Merit Point Reassignment

[Lunaryn]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

If the idea of simply 'cashing out' merits at lowered cost is a bit disturbing, how about this for a possible approach (though one that still necessarily runs afoul of the perspective that merits should be reasonably permanent investments): An option to spend merit points (amounts can be balanced as seems reasonable) to move up to a certain number of merit points from one category to a similar-nature category? This would force an upfront investment in performing a change, without actually being a 'discard previous investment to make new investment' situation. It also represents the possibility of graduating the cost of the change based on how radical a departure it is from the original (a little like the job change function in FF3, sort of).

[Icemage]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Suggestions like Icemage's don't address this problem at all. I have no problem with merit point spending being 100% non-refundable, it's having useless (or, in the case of enmity, worse-than-useless) merits count against the caps that is the real problem (for multiple-75s, at least). I want to be able to equip different merits on different jobs, even if I have to earn twice as many limit points to do it. Why not, I'm already used to having to spend twice as much time getting gear (except for the rare pieces that can be used in common). Merits would be the same way - some I can use for both, most I have to get separately. But then I could put on the ones that are useful for my current job.

Whoah, hold the music here. There's no law in FFXI that says you have to be equivalently strong as every other player in the same job.

If you really want to excel at one job - dump all your relatively useful merits into that one job. You're going to be the "best" at that job, no matter how many level 75 jobs you have. While on that one job, you're the same as anyone else who wants to specialize in that one job.

If you don't want to specialize, then you can be "above average" in all the jobs that you tilt your merits towards.

You can call that a penalty for levelling multiple jobs if you want, but I don't see any inherent unfairness here. If you specialize, you're the best. If you generalize, you're better than people who haven't merited that job at all, and weaker than specialists, but... and here's the operative point... you are better than the specialist in another job that you've merited.

If there were some way to tie merit assignment to a job so that you couldn't change merit setup *within* a job (without some kind of penalty) but could still have different setups for different jobs, I guess that would work too. It seems unnecessarily complicated though. Merit configuration within the limits of what you have already bought wouldn't change much if anything. You can't get any setup with it that you can't get without it if you want it bad enough.

I happen to agree that a few of the merit categories should have been rethought (particularly combat/magic skills and enmity -/+), but the system seems pretty fair overall.

EDIT: For clarity.

Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Personally, I quit BRD on my former and now, save for MP merits, I have little to show for it toward my other jobs. I think so long as there were certain limits placed on it - like reassigning some of your merits from job-specific to the more general merits - it would be fair.

However, the line would have to be drawn on the new job abilities and spells. If you spent on those, you should be stuck with it.

[Balodoth]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Perhaps you could invest a point into a "Category Configuration" to alter point usage. In addition to spending a point on configuration, though, it would allow you to exceed the limit for that particular category. This is because you would not be able to allocate points that you had not spent on that bonus previously. In addition, some categories may not have the option to spend a point for "Category Configuration" such as tier II job abilities. Finally, changes to point allocation would be disallowed until after midnight JP time, or something to that effect.

This could be useful even in situations where you only want to make minor changes. For instance, you may not need to change from enmity + to -, but you may want to tone down your enmity so that you aren't constantly targeted but can still spike hate if needed.

[csBahamut]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

No, it *creates* that difference where none existed before. You completely missed little_ninja's point.

Sorry, I worded that sentence poorly, and used the wrong word there. I was aggreeing with littla_ninja.

If SE would make it so that players could freely move around merits at will (like some people want in this thread) after beating the level 70 Limit Break fights on every job, then I'd have no qualms with it. People deserve something nice for all that work besides some cap.

[Raydeus]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

I would like seeing this as long as you could reassign merits only in the same category you spent the merits originally, for instance say you have 10 merits spent on Others, you could only reassign those 10 points within others only, but not use those merits to adjust other categories.

That would be nice for those cases where players have Emnity +/- issues, and other things like that.

As a RDM it would give me the freedom to redirect the merits I earned for different ocassions, one time I could go all for Convert recast, and the next switch it to Ice acc. (however I wouldn't be able to change those points to the Group II spells category since that's a different thing).

That would be much better imo.

[levish]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

I would like seeing this as long as you could reassign merits only in the same category you spent the merits originally, for instance say you have 10 merits spent on Others, you could only reassign those 10 points within others only, but not use those merits to adjust other categories.

That would be nice for those cases where players have Emnity +/- issues, and other things like that.

As a RDM it would give me the freedom to redirect the merits I earned for different ocassions, one time I could go all for Convert recast, and the next switch it to Ice acc. (however I wouldn't be able to change those points to the Group II spells category since that's a different thing).

That would be much better imo.

This suggestion would address my concern so I feel that for me at least it'd be more than a satisfying change.

[Vyuru]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

I like Raydeus's idea, but in general, I feel somewhat against it. To me, it is the same as taking, say Goldsmithing, to level 100, then deciding that you wanted to swap to Alchemy, and then saying that you should be able to exchange 100 levels of Goldsmithing for 100 levels of Alchemy, since you already put in the time and effort to level Goldsmithing.

Merits are for tweaking out your character, and making your character special and somewhat unique. If a rdm for instance, chooses to merit Ice accuracy, instead of Convert, then that should be his special unique skill.

So while I like the thought of merit swapping, I just don't think it would be a good idea, it would make everyone more or less the same endgame.

Like taking a craft beyond lvl 60 is craft mastery, merits are job mastery, I don't think you should be able to just switch merits on the fly, even with a penalty.

[csBahamut]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

I like Raydeus's idea, but in general, I feel somewhat against it. To me, it is the same as taking, say Goldsmithing, to level 100, then deciding that you wanted to swap to Alchemy, and then saying that you should be able to exchange 100 levels of Goldsmithing for 100 levels of Alchemy, since you already put in the time and effort to level Goldsmithing.

Merits are for tweaking out your character, and making your character special and somewhat unique. If a rdm for instance, chooses to merit Ice accuracy, instead of Convert, then that should be his special unique skill.

So while I like the thought of merit swapping, I just don't think it would be a good idea, it would make everyone more or less the same endgame.

Like taking a craft beyond lvl 60 is craft mastery, merits are job mastery, I don't think you should be able to just switch merits on the fly, even with a penalty.

Good point. If people can swap merits freely, then we might as well be able to swap crafting levels as well. Switching my cooking skill over to Goldsmithing would save me so much time and money. I could also craft anything that I'd ever want to craft! The argument for convenience can be used for anything and everything. Somewhere a line needs to be drawn so that people just have to deal with tough decisions. There's has to be something in the game besides gear availability (and playstyle/skill) to force differences between players.

[levish]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

There is a strong difference between crafting levels and merit points.

There are particular costs associated with crafting vs. xp/meriting where you can merit as any job and spend the points on the one you want. Meaning if I wanted to level up bard and merit for almost free I could, and I could then spend my merits on my Ninja or Thief. In crafting you have no flexibility to skillup on another guilds recipies (subcraft requirements aside).

And if you honestly think ANYONE endgame that chooses a class to participate as would be going in with merits on another job ...

Yea a ton of good those +great katanna merits will do you when you are coming as Red Mage. One of this games fundamental departure from the norm is the flexible job system, the merit point inflexibility is just one thing that doesn't jive with that.

[Khevn]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Hmmmm it seem the best answer for everyone and SE would be to make it so, Every Job to 75 has a clean merit set, No job is effective by the others merits and you can gain more merits for this specific job. So you can Get the +enmity for your pld, but when you switch to whm you see 0 merits there and can go -enmity if you decided to EXP even more to trick out your whm. You don't have to worry about being affected by another job, you have the option to get merits placed as you want in your second job, but you have to put in more hours to get them. You get your merits in your PLD and BRD, and SE gets the benefit of you clocking in more hours and holding onto that conent ID for another 6months years whatever.

[Karinya]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Whoah, hold the music here. There's no law in FFXI that says you have to be equivalently strong as every other player in the same job.

Certainly not if you haven't put in as much effort. But if you have... then that's only fair, isn't it?

There are games where a given character can only do one thing well, but I thought FFXI wasn't supposed to be one of them. Isn't that the whole point of having a job change system in the first place?

Do you think it would be fair to allow each character to have only one job at 75 and all others cap at 70? Merits aren't *quite* that dramatic a difference - but they are pretty significant. Instead, not only can you get to 75 with all jobs, you don't even have to do genkais again - a clear *encouragement* to level multiple jobs on the same char. So why is the merit system at such obvious cross-purposes with the rest of the game?

Crafting is an invalid comparison because you have all your crafts at once. You don't have to go into your mog house to change from a goldsmith/woodworker into a woodworker/smith. Personally I don't see any reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to get all crafts to 100 if they want to put in the massive time, effort and money investment to do so, but I guess SE was concerned about the effect such people might have on the economy. Anyway, that's another thread.

If you really want to excel at one job - dump all your relatively useful merits into that one job. You're going to be the "best" at that job, no matter how many level 75 jobs you have. While on that one job, you're the same as anyone else who wants to specialize in that one job.

If you don't want to specialize, then you can be "above average" in all the jobs that you tilt your merits towards.

You mean below average. Meriting is so stupidly easy with TAU exp areas that anyone who *doesn't* do it is the exception.

You can call that a penalty for levelling multiple jobs if you want,

You mean because that's obviously what it is? Yeah.

but I don't see any inherent unfairness here. If you specialize, you're the best. If you generalize, you're better than people who haven't merited that job at all, and weaker than specialists, but... and here's the operative point... you are better than the specialist in another job that you've merited.

Ah, just like the old days when RDM was the second-best at everything!

I wasn't around then, but I've heard the stories. Nobody wants the second-best.

So, effectively, you can level more than one job to 75 on the same character if you want, but if you do, you're a fool, because only one can be fully effective. What? You didn't know that before you invested a million exp and earned a bunch of ex gear? Tough shit.

I happen to agree that a few of the merit categories should have been rethought (particularly combat/magic skills and enmity -/+), but the system seems pretty fair overall.

Except for people who need to change jobs on a regular basis, yeah.

Well, HTH merits are a little stronger than other weapon merits because of the nature of HTH, but I don't think that's too big a deal, really. (Or, at least, it's overshadowed by the physical resistance/magic weakness of pretty much all HNM which is a far worse balance problem.)


Merits carrying over to other jobs should be OPTIONAL. Not MANDATORY. Then you can - *if* you earn enough merit points - buy appropriate merits for as many DIFFERENT jobs as you want, without being restricted by the merits you already bought for another job that are useless or counterproductive on your current job.

[levish]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Khevn that would work in SE's favor, not the player in that all that it would do make it a even worse timesink

Thank you Karinya for understanding the point of my original post.

Players stand to gain little or nothing by grinding more or once more, once they've reached 75. if you haven't learned what you should have picked up on your journey from 1 -> 75 you probably will never do so.

Clean sheet of merits means if I wanted to level PLD in addition to Nin that I'd have to re merit +Crit +Enimity +MP

Sure, annoying people in the already crowded woodlands getting back xp I had to wipe to have fun with my new character is better, or just sticking with the first set of merits despite all the new jobs available ...

[Icemage]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

Certainly not if you haven't put in as much effort. But if you have... then that's only fair, isn't it?

Putting in the same amount of effort means deciding that you want to spent the extra time to excel in that one job. If you choose to place your allowable merits elsewhere, you have explicitly chosen NOT to improve this trait. The specialist who has only one job has the exact same issue once they reach 75 in another job.

There are games where a given character can only do one thing well, but I thought FFXI wasn't supposed to be one of them. Isn't that the whole point of having a job change system in the first place?

That's an unsupported leap of logic. The job change system is what it is - it lets you change jobs at will. The additional inference that you're supposed to be able to be the best at every job is not indicated. And who says that people who don't have as many merits can't do their jobs well?

Do you think it would be fair to allow each character to have only one job at 75 and all others cap at 70? Merits aren't *quite* that dramatic a difference - but they are pretty significant. Instead, not only can you get to 75 with all jobs, you don't even have to do genkais again - a clear *encouragement* to level multiple jobs on the same char. So why is the merit system at such obvious cross-purposes with the rest of the game?

Ask Square-Enix. That's their design, after all. You're making a huge issue where there is none. Nothing stops you from dumping merit points into job-specific merits, and those make a much more dramatic difference in effectiveness than the other merits combined.

Crafting is an invalid comparison because you have all your crafts at once. You don't have to go into your mog house to change from a goldsmith/woodworker into a woodworker/smith. Personally I don't see any reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to get all crafts to 100 if they want to put in the massive time, effort and money investment to do so, but I guess SE was concerned about the effect such people might have on the economy. Anyway, that's another thread.

Actually crafting is an excellent example. Have you ever crafted? I have three crafts at 90+ on my characters. I had to level cooking on my mule because I couldn't do it without sacrificing points in Woodworking. Didn't faze me, it's just the way it is.

By the same token, you could choose to create a second character and level THAT character to 75 and excel at another job if you really wanted to invest the time (I've known a few people who did exactly that).

You mean below average. Meriting is so stupidly easy with TAU exp areas that anyone who *doesn't* do it is the exception.

Tch. Elitism? Please. Merits don't make or break your effectiveness. They're nice, but you make it out like you absolutely suck if you haven't maxed your merits out, and that's simply not true. Most merits are barely noticeable in terms of net effectiveness, aside from a few of the new spells and abilities, which are available to all characters on all jobs

You mean because that's obviously what it is? Yeah.

Ah, just like the old days when RDM was the second-best at everything!

I wasn't around then, but I've heard the stories. Nobody wants the second-best.

I think you've completely missed the point of FFXI's end-game, which is very team-centric. You don't need to be the "best" to be successful - you just need good friends, good tactics, and good skills.

I belong to one of the best HNMLS on Midgardsormr, and you know what? We don't care in the least if someone has a completely decked out BLM with every piece of good gear - if we need another RDM, we need another RDM, and we'll ask them to come on RDM. My WHM gear and merits are much better than my BRD gear and merit setup, but I still get asked to come to events as BRD fairly often.

You place too little importance on flexibility and way too much on individual capabilities.

So, effectively, you can level more than one job to 75 on the same character if you want, but if you do, you're a fool, because only one can be fully effective. What? You didn't know that before you invested a million exp and earned a bunch of ex gear? Tough shit.

Any level 75 character with reasonably gear can perform just fine without a zillion merits. Is it nice if they have more? Sure. Do you absolutely need them? Nope.

Except for people who need to change jobs on a regular basis, yeah.

Check my sig. I have two level 75 jobs and a third at 74 on the cusp of 75. I change jobs once every few hours, and you know what? I don't lose any sleep over the fact that my Bard job isn't "the best" - it's good enough for the moment for what I need to do, and that's all that matters to me.

Well, HTH merits are a little stronger than other weapon merits because of the nature of HTH, but I don't think that's too big a deal, really. (Or, at least, it's overshadowed by the physical resistance/magic weakness of pretty much all HNM which is a far worse balance problem.)

Merits carrying over to other jobs should be OPTIONAL. Not MANDATORY. Then you can - *if* you earn enough merit points - buy appropriate merits for as many DIFFERENT jobs as you want, without being restricted by the merits you already bought for another job that are useless or counterproductive on your current job.

As I mentioned before, I think the merits that currently need work are enmity and skill merits, where bonuses in one area preclude bonuses for other jobs, or in the case of enmity, actually hurt you. It's still not as big a deal as you make it out to be, however.


Icemage

[levish]

Re: Merit Point Reassignment

As I mentioned before, I think the merits that currently need work are enmity and skill merits, where bonuses in one area preclude bonuses for other jobs, or in the case of enmity, actually hurt you. It's still not as big a deal as you make it out to be, however.

those are pretty much the only categories that you can carry over to other jobs and the subject of my interest. the class specific ones have no bearing on each other and do not limit each other in any way.

BTW merits absolutely make or break your performance combat specific ones included, particularly for melee jobs

+8 upgrades in dagger fighting IT means the difference between hitting and whiffing or hitting for 0

+8 upgrades in marksmanship means if you aren't a ranger you might actually hit and land a status bolt on something

+4 crit upgrades are felt everywhere

+4 upgrades in enimity are felt everywhere including where you don't want them.

Funny how the everything is fine attitude is presented where it clearly isn't does not apply for merits, you cannot go into a Black mage/Dark Knight/Monk job from a fully merited Paladin job and back under the current system.

"Don't apply those merits that don't compliment other jobs!"
"You can't be perfect at everything! choose one job and merit that!"
"You should have to merit more if you want those then merit more again if you want to go back!"

o_O

Seriously

Do you guys even actively play more than one job?
and if you do:
Do you play more than one job endgame?

If true I can't see why you'd be against merit point reassignment ... if False, what worth does your opinion have on a topic that doesn't apply to you?

*edited to include Icemage's quote*