Deodorant, you're STILL a moron for not contributing anything to this thread. What part of EXPERIENCE POINT PTS do you not understand? People in Final Fantasy 11 join EXPERIENCE POINT PTs to get EXPERIENCE POINTS FAST. We don't make PTs, throw out SC, team chemistry, team dynamics, magic burst, hate management, overall job responsibility so we can come up with a meaningless damage parser.

[Deodorant]

[some slight editing]:

Dear truong:

You're the moron.

You say skillchain damage exceeds DoT damage. Where is the fucking proof? Do you just expect me to believe you 100% just because you say so?

Damage parsers logs are one form of proving how much damage a person contributes. And if you parse an EXPERIENCE POINT PT as you so graciously capitalized (were we ever talking about anything else?), guess what, that proves how much damage each person did in that exp PT. Oh no a revelation! If you can't understand that and still insist that damage parsers are 'meaningless,' then you will throw away all my doubts that you are, in fact, a few aces short of a full deck.

(And yes, parsers are not the only form, nor are they necessarily the best form of proving who indeed does more damage, but so far they're the only form of proof that either the mnk or the drk camp has given).

To summarize what I'm saying to you in one sentence (seeing as you have trouble comprehending any paragraph longer than 10 words), here it is:

Prove it or Shut The Fuck Up

To everyone else (who actually has a brain):

Admittedly, drk/thf (or drk/whatever) does have a huge skillchain damage, and on fights that include renkei I am inclined to believe that indeed they do the most damage for that fight. However typically you don't renkei every fight; many parties will renkei on #1/#3/#5 and 'save' TP on #0/#2/#4 (just an arbitrary example). So what I'd imagine is, drk > mnk on 1/3/5, and mnk > drk on 0/2/4. Overall however, who does the most damage?

[truong]

LOL calm down, loser. This is only the net. Don't let it affect you personally. Moron.

And I've already given more than enough proof. You just can't read or lacking reading comprehension. But since you seem have to missed it the first 3 times that I've given more than enough proofs, I'll do it again one more time. Just for "special" people like you.

Yes, it maybe be true that DRK does more damage than MNK on chains 1, 3 and 5. MNK do more on 0, 2 and 4 (wow, I'll agree with you, because this will shut your moronic mouth up once and for all). BUT, I'm willing to to say that, as a whole, counting all 5 chains, the DRK DID MORE DAMAGE THAN THE MNK. A LOT MORE. In the chains that the MNK DOES do more damage(0, 2 and 4), it's probably upwards of 300 more damage AT BEST. I'll be generous and say Double Attack and Kick activated more than usual (VERY generous). Again, so the MNK does 300 more damage in 0, 2 and 4. 300 times 3. Let's add that up. In total, that's roughly 900 more damage the MNK did more than DRK in chains 0, 2 and 4 together. Keep in mind, these chains are without SC.

Now we get to the DRK. They, according to you, typically SC in chains 1, 3 and 5. SA/TA+Cross Reaper/Spinning Slash typically does 700-1000 plus another 700 to upwards of 1300+ in Burst damage. So let's roughly estimate it. Again, I'll be generous to the DRK and round it off both figures. On average, the DRK's SC damage does 700+1000. That's 1700. 1700 x 3 = 5100. Add to the the fact that the DRK can throw in their own MB for another, say, 150 points of damage in burst. 150 x 3. That's another 450 points of damage. So in total, that's 5550. THAT'S FIVE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED AND FIFTY POINTS OF DAMAGE FOR MORONS WHO OUT THERE WHO CAN'T COMPREHEND NUMBERS.

But WAIT! I'm not done. That's JUST the DRK'S SC damage. How can we possibly forget the greatness that is Soul Eater? I mean, after putting 1700 points of damage to the tank, hate would be the last thing a DRK has to worry about, so he can go wild with the Soul Eater. Activate Soul Eater. At level 65+, a DRK can easily do upwards of 300 damage per attack when SE is on. a GS wielding DRK can do about 4 swings before SE is gone. And assuming you have an intelligent healer who knows that SE's damage is directly based on your HP, he'll constantly keep your HP up high, so that your SE does more damage. 300 per swing. Times that by 4 and you have 1200. I can go overboard and say that a DRK can throw in 2 SE for every 5 chain. But I wont, because that's stupid and causes unnecessary healing and hurts the team as a whole. So instead of 2400 damage from SE, it'll just be 1200.

So let's add that up shall we. 1200 + 5550 = 6750. Here, I'll make it even simpler for you, Deodorant, seeing as you're quite slow.

MNK, in chains 0, 2 and 4, did 900 more points of damage than the DRK.

DRK, in chains 1, 3 and 5 did 6750 more points of damage than the MNK.

Now let's have some fun and subtract these figures.

6750 subract 900 = 5850. I'll subtract another 900 points of damage in favor of the MNK because, even though the DRK did more damage from SC in chains 1, 3 and 5, the MNK still do more damage than the DRK in terms of regular attacks. So 5850 subtract another 900 and we come to the final number of 4950. Let's round this up and say 5000.

So, to conclude this up, I'll even type it in all caps so hopefully your eyes don't fail you, Deodorant. IN FIVE CHAINS, THE DRK/THF DID AN ESTIMATED 5000 MORE DAMAGE THAN A MNK/WAR IN AN EXPERIENCE POINT PT.

There, further proof with accurate numbers. You cannot deny anything that I've said in this post. All the numbers are as accurate as can be.

So, yes, MNK MAY have higher DOT than a DRK, but DOT is irrelevent in an EXPERIENCE POINT PT, because, due to the nature of how chains work and the limited amount of time we have to make 5 chains possible, LARGE BURST OF DAMAGE (SC+MB) IS MUCH MORE DESIRABLE. This is the same reason THFs are loved so much. Though they do horrendous damage from their regular attacks, they more than make up for it with SA/TA+Viper Bite/Dancing Edge/Shark Bite plus another 1k damage from the BLM's MB. DRK/THF is basically a THF on steroids with their much higher regular attack damage, ability to MB, and of course, SE.

And I highly, HIGHLY doubt that parser tests are done in experience point pts. Because if they did, they'd have to make it accurate, and take in account of a job's role/responsibility, SC, MB, hate issues, downtime, etc, etc. Because if they did take these into account, they'd come to the same conclusion as my post. DRK/THF > MNK/WAR in 5 chains post 60.

Like I said, these parser tests were most likely done with each job's optimum REGULAR ATTACK job combo (DRK/WAR and MNK/WAR) and had them swing away at some random mob for a long, long period of time without ever SCing or MBing. Of course the RNG and BLM are going to come out on top. These aren't set in EXPERIENCE POINT PT situations. They don't have to worry about gathering hate and just generally screwing up the the pt. The RNG could Sidewinder and Barrage whenever it was available, and the BLM would nuke til the sun comes up. Parser tests don't count and are not accurate measure of what a job does in an exp pt.

And that's that. I've done more than enough to proof my point. Deodorant, I'd love to hear your counter-points, but you never had any to begin with. You're a waste of bandwidth. You have neither a MNK or a DRK as your job. You know nothing. You've blatantly ignored Izual and Genei-jin's post, which both bring up excellent points. And notice you're the only one still carrying on this debate with me? Notice there aren't any MNKs up in here trying to prove me wrong? Because they can't. You, on the other hand, are arguing not for the sake of proving anything, but to keep up your silly little online ego because I've made you look like the moron you are. I'm done with you. OWNED!!!!111!111!11

Oh yeah. MORON.