Deliberate level capping

[Caspian]

Re: Deliberate level capping

The main exploit I was thinking of when I mentioned the seals, would be having a separate account with a lvl 10 or 11 job, inviting them to the party, then just putting them at a starting city gate, while you go out and rape everything that gets in your way. The thing about BST is you will still slowly level and would slowly make it take longer and longer to kill the same number of mobs. If you wer stuck at say 11, you could use MNK and just slaughter every mob you come across very quickly and amass a large number of seals quickly. I realize it could still be done if you just keep deleveling, but deleveling over and over would take up a fair amount of time and serves as a deterrent.
One way to potentially stop it would be to make it not work if the other people in your party were not within close enough proximity to earn experience points. I don't know, just a thought.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Deliberate level capping

Icemage, my last post was actually an attempt at trying to show that this change wouldn't necessarily be an easily abused feature, as opposed to criticism against it.

The flip side of this argument is that you could also have people like me who have kit for all sorts of levels on a variety of jobs mostly available within 10 minutes. And bear in mind - these are people that you couldn't invite as things stand right now anyway.

Icemage, I'm guessing that you are an exception as far as players go. I have 60 pack slots, 80 Mog safe slots, and 70 Mog locker slots. What do I do with all that space? I have enough WAR gear for exp'ing at lvl 68, and enough gear to do BST for most BCNMs up to 60. I'm guessing that very few players have more than 2 "sets" of gear for any one job, mainly because so many players juggle gear for multiple jobs at different levels.

[Icemage]

Re: Deliberate level capping

Icemage, my last post was actually an attempt at trying to show that this change wouldn't necessarily be an easily abused feature, as opposed to criticism against it.

Oh. Sorry, I guess I misread. /slaps himself for bad reading comprehension.

Icemage, I'm guessing that you are an exception as far as players go. I have 60 pack slots, 80 Mog safe slots, and 70 Mog locker slots. What do I do with all that space? I have enough WAR gear for exp'ing at lvl 68, and enough gear to do BST for most BCNMs up to 60. I'm guessing that very few players have more than 2 "sets" of gear for any one job, mainly because so many players juggle gear for multiple jobs at different levels.

Probably true, but it's actually not uncommon amongst level 75 players to keep a set of mid-level gear around for key jobs, if for no other reason than we hate trying to acquire a full set of gear for stuff like BCNM and CoP missions when the occasion calls for it.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

Re: Deliberate level capping

It's not just 75's that have gear for lower levels... I have kept all of my gear that I used at any multiple of 10 except for a few pieces that I have replaced (mostly due to acquisition of RSE). The reason being, BCNM and CoP... If you want to do either, it's a pain to go buying and selling gear all the time and remembering what you should be wearing. I knew then what my good gears were, but when pressed for time to start a mission, a thorough scan of the AH is not really feasible.

[Caspian]

Re: Deliberate level capping

Yep, I still have all my 30+ gear for every job that has thusfar reached that level. B/w assaults, CoP, Mission 5-1, and probably some others I can't think of, they come in very handy.

[Armando]

Re: Deliberate level capping

Ha ha...I have 55 Inventory, 80 Mog House, and 40 Mog Locker spaces and I still find myself trying to make room whenever I get drops

I've always wished I could do this myself. At the very least, I see no harm in being able to cap yourself anywhere up to 5 levels lower than your current level. Your gear and abilities would hardly change, and you'd be a lot more flexible for parties. Although, I wonder if S-E would consider it game-breaking that you could form ideal parties with this setup? And I don't mean that in the sense of job availability...I mean in level range. Since EXP is based off of the highest level player in the party, then the "perfect party" is one where everyone is the same level. If a person is lower level, then you're getting less performance for the same EXP, and if someone is higher, then you're getting less EXP without much of a change in performance. But if players could freely gimp their levels slightly, then a party of, say, 45, 45, 46, 47, 47, 47 could become a party of all 45's. That uniformity would also simplify the process of finding mobs of the optimal levels to fight, too.

[Icemage]

Re: Deliberate level capping

Although, I wonder if S-E would consider it game-breaking that you could form ideal parties with this setup? And I don't mean that in the sense of job availability...I mean in level range. Since EXP is based off of the highest level player in the party, then the "perfect party" is one where everyone is the same level. If a person is lower level, then you're getting less performance for the same EXP, and if someone is higher, then you're getting less EXP without much of a change in performance. But if players could freely gimp their levels slightly, then a party of, say, 45, 45, 46, 47, 47, 47 could become a party of all 45's. That uniformity would also simplify the process of finding mobs of the optimal levels to fight, too.

I don't consider any of these things to be bad from a game design perspective. Making all members of the party perform well and get good returns as a result is a GOOD game feature.

Also, forcing a cap on your level means that you don't have to leave parties if you level up because you're no longer skewing the XP curve - which means you party for longer, spend less time seeking, and don't have to find replacements in those cases.

In extreme cases, you no longer have to move camps when the entire party outlevels the current camp - nothing irks me more than to have an awesome party break up because no one wants to move camps but we've exhausted the current level range.


Icemage

[Jei]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I was thinking similar to what you suggested too Icemage. But freely caps your level at will may not be the best solution. What I'm thinking is something along the line with those mandragora hats.... where a PT member A can bring along a friend B, and B will be able to cap his level down to match A. This way when A level ups a certain times, A will eventually have to move camp. So camp dynamic won't be destroyed. And B will always be able to play with A because he can always camp down to A's level without limitations.

I can see this being 2 sided blade tho. Because now, I doubt any real low level new players will be invited at all. People will try to find high level friends to cap down to them to ensure their performance in stead of relying on, say, the level 28war/14monk rank 2 who's seeking....

[Icemage]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I can see this being 2 sided blade tho. Because now, I doubt any real low level new players will be invited at all. People will try to find high level friends to cap down to them to ensure their performance in stead of relying on, say, the level 28war/14monk rank 2 who's seeking....

That already happens - it's called static parties. ;P I agree it would make this sort of thing more common, but I still think people will prefer to invite people in their own level range first. First, because you're more likely to get someone who has appropriate gear, and second because they are more likely to agree to party than a level 75 who could go to a merit point party.

I don't want to use the gear-based mechanic because some jobs are fairly dependent on some specific pieces of gear (RDM AF1 hat or Opo-Opo Crown for instance).


Icemage

[Effedup]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I just thought of an interesting extension of an idea that's already implemented.

Would it be possible to force FFXI to cap your current character level at a specific level, much the same way the Sprout and Guide Berets work, but for any players in your party?

Basically, give us the ability to "lock in" our level cap at a specific level for the entire party. People will gain levels, but will be treated as if they were still the same level when they level up (i.e. I'm level 45, but I invited a level 41 player. I force myself to drop to level 41 while in the party, and go out and XP. I gain enough XP to reach level 46, but am still treated as being level 41 while I'm still partying as far as XP loss, gain, abilities, spells, stats, etc. are).

I think this would GREATLY simplify forming a party, as you can effectively ask anyone at any level range that you're willing to party with as long as they have gear to match the requested level range, and are willing to drop down to whatever level you want.


Icemage

I'm all for S-E doing something about the lack of non-75 players...xp partying has become a royal pain lately. I can't even quantify how much time I've spent sitting in Kazham lfg, with only 3-4 other people there lfg also, and of course we're all DD's so the only way to get an invite is if someone in an established xp party logs. And as much as I love the game, I really can't stand sitting around doing nothing.

I like your idea of giving the ability to cap down to add to the lowbie party pool. This is hypothetical, but what if they allow people that are 75 to apply exp points earned in other jobs to their main(s)? They'd have to set up some stringent guidelines to implement this (otherwise all 75s could solo a lvl 1 job towards merit points), but I think we'd see a lot more people taking jobs up that they wouldn't have wasted their time on before, meaning many more partying options for those of us that need them. Have a limit on how much exp you can transfer that increases as you level, to encourage people to keep levelling those new jobs.

Thay could also make it beneficial in some way to level a subjob past 37...maybe unlock more job abilities? It would work in the short term, but obviously only from 37+, and even then I think it would peter out after all the 75s got their sub to the new cap. It wouldn't help me (lvl 32) right away, but it would trickle down to all the levels as people started working on subs more.

I think if S-E did anything to encourage people to level more than 2 jobs it would greatly help the problem. I'm not saying to have sub-sub-jobs or anything (man that would be complicated), but just give high level players a more concrete benefit to taking new jobs up other than "for fun"

All I know is, it's 3am, and if any of that doesn't make sense please excuse me...my speaking skills go down the toilet after about 2ish . Feel free to criticize...and if that's really broken feel free to tell me so...it makes sense to me but I'm zzzzzzzzz.......

[DrivenTooFar]

Re: Deliberate level capping

My thought on this is that maybe they should only let level 75 cap their levels and any expierience would go towards merits. Of course, their would have to be some kind of penalty on the exp or else everyone would be out in the dunes getting 4-5 merits a day. Basically, the penalty for any level would have to work out in a way that no matter what level you are it will still take about the same amount of time to get a merit.

This would be good for people who want to help their friends out at a specific level by offering a job they can't find. The lowbies get their level and the high level gets to work towards merits. I'm not sure how great this would be because I'm sure a lot of high level players will want to party with their level 75's instead of doing something lower. Either way, no one really suffers and everyone will benefit.

[SharMarali]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I think if S-E did anything to encourage people to level more than 2 jobs it would greatly help the problem. I'm not saying to have sub-sub-jobs or anything (man that would be complicated), but just give high level players a more concrete benefit to taking new jobs up other than "for fun"

I've always thought it would be interested if SE created some kind of special battlefield or quest or SOMEthing where you needed specific jobs to enter. Like if you're a SAM, you must enter with a PLD, BST, MNK, BLM, and WHM or the battlefield won't even open.

Obviously for this type of idea to work, certain concessions would need to be made, since there are only so many tank jobs and so many support jobs. There would need to be temporary items added to everyone's inventory to help get through the fight, or perhaps an NPC that goes in with the group which is either a healer or a tank, depending on what the required lineup is.

In any case, I think it would be interesting to force people to actually THINK and determine how to win a fight WITHOUT throwing more BLMs at it, or taking in two or three very specific jobs that have already proven themselves to have an easier time with a battle than other jobs.

Part of the reason FFXI endgame kind of sucks is because all the battles have specific strategies that rotate around having specific jobs to make the fight as easy as possible. If SE found a way to eliminate this, for at least SOME kinds of fights, it would cause people to actually think and consider strategy again.

Anyway this is kind of off the original topic. Sorry

[Armando]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I don't consider any of these things to be bad from a game design perspective. Making all members of the party perform well and get good returns as a result is a GOOD game feature.

Also, forcing a cap on your level means that you don't have to leave parties if you level up because you're no longer skewing the XP curve - which means you party for longer, spend less time seeking, and don't have to find replacements in those cases.

In extreme cases, you no longer have to move camps when the entire party outlevels the current camp - nothing irks me more than to have an awesome party break up because no one wants to move camps but we've exhausted the current level range.

Hehe, I know those are good things. I was just pointing out, you never know what S-E thinks of it. Then again, they did introduce the Empress Band, and they're not directly opposed to the concept of burn parties, so surely this would be harmless in their eyes.

I was thinking similar to what you suggested too Icemage. But freely caps your level at will may not be the best solution. What I'm thinking is something along the line with those mandragora hats.... where a PT member A can bring along a friend B, and B will be able to cap his level down to match A. This way when A level ups a certain times, A will eventually have to move camp. So camp dynamic won't be destroyed. And B will always be able to play with A because he can always camp down to A's level without limitations.

That's true. I think this is the most feasable, least-exploitable implementation. Could even be a quest that you have to complete with the person you want to be capped with. Hell, just make it part of those "Introduction to Teamwork" quests.

I'm not saying to have sub-sub-jobs or anything (man that would be complicated), but just give high level players a more concrete benefit to taking new jobs up other than "for fun"

Oh man, I can see it now...Everyone would be XXX/NIN37/WAR18. That's...scary ; ;

[Effedup]

Re: Deliberate level capping

I've always thought it would be interested if SE created some kind of special battlefield or quest or SOMEthing where you needed specific jobs to enter. Like if you're a SAM, you must enter with a PLD, BST, MNK, BLM, and WHM or the battlefield won't even open.

Obviously for this type of idea to work, certain concessions would need to be made, since there are only so many tank jobs and so many support jobs. There would need to be temporary items added to everyone's inventory to help get through the fight, or perhaps an NPC that goes in with the group which is either a healer or a tank, depending on what the required lineup is.

In any case, I think it would be interesting to force people to actually THINK and determine how to win a fight WITHOUT throwing more BLMs at it, or taking in two or three very specific jobs that have already proven themselves to have an easier time with a battle than other jobs.

Part of the reason FFXI endgame kind of sucks is because all the battles have specific strategies that rotate around having specific jobs to make the fight as easy as possible. If SE found a way to eliminate this, for at least SOME kinds of fights, it would cause people to actually think and consider strategy again.

Anyway this is kind of off the original topic. Sorry

I think that would be cool...have specific battles that shake up the standard party. Pretty much every fight in ffxi has been fought countless times and the "easiest" party configuration has already been documented. For those few that were around for the NA launch it was probably pretty fun (or goddamn irritating?) figuring out what the best combinations were depending on the situation, but it'd be nice if there was some way to force peeps to inv certain jobs to parties. I don't have any firsthand experience (I haven't been playing all that long and not at high levels), but I'm sure there's a few job classes out there that find it damn near impossible to get an invite now at certain levels, and that would also encourage people to play those jobs.

However, they'd have to redesign it across the board and NOT just for the endgame stuff, because if they focus on endgame content (again), then we will be in the same boat we're in now...all the 75's are off doing their own thing experimenting with the new system, and the few lowbies ol at the time are beating their heads against the wall looking for pt.

[Chveya]

Re: Deliberate level capping

As for powerlevelling, you could make it go away completely by applying a penalty to spellcasters who cast healing spells on players 10 levels or more below them. Give them Weakened status if they do it and you'd see the PLs pretty much vanish overnight I'd think.

As much as I hate powerleveling, I would be disappointed with penalty like this. Many times I have been running through Ronfaure or a similar lowbie zone, and stopped to heal another player who is about to be killed. If a severe penalty was incurred from my action, I don't think I would be inclined to stop and help. Maybe it would be a small sacrifice for the sake of deterring PLs, but I feel like it would be a deterioration of the feeling of community and teamwork this game has. In my opinion, PLing is something that needs to be stopped, but I think it has to be a decision made by the player community, not by SE.

Maybe a penalty that makes healing spells cost double MP if casted on a player 10 lvls below you? That wouldn't be so severe, yet it would still be a deterrent to PLing. If your exp party had to wait for MP on their PL every other battle, it wouldn't be as worth it to abuse the PL option.

As far as lvl capping goes, my idea would be to add a questable item with a lvl capping enchantment. Make the quest only available to lvl 70 or higher, the item equipable by only lvl 70 or higher, and make the enchantment usable every 48 hrs (or maybe even longer). The enchantment would cap the user's level to the highest lvl in the party. Exp gain would work like Taskmage described, the same as any other lvl capped event (by the way, thank you Taskmage for that explanation; I was wondering how exp gain worked in capped areas). I don't know how long the enchantment would last, and whether it would wear if you died. And I'm sure there's lots more details that would have to be worked out...

Anyway, with this sort of setup you would have to plan ahead to do any exping with your lvl capped. You couldn't just slap on the item, use the enchantment, and start lfp on that job while capped at your desired lvl. You'd have to make arrangements with friends, or at least send /tells to the people lfp in that range. I think that implementing lvl cap in this way would deter abuse more than if lvl capping was a simple choice on the menu.