Summoner Subjob

[Karinya]

Because if you do the math, conserve MP lets you cast more spells without running out of MP than /smn's higher MP *plus* auto-refresh.

Even more so if rdm or brd is present - conserve MP lets each of your MP count more, auto-refresh doesn't.

Even if you never nuke, warp, escape - at level 40+ /blm is the best way to cast more spells.

Except for smn, because conserve MP doesn't affect avatar perpetuation cost and they don't have any useful spells to cast without /whm (or /rdm).

[Tikki]

Most of the arguments against blm/smn are very accurate and I hear them often. I will in fact not reccommend it to most. I willingly and knowingly sacrifice the extra utility for the little extra blasting power and situational utility instead of overall utility.

And no, I don't sit forever lfp in Jeuno.

And to quote the greatest BLM of all time:

I CASTS THE SPELLS THAT MAKES THE PEOPLES FALL DOWN!

[Asmandeus]

Unless I'm in a static party, I see /whm as the best sub to bring to the table. You have much better chances to get a party by being flexible. Whm brings a bunch of useful spells...

HOWEVER -

In a set party that has it's role defined (for example my current party is pld/war whm/blm rdm/whm nin/war war/nin and me), I will always sub summoner for xping. Being elvaan, I lack two things; INT and MP. Recently through tests I've discovered that raising INT over my poor low MP is better on costs. Subbing summoner before 50 has it's merits in both these areas. Reasons being:

1) INT - It gives you more int over the whm subjob. At 20 you have +2 INT, at 48 it gives +3 INT. INT effects damage and resists in particular earlier on.

2) MP - Summoner sub gives a lot more mp than whm. I need all the MP I can get without sacrificing INT. Even more so later when the huge nukes will eat away quickly at my Elvaan mp.

Summoner gives both and my role in this party is to do as much damage as possible.

As riceburner said, the role is the same with the lack of flexibilty with the summoner sub. But I believe black mage / summoner, while not as flexible, helps black mage do it's main job better at the cost of helping out in emergancies (or sneak/invis etc) with white mage subbed. You can't really deny that.

We don't ask Rangers to sub whm to help the party out, we want them to use something to help their main deal as much damage as possible - that's their job, much like Black Mage we do damage. The only difference is that it's easier for us to sub white mage and be flexible in that category.

[Asmandeus]

Just for those who skip my long posts.

Black mage / White mage = Party friendly and Flexible you can add cures, use various nice whm spells and help the party move to camps/coffer hunt with sneak/invisible . It's a good sub to balance a party out.

Black mage / Summoner = Tight niche that isn't so party friendly, but makes you the Black mage incarnate, your role with this sub is to focus on raw elemental damage and black mage only enfeebles.

[riceburner4540]

that is true, you are built solely for doing damage as a blm/smn, but then again the damage increase you get from a few int points isn't very much...neither is the mp gain. at 50/25 you get like 36 more mp and 2 more int, not all too impressive. the only really nice thing you get is probably the auto-refresh. 2 int will be like +2 damage per spell, maybe +3.

if you're in a static party and you can pull this off though, more power to ya

[Asmandeus]

I checked it out with a 50 blm in my shell. Summoner gives +3 int subbed at 50 (on charts it says level 48). Probably up to +4 later.

But you're right it's a little bonus in damage, a little help with resists, a bit more mp, and auto refresh finally. But then again, if you want to go the damage only role, you might as well get everything possible. Plus you can never go wrong with more INT and MP as an Elvaan unless of course it's at the cost of your party's safety.

Anyway, I'm planning on flip flopping my subs around much like I did with Warrior (nin/mnk/thf/sam whatever was needed for the party that day).

[AtraposBLM]

At lv60/30 blm/smn though, they gained a new bonus. At lv60/30, you gain the smn's Max MP up trait (+30 mp). This isn't the first, but it is the last and the largest you get from a smn subjob (I think). Couple this with the new earrings you can wear (+30 mp) for a whopping +60 mp. That's truly huge.

Thinking about it again, blm/smn is useful whenever the situation calls for a blm to be nothing more than damage. This is almost never in exp parties, but outside of them, as in, while camping HNM or NM, a blm/smn could have it's uses. At the same time though, having /whm is STILL more helpful on most HNM, unless you're willing to spend several thousand gil on bringing stacks of sneak/invis pots with you every time you go.

[Asmandeus]

Luckily with high Alchemy, it's easy to HQ synth AH bought materials for Silent oil and Prism powders so often that it becomes free (sell the stacks, keep the extras).

[FFXITsukasa]

In my opinion I am a Black Mage. My job is to weaken and destroy the enemy. Summoner helps me do that by increasing my Intelligence and MP I can spend. Like someone said here before "I CASTS THE SPELLS THAT MAKES THE PEOPLES FALL DOWN!" Summoner helps me do my job better! Just like Paladin helps a Warrior do their job better.

[Yuanlung]

just an observation.....

I can't help but find it funny that people would defend the Hume/Elvaan race and claim "the +INT and +MP from Taru doesn't matter", and when they are defending their summoner sub, the +INT and +MP suddenly becomes an issue.. :sweat:

I think the most important reason is that people like hume/elvaan because they look good (as to a foot-tall melon head :sweat: ), and they want the summoner sub because it looks cool, but they feel too proud to admit it, thus, these lengthy discussions over obvious matters.

Personally, I am going with BLM/WHM all the way, so I get the best of both worlds, +INT +MP, and the party support abilities and versatilities of the whitemage sub.

[AtraposBLM]

I thought the same thing

[riceburner4540]

i'm a hume black mage...i know our mp is crap compared to tarus, but i can make due with what i have quite easily, at least at this point. i won't ever make a taru for increased int and mp, nor will i ever sub smn for those reasons.

[Taga]

if you want to get to 75 make sure you keep your whm or rdm up also

[Nici]

I think smn sub for blm is a good thing. You get more base INT, than rdm, or whm. So your blm spells do more dmg. Then you get Max MP boost which is great. I don't think you need whm sub, almost 99% of the time there will be a whm, AND a rdm in a party. So they can heal, as a blm you really shouldn't have to heal. Plus the Auto refresh from smn sub, along with dark staff, and rdm refresh you would hardly ever run out of mp.

[aszid]

but...

had you chosed Taru as a race, you would have gotten far more of an INT and MP boost, without having to sacrifice so many extremely usefull spells.

yet, people say that hume and elvaan can be just as good of a black mage all the time.....


(BTW, sub NIN and use 2 wands, then you would have more int than any other sub would give you, including summoner)

/sigh