Merit Point Reassignment

[Legal Fish]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

They should make it like BLU.

Dagger and Katana...

You should still have to work to unlock Katana, but you should be able to change which is upgraded if you have both merited up.

[Icemage]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Most if not all Merits are only active if your 75, so while lvling that other job, enmity +1 or - and MP and HP + will not take a effect until that new said job is 75. So in no way while you are lvling a new job will merits hinder that, because you simply can't use them unless your 75.

This isn't true. Any levelled merit will apply 1 level per 10 full job levels on any applicable job. I have 1 level of HP merit, for instance, so I gain +10 HP on any job that I have at level 10 or higher. I have 7 levels of Enfeebling Magic merit, and I gain 2 levels of Enfeebling Magic for every 10 full levels of any job I'm on.

That being said, I don't like the idea of being able to just swap points around at will. Makes it too easy for everyone to choose the best "cookie cutter" setup for each job on the fly, instead of making intelligent choices and sacrifices based on what they feel is most important to each job.


Icemage

[levish]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

This isn't true. Any levelled merit will apply 1 level per 10 full job levels on any applicable job. I have 1 level of HP merit, for instance, so I gain +10 HP on any job that I have at level 10 or higher. I have 7 levels of Enfeebling Magic merit, and I gain 2 levels of Enfeebling Magic for every 10 full levels of any job I'm on.

That being said, I don't like the idea of being able to just swap points around at will. Makes it too easy for everyone to choose the best "cookie cutter" setup for each job on the fly, instead of making intelligent choices and sacrifices based on what they feel is most important to each job.


Icemage

what does making intelligent choices have to do with changing your mind, or discovering a new calling ...

[Icemage]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

what does making intelligent choices have to do with changing your mind, or discovering a new calling ...

You always have the option of doing more merit parties and getting the necessary points. It's not a race, you know.

People complain enough about not being "unique" at end-game as it is. This suggestion would make even the minor distinctions from merits completely unimportant because people will just switch into whatever merit points most favor their current activity.

If you say it's a waste of time and effort to merit more to get the abilities you want... well... I don't know what else to tell you except that the entire FFXI end-game is designed to waste your time to keep you happy.


Icemage

[little ninja]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Yeah for me i have 2 jobs at 75, so i know what i wanted to do. as im lucky an both rely on each others merits. HP, Crit hit rate, then it got hard. how many do i put into katana or axe. then what do i do for eva an parry skill. in the end it was a tough choice.

I feel bad for those players who have multiple jobs at 75. then you pretty much are hurtin compared to another guy playing the job who only has that 1 job leveled. in a way its more S.E hurting the multiple 75 jobs a player has, vs a guy with 1 or 2.

[Nazo]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

I disagree with this change as well. I've just started meriting my first job, but am being careful not to pick merits that will potentially mess up other jobs should I want to play them.

I think the system is fine as it is, if you want to play lots of jobs, choose a balanced setup at the expense of being uber in any particular job, if you are happy to specialize in one job then go for that at the expense of flexibility. I don't get my xp back from job x just because I decide to play job y for a bit, why should you with merits?

It might be nice to be able to turn off specific merits though, so I could merit emnity down for my whitemage but temporarily cancel the effect if I want to play a tank.

[Ziero]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Well the whole reason you can't just swap your merits is because SE wanted these to be at least somewhat permanent changes. They wanted people to put more focus into their 'main' jobs so they make you choose carefully what you do want to merit. As said before, be thankful you *can* remove and change merits, even if you do need to go exping again, as many games don't give you that option. I plan on taking many melee jobs to 75 so I know I'll focus on melee oriented stuff in general, but that's just me. You have to actually put some thought into what you want to enhance or else you have to do it all over again and that system works fine for me.

[Karinya]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

I think that when you lower the level of a particular merit ability, you shouldn't *lose* the higher levels of that ability, they should just stop working (and stop counting against the category limit) until you choose to turn them back on again. In other words, merit limits should work like the ability limits in FFIX or Front Mission 4 - that's how many merits you can have *active at one time* in that category.

This solves the problem with +enmity/-enmity sometimes working against you (you can just turn them off), and allows people with multiple 75 jobs to potentially fully merit all of them (if they put in the extra time and effort to earn more merit points - as much as twice as many if the jobs are different enough). The requirement to pay full price for *both* abilities in order to be able to choose between them should shut up the people complaining about how someone would get 2 merits for the price of 1.


I don't think it would really hurt the game to have RDM be able to turn on dark magic skill merits when they sub DRK, WARs change their merit setup depending on whether they are going to tank or DD, jobs with two main weapons be able to merit them both fully, etc. (How much of the neglect of Scythe and Great Axe at high levels is because WARs and DRKs are invested in fully meriting their *other* main weapon and can't get full merit effectiveness in both?)

The system isn't really abusable since you would still have to be in your Mog House to change your merit setup. At most you would see people bring one merit setup to merit parties, another to HNMs and a third to Dynamis - what's wrong with that? People already bring different gear, food and subjobs to those situations and it only strengthens the game. Some merits with situational uses, that are currently totally ignored, could be used for the situations they're good for (e.g. throwing on RNG).

Merits don't make a character more unique now. Unless you know a lot of DRKs that chose to merit their scythe instead of their greatsword, or SAMs that maxed their parry... cookie cutter setups still rule, but now you are stuck with it 100% of the time instead of just in the situation you got it for. If you level more than one job, *then* merits make you unique... often, uniquely gimped. Gee, that's helpful. Endgame activities seem increasingly balanced around the assumption that players can have lots of merits if they want, so people who can't fully merit all of their jobs can be at a serious disadvantage.


Those who choose to buy more merits than they can use at one time would benefit with increased flexibility; those who want to stick with one setup don't need any more merit ponits to reach it than they need now. Nobody is actually nerfed. And some people get another incentive to earn even more merit points than they have now. The only "drawback" I can see is for people who have a one-size-fits-all setup and don't want someone else to be able to put in *more* effort than they did and achieve more results.

[Akai]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

What specific merits are those? I have +4 enmity +8 sword + 40 hp and i just got chivalry, when I switch to my whm lvl 37 the Hp's are no higher than before i merited my, pld, I don't pull hate when i'm on my BLM anymore than i normally do, and my sword skill when when I switch jobs is non existent. So which merits specifically are there that stay after 10 and up when i play another job that isn't 75?

HP, MP, stat(STR, etc), and magic skill are for every job~
i currently have 1hp/mp, a few axe/eva skills, and some enmity and crit. i DO have +10hp/mp on every job, +2 axe/eva on every job, and id guess i have my enmity/crit, but theres no way to check it :x only Job traits work when you're on the specific job

[levish]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

i'd be all for turning them off and on which would be a bypass of sorts for categories, only downside is going out and merting again but at least you have the option to go back and forth without loosing one or the other.

[csBahamut]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Yeah for me i have 2 jobs at 75, so i know what i wanted to do. as im lucky an both rely on each others merits. HP, Crit hit rate, then it got hard. how many do i put into katana or axe. then what do i do for eva an parry skill. in the end it was a tough choice.

I feel bad for those players who have multiple jobs at 75. then you pretty much are hurtin compared to another guy playing the job who only has that 1 job leveled. in a way its more S.E hurting the multiple 75 jobs a player has, vs a guy with 1 or 2.

Yes, exactly. The system rewards those who focus on one job. It sort of levels the difference on one job between 2 players. One with only 1 lvl 75 job, and the other with multiple 75 jobs.

[Neomage]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

I see alot of people on here disagree with this because it would allow people to change merits at will. This goes back to the compromise - Say, for every merit you un-merit you get half the points spent in that back, rounded down.

[Icemage]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

I see alot of people on here disagree with this because it would allow people to change merits at will. This goes back to the compromise - Say, for every merit you un-merit you get half the points spent in that back, rounded down.

The majority of merit levels cost 1 to 3 points. With this scheme you either get 0 back (level 1 of most merits) or 1 point back (2-3 points). Not much change from the status quo, and a whole lot of extra bookkeeping in the process.

I'd be OK with maybe getting back (Merit Cost - 1) for each delevel. That lessens the impact of heavy investment in specific merits while still imposing a tangible cost each time you delevel one to raise another.

Re: csBahamut
Perhaps the sole job 75 will be more effective in their specific job, but I'll take the 2x75 player along with me any day due to their superior flexibility. Endgame is all about bringing the right skills and abilities to fights and executing on it; I don't care if someone is the best Ninja on the server if what I need is a Paladin tank.


Icemage

[Neomage]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Thats actually a good idea. Merit cost -1 would let people get some merits back, so they arn't as penalized if they give up xxxx job because they hate it and love yyyy job, but it will stop people from spam-switching merits.

[Karinya]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Yes, exactly. The system rewards those who focus on one job. It sort of levels the difference on one job between 2 players. One with only 1 lvl 75 job, and the other with multiple 75 jobs.

No, it *creates* that difference where none existed before. You completely missed little_ninja's point.

Without merits, a PLD75 who is also a NIN75 is no different than one who is also a BLM75, or one that has no other 75 job at all. They all have the same PLD abilities (assuming the same subjob and gear. Most of the same gear can be obtained by any of them if they're willing to put in the time and effort, I'll discuss the exceptions below).

With merits, the first PLD faces some very tough choices in combat skills and will probably end up less effective in *both* his jobs, the second doesn't have any problems with combat but can't merit enmity either way without shooting himself in the foot, and the third has no problems until he decides to take up another job. Now the first two are handicapped by having another job, when they were equal before (assuming they put in the extra time to gear up *all* their jobs, of course). It only gets worse for people with three or more 75s. For example, I know a 75 MNK, NIN and BRD. Even thinking about trying to allocate merits for him with the current system gives me a headache.


FFXI has a job change system for a reason - to encourage players to play and level multiple jobs, and to not force them to use separate characters (and thus redo dozens of missions and quests, some of them very time consuming, plus any subjobs that may be shared in common, etc.) It's one of the greatest things about this game that distinguishes it from hordes of other MMOs.

The merit system in its present form directly undermines it. Sure, you can have more than one job at 75 - but not at 75 + full merit. And if you leveled before merits were introduced (or before they became as powerful as they are now), you didn't even know that when you took your second job to 75. Sucker! Do it over again on another char (along with all those missions and quests and all the EX gear you already have) or be *permanently* weaker than other players at one or both of your jobs.

Choose-one rewards from unrepeatable quests/missions (Divine Might, PM8-4, Apocalypse Nigh) undermine job change a little, too - but only a little, because equipment takes up equipment slots, that you could put something else in. A PLD75 and SAM75 can only get Rajas *or* Sattva ring, but he still can get something else to put in his other ring slot. He can't put anything else in the merit "slots" taken up by 8 Great Katana merits.


Suggestions like Icemage's don't address this problem at all. I have no problem with merit point spending being 100% non-refundable, it's having useless (or, in the case of enmity, worse-than-useless) merits count against the caps that is the real problem (for multiple-75s, at least). I want to be able to equip different merits on different jobs, even if I have to earn twice as many limit points to do it. Why not, I'm already used to having to spend twice as much time getting gear (except for the rare pieces that can be used in common). Merits would be the same way - some I can use for both, most I have to get separately. But then I could put on the ones that are useful for my current job.

If there were some way to tie merit assignment to a job so that you couldn't change merit setup *within* a job (without some kind of penalty) but could still have different setups for different jobs, I guess that would work too. It seems unnecessarily complicated though. Merit configuration within the limits of what you have already bought wouldn't change much if anything. You can't get any setup with it that you can't get without it if you want it bad enough.