Doubting DRK

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by truong

(The Baying of a Farmyard Animal)

You don't make yourself sound very smart either. Sneak attack when subbed does not add an attack modifier per se. What it does is provide a critical attack, whether WS or no-WS, which is what increases damage. But I'm sure you aren't clueless, and knew that already!

In contrast, sneak attack as main job gets a fairly huge damage boost, which is why thf's who hit for 30 dmg can pull off a 300 dmg sneak attack.

Also, I find it rather interesting that I've seen a fair number of damage parses that show mnk > drk, but not a single one that shows drk > mnk. Personally I don't know which is better (I play with damage logs off), nor do I really care, but to a neutral bystander I must say that overall mnk's seem to be more convincing ... *shrug*

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Deodorant
You don't make yourself sound very smart either. Sneak attack when subbed does not add an attack modifier per se. What it does is provide a critical attack, whether WS or no-WS, which is what increases damage. But I'm sure you aren't clueless, and knew that already!

In contrast, sneak attack as main job gets a fairly huge damage boost, which is why thf's who hit for 30 dmg can pull off a 300 dmg sneak attack.

Exactly. I was a little unclear on this, apparently someone who ought to have known better (I mean, he has one job at a high level, he must know everything there is to know about the game, right? It's not like people who level all the time can reach high levels and still be ignorant gimps - I'm sure there aren't any of those on your server.) managed to misunderstand. Thanks for clarifying.

IIRC, any physical WS can crit without SA although the chance is low for most (especially for elvaan DRK with their doubly crappy dex). Some WS are designed to crit and will do it fairly often (power slash comes to mind - a WS DRKs are often called on to use because it opens distortion and there aren't many DRG around these days. That is, until it gets replaced by vorpal scythe, but there are a lot of levels before vorpal scythe). The log doesn't display a special message but you can tell from the damage.

But the main point remains unchanged - sub SA/TA is not godly. It's useful primarily for the hate transferring function. Ultimately it makes little difference whether you do 300 or 500 WS damage - either way the mages burst for a combined 1200 (blm blm rdm backline is sick if you're fighting something with low damage output like beetles and can get away with it). The strength of the skillchain damage doesn't affect magic bursts.

Also, I find it rather interesting that I've seen a fair number of damage parses that show mnk > drk, but not a single one that shows drk > mnk. Personally I don't know which is better (I play with damage logs off), nor do I really care, but to a neutral bystander I must say that overall mnk's seem to be more convincing ... *shrug*

Well, I generally wouldn't hesitate to invite either to fill a damage slot (unless I know the player and they are either stupid or gimped). The monk will probably do more raw damage but the drk can provide absorb spells and they're OK pullers if you don't have any of the jobs that are actually good at pulling.

I also agree with Dark^Impact's post.

A party is made of players, not jobs. Although of course jobs have considerable impact on a player's role in a party, how well the player performs that role will still be determined largely by the player's skill, tactics and equipment. There are many jobs that can contribute to dealing damage well - some by dealing it directly, others by increasing damage dealt by others (SAM is a good example of this). Regardless of job, arrogant jerks do not contribute well to any party.

Maybe I'm just in a hostile mood because too many idiots (most of them damage dealing melees) have gotten my parties killed in Eldieme lately. But I think we all need to calm down a bit.

[Xephoid]

MNK/THF

is really only seen in bone parties.

Because h2h counts as 2 attacks. /WAR's double attack kicks almost 1/2-1/3 of the time for them. And they need berserk to up their attack since they have no sustainable attack upper of their own like DRK.

A MNK loses almost 30-50% of it's damage ability when subbing THF compared to WAR sub. And SATA spinning slash is more powerful than dragon kick. Average damage, SATA dragon = 600-800. SATA spinnging = 800-1000.

Without bonus damage against bones, MNK/THF is quite weak. Can't really out damage a DRK/THF in term of normal damage, and can't out damage on WS either.

[Zafron]

Originally posted by Karinya
Also, skillchain closers (especially DRK and THF) often like to claim the skillchain damage as damage they are doing. But they're not. As was pointed out before, it takes *everyone* who is contributing to the chain to get that skillchain damage. And the magic burst damage, too.

how about naming names instead of stereotyping an entire genre of people who you don't even know. I have never taken credit for SC damage, i dont' know any THFs who have taken credit for SC damage, and i havent read on these forums about anyone taking credit for SC damage.

Points have been made that due to SC damage the mob dies faster, which has such and such effect, but that is hardly taking credit for the dmg itself.

quit stereotyping.

[Xephoid]

skillchain closer

The damage of the skillchain is based on the closer's weapon skill damage.

So while indeed it takes 2 to do a skillchain, and the first person has made contribution to that effect, the skillchain damage result is due in large to the person who finished it.

Hence you can get away with a dragoon doing a pitaful 200 damage on the wheeling thrust, and still get a 1000 light skillchain thanks to the DRK's spinningslash that finished the chain.

So if the credits are to be split, the bulk would go to the finisher.

[Crug]

Originally posted by 2.0
Any useful spell that a Dark Knight has a Black Mage also has.

lets see a blm absorb a mob in to a gimped lump.


not a flame just wanted to remind you about the exlusivness of the absorbs to drk.

i have seen this issue crop up many times before and i really wish people would leave this dead horse alone. like a poster has said before yes both classes do mele we both use weapons and do damage.. thats about where the similartys end.

[truong]

Question to Deodorant and Kariyna: Were we discussing the properties of sneak attack? No. I'm pretty sure everyone and their god damn mommas know how SA/TA works by level 40. So what exactly are you two jokers bringing to this discussion? Teaching us how SA/TA works when the majority of people debating in this thread are all above level 30? Sneak Attack when stacks with any Physical WS gets a boost in damage. Who didn't know this? We don't give a damn about your indepth faqs on attack modification? Sneak Attack+Physical WS = STRONG. That's all we need to know. SA+225 WS adds anywhere form 300-500 extra damage. Can you honestly tell me that's not a significant enough reason for a DRK to sub THF with a straight face? Having TA to transfer hate is a huge plus and makes DRK/THF that much better.

Pathetic, still so far not one MNK fanboy has come up with an intelligent rebuttal. Long post, zero substance.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by truong

Question to Deodorant and Kariyna: Were we discussing the properties of sneak attack? No. I'm pretty sure everyone and their god damn mommas know how SA/TA works by level 40.

Pathetic, still so far not one MNK fanboy has come up with an intelligent rebuttal. Long post, zero substance.

Trying to cover up your ignorance, eh? Because apparently, you don't know exactly how SA/TA works either. Were we discussing SA properties? Yes. Was it on topic? Nope. But at least now, you know exactly how it works, so I expect a little thanks for enlightening your-high-levelness.

And if you're going to talk about "intelligent rebuttals," I'm sorry, but that's exactly what you're not doing. How about some proof about your drk 'leetness,' instead of just throwing around words and giving situational examples? Yes, you have some valid points in a few of your posts, but mnk's can say similar things. At least they have the parser logs to somewhat back them up; What kind of proof have you, or any other DRK for that matter, given to back up your claims?

Don't get me wrong, despite the above paragraph I still have no preference for DRK or MNK (and still don't know who does more dmg).

[Kousai]

i think anyone who has a single working brain cell should know that sneak attack doesnt get dmg multipliers from dex when subbed, but it still does crit.... i dont really think truong didnt know that, i mean who couldnt? i'm sure he did... dont think ya really enlightened him much.

[modnar]

truong....Rebutal to your "argument":

Let me just state that most ppl THINK that DRK do more damage than MNK because they see:

DRK does 110 damage.
MNK does 50 damage.
MNK does 50 damage.

And then they say "WOOT!, we did 10 more!!"

(I am going to use this hypothetical situation in this argument and do some calculations. Notice: I have DRK 10% MORE damage than the MNK, just to prove the point that big numbers mean NOTHING).

But then, you seem to be more intelligent than those ppl and you DO mention a little concept called "Damage over Time" (Dot).

You talk about DoT (Damage Over Time), and let me quote you:

truong:

"Monks are overrated as fuck. Yes, they were on par with DRK, but after the patch it's not even close anymore. The whole deal with people defending MNKs and saying they rock (besides trying to sound like an elitest, know-it-all-I-mock-you-mainstream-DRK-fool-cuz-I'm-defending-a-non-advance-job bitches) is the whole "damage over time" shit. Yes, this may be true IF the fight itself lasts for a significant amount of time for a MNK's high DoT to take over a DRK. But this simply isn't the case in exp team. Simply put, if your team is even half-decent, you WILL kill any exp mob in 1:00 or 1:30 (crucial for constant Chain #5). This amount of time is not enough for a MNK's DoT to matter."

Now, let me EXPLAIN what DoT means, because despite your great attempt to reason with logic, your logic is flawed due to you not understanding the terms you are dealing with, mainly DoT.

You seem to think that damage over time is, "hey, the Monk does damage, but give him some time! He will catch up!"

That is NOT what Damage over Time MEANS!!! Damage over Time does not mean that Monks will do more damage if you give them more time!!

Damage over Time = DoT = Damage / Time.

That is Damage DIVIDED BY Time!!

This means that for every MILLISECOND the battle is progressing, the Monk is doing more damage.

If you as a Dark are doing 110 damage every 500 delay (read 5 seconds), and the Monk is doing LESS damage with only his two fists adding up for 100 damage every 400 delay (read 4 seconds), GUESS WHAT?! in 20 seconds the Monk would have done 500 damage where as YOU would have done only 440!!!

So in 20 seconds the Monk has done 60 more damage than YOU.

And let me add that if the battle were to last 1:00 to 1:30 minutes, that is a MINIMUM of 180 to 270 damage the Monk has done more!!! MINIMUM

So far in the argument, I have assumed that this Monk has subbed THF (his gimped sub if you ask me) and the monk has still won this hand "more damage" debate.

But why are we beating around the bush and using his gimped sub?! Lets take the gloves OFF!!!

WAR SUBJOB!!!

The Monk was doing a MINIMUM of 180 to 270 more damage...
MINIMUM!! WITHOUT THE DOUBLE ATTACK AND KICK!!
OH! AND WITHOUT BERSERK!!

Now please don't be in shock, because I am NOT done:

ADD DOUBLE ATTACK + KICK!

Well guess what just happened!! That 60 damage has a possibility of being increased by 50% (1 punch doubled), 100% (2 punches doubled), and 130% (kick added). 60 damage can go up to 300 Damage MORE in 20 seconds!!!

1:00 to 1:30 minutes you say? I'll let you do this math my friend!! Because you will come to realize that 300 damage per 20 seconds will be EQUAL to your WS!!!

The damage has just gone through the ROOF!!

(And I STILL have not added BERSERK!!)

Now ADD to that the fact that the Monk builds more TP than you and does 2 WS where as your slow Dark is still on 1 WS (I believe we used the 2 x 800 damage vs. the 1 x 1200 damage example...?) . MORE damage my friend.

Oh wait... and you MISS more than the Monk.. LOL!!!

LOOOOOOOOL!!!!

You my friend have been MONKED!!!!



PS:
I am not usualy this aggressive, but he called me out and I just had to answer...

[Xephoid]

double attack

is really what puts the MNK/WAR ahead of DRK/WAR interm of DOT.

SE decided that h2h attack should be counted as 2 attacks, and kick too I think. So MNK get insane amount of bonus interm of double attack. Double attack for them kicks in 2-3 times per minute (if not more) for them, and DRK/WAR would be lucky to get 1 double attack per minute. Not really fair, but oh well.

MNK/THF vs DRK/THF is another story. All the sudden now their is no more double attack for them. They stop swinging much faster than a DRK using Greatsword. And no berserk either, so no real way to boost their blows. Mean while DRK/THF still got souleater and last resort not to mention ABS-STR. And more powerful weapon skill to boot. This is when DRK turns the table on MNK against any mob that's not bone based.

[Deodorant]

Originally posted by Kousai
i think anyone who has a single working brain cell should know that sneak attack doesnt get dmg multipliers from dex when subbed, but it still does crit.... i dont really think truong didnt know that, i mean who couldnt? i'm sure he did... dont think ya really enlightened him much.

*Shrug* There's one thing I've learned on these boards and in-game: Being high level doesn't mean jack shit. I never assume people know something, because there's always something new to learn (there's tons of shit I don't know, and I have made a few 'uh wtf that's totally wrong' statements).

The way truong worded his posts made me feel like he didn't know just exactly how sa/ta damage works (with regards to dex modifier/crit attack). If he already knew that, then *shrug*.

[Kailo]

Originally posted by Dark^Impact
This thread was by no means made to flame people. If you want to share your point of view, don't flame. You can state facts and argue your point without saying things like "DRK is king, MNK can't compare" or "MNK own everything damage-wise post 65". And apparently it needs to be said again. You cannot compare class to class. Each and every class has it's specific jobs. It just so happens that MNK and DRK are melee classes, and that is the only thing they have in common. I stress, you cannot compare these two classes based strictly on the fact that both use their weapons to deal damage to a monster. There is no point in arguing which is more effective in such-and-such PT, because both have their specific jobs. One is not better than the other. I'm fed up with MNKs and DRKs stating "I've done X-amount of damage doing this-this-and-that, so I'm the better melee". Dispite how much damage either class does, it doesn't matter. They are different classes. Choose whichever you find to be more fun. And one more thing to mention again, player > class. Always, always player > class. Obviously an un-educated and slacking player will be less helpful than a well-informed and properly equipped player, despite if they are a RNG, a MNK, a DRK, or any other class for that matter. Read all of this carefully. Let it sink in. Have pride in yourself as a player, not what class you have chosen.

This was quoted for emphasis because apparently you haven't read it. Stop flaming each other. Period. It's usless to compare the classes. They have their own specific jobs, thus you cannot compare them. The equivalent would be the comparison of oranges to apples. You can prefer one over the other, but never compare them. This being said, it becomes quite obvious why MNKs prefer MNKs and DRKs prefer DRKs. It's the class they have chosen.

I'd also like to point out one obvious mistake Modnar has made, twice on this board actually. DRKs do not miss more often than MNK. The hit rate is equaled out due to equipment. DRKs wear +ACC to increase their hit rate, and MNKs generally wear more +STR to increase damage. For the sake of simplifying things:

DRK swings their weapon 10 times. 6 blows lands.
MNK swing their weapon 20 times. 13 blows land.

It's a nearly equal hit rate. MNKs will see more hits land, but they will also see more hits miss. The only reason you think DRK miss more often is because their misses stand out due to the fact they swing less often, so in affect, a DRKs swing is worth more per shot than a MNKs swing. DRK and MNK hit rates are generally near one another, varrying with different equipment. So DRKs do not miss more often than MNKs.

Originally posted by Deodorant
*Shrug* There's one thing I've learned on these boards and in-game: Being high level doesn't mean jack shit. I never assume people know something, because there's always something new to learn

[modnar]

Not ONLY Double Attack or anything of the sort. Monks main advantage comes from the "MARTIAL ARTS" skill that decreases delay between our attacks. This skill is independent of the subjob and is what takes the Monk's damage output over. The Warrior subjob is what takes it REALY OVER!

But anyways, I want to come down from my cloud and go back to the attitude I usualy play this game with...


Dark^Impact, just to point out when you say:

"This being said, it becomes quite obvious why MNKs prefer MNKs and DRKs prefer DRKs. It's the class they have chosen. "

I actualy do not 'prefer' Monks. I am a Monk and because of that if a Monk and a Dark Knight were lfp, I would usualy choose the Dark (unless something is wrong). Their spells help out ALOT, if only they would stop and actualy USE them... Absorb-AGI and Absorb-VIT mainly. A DRK in the party increases MY damage output!! (Put me with a DRK and a RDM doing their enfeebling spells and I am in heaven!)

And some of my favourite ppl to party with are DRK because we go NUTS with the damage and SC.

The only thing is that these DRKs do not come to me and tell me they are better or anything like that. Nor do I do that to them. Its actualy funny because they think of me as 'awesome' and I think of them as 'awesome'. We can make good arguments promoting each other's classes. (you might have seen me defending my fellow DRKs in this forum!!)

I just had to reply at one point with the rude and insulting "arguments" presented here... Its just not pleasant.

[2.0]

Originally posted by Dark^Impact
. So DRKs do not miss more often than MNKs.

Yeah they do.