If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

[Ziero]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

In short Blizzard has done their fair share of nerfing, but it's less apparent because in WoW, new gear keeps making people stronger. In FFXI, gear advancement is largely horizontal, yet everything is much easier nowadays because everything gets buffed in circles. I was honestly surprised they didn't simply boost dual wielders after they made samurai ridiculous. Thgouh as I understand it, they did buff PLD enmity generation as a direct consequence of them having trouble keeping hate from the recently buffed 2h-users.

...they haven't touched Pld in a while. And certainly not because of the 2 hander buff.

And gear isn't horizontal when a few specific new items cause you to become noticably stronger then before without them. People are stronger now not just because of 'job buffs', which for many are minor at best, but because there is a LOT of strong gear out there that is starting to become far more common. As someone said before, people can TP burn Kirin, but two of the main reasons that is, Wars with Ridills and Drks with Kclubs, are both things that have remained unchanged job wise for a LONG time. But with increases in Haste, DA and TA gear, as well as Acc, Att, Store TP and so many other stats being easier to gain in increasing quantities, it just makes players stronger.

The "ups and downs" of 2-hander jobs were the one astronomical buff and then the following toning down of said buff, but the end result was still positive for those affected and I agree that something had to be done as dual wielders were much better because of a stupid damage formula that favours hitting as frequently as possible over everything else as well as a bugged WS formulas.

Actually, after the initial release of this buff it went through numerous minor updates and tweaks to get it to the point it's at now. Which is neither over-powered nor under-powered. And as someone who uses both 2 handers and DW frequently, I can tell you the difference is very slight.

The RNG nerf was done back when the game was still healthy. The old RNG burns couldn't even compete with TP burns of today even if they were possible and they were seen as being broken back then.

1) The game is still healthy

2) Rngs burns of the past were a problem because it was only ONE job that could do that, where as with TP burns of today, most melees can fit into them. Including Rng. But Rngs' biggest problem was it's near uncapped damage on things far higher then the Rng, and they were promptly nerfed hard when it became an abused strategy.

I'm not sure what nerfs BSTs or BLMs had, though, and I'm not sure they needed ones as BLMs are also victims of the TP burn dominance as well as generally losing to melee in the damage race. Heck, I used to outdamage BLMs in my parties while tanking as PLD. Though they do excel at end game, once again thanks to stupid damage formulas.

...did you just say you could out DD a Blm on Pld -.o

Bsts were nerfed when the despawn thing was put in place and they lost a lot of strength in one of their key abilities. I won't go into details on this as I'm no Bst, but needless to say they felt they were nerfed hard because of it. And Blm were tweaked and toned down when Manaburning, both for EXP and HNM/Missions was at it's peak, which rivaled that of the Arrowburn fad.

Nowadays Blm can still mana-burn, just not as fast as they used to. Hell, they can even solo 10k+ an hour with seemingly little effort, something very few Melees can do because they just can't match the sustained burst damage of a Blm. So while melee can kill lots of weak mobs in a small time frame, a Blm can drop a much higher lvl mob for similar results.

It seems to me SE is doing it's best to keep things balanced, using both buffs and nerfs.

[Armando]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

As much as I hate it, I think nerfing Utsusemi at this point would make many things very, very stupid. Like Ultima/Omega. I'm sure there are plenty of other events where /NIN is very important.

and I agree that something had to be done as dual wielders were much better because of a stupid damage formula that favours hitting as frequently as possible over everything else as well as a bugged WS formulas.

False. The formulas were never skewed in favor of hitting more often. No one has ever sung praises to THF for swinging fast. And the WS weren't bugged, just inferior. WS without crits tend to be inferior to WS that can crit.

BSTs and BLMs haven't been nerfed at all. BLM just doesn't fit in meleeburn design (which is not a problem - it's a problem when party setups that can include BLM get vastly inferior EXP.) Actually, BSTs have been *buffed*. Now they don't lose EXP from having a charmed pet, and they've been given a JA that transfers all their hate to their jug pet.

Seriously, all people want is alternative party setups that'll get just as much EXP as TP burns. Let the TP burns have their fun if that's what they want to do.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

1H: 2STR = 1 Attack, 1DEX = 1 Accuracy;

2H: 1STR = 1 Attack, 2DEX = 1 Accuracy;

With that, Dual Wield != Overpowered.

Problem solved.

(Seriously, S-E, throw us non-/NIN 1H users a bone here! Red Mages can't use any 2H weapons, and we sure as heck don't want no freakin' Staff skill . . . if anything, we'd like Marksmanship again for Status Bolts, but that's de-railing a bit.)

[Maju]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

As someone said before, people can TP burn Kirin, but two of the main reasons that is, Wars with Ridills and Drks with Kclubs, are both things that have remained unchanged job wise for a LONG time.

But this part right here proves that gear advances much more horizontally in FFXI than it does in WoW. In WoW when you go up a tier in gear, it's directly better than your old stuff in every single way. And weapons like Ridill and Kraken Club are old, even from before the level cap was 75, right? These weapons were introduced a longass time ago and they are still the best, thus gear does not advance vertically the way it does in WoW.

But with increases in Haste, DA and TA gear, as well as Acc, Att, Store TP and so many other stats being easier to gain in increasing quantities, it just makes players stronger.

Well yes, there is still power creep, which is natural. However, I see lots of it also has to do with other things than gear. Look at ToAU; the mobs are pathetic and spawn like rabbits on crack. The game is significantly easier than before.

1) The game is still healthy

That, I believe, is a matter of taste. If I was the lead dev, things would be different. I can assure you of that.

2) Rngs burns of the past were a problem because it was only ONE job that could do that, where as with TP burns of today, most melees can fit into them. Including Rng. But Rngs' biggest problem was it's near uncapped damage on things far higher then the Rng, and they were promptly nerfed hard when it became an abused strategy.

A good amount of jobs are still, if not completely shunned, at least seen as sub-optimal for TP burn. PLD, THF, WHM, BLM, SMN and PUP at the very least struggle to find acceptance and I'm sure DNC and SCH will follow.

...did you just say you could out DD a Blm on Pld -.o

Yes... more often than not I outparsed the BLMs I partied with at later levels.

And Blm were tweaked and toned down when Manaburning, both for EXP and HNM/Missions was at it's peak, which rivaled that of the Arrowburn fad.

Ah yes, the building of resistance thing. BLMs are tricky as their damage curve is so completely different from other jobs that they end up being weak for some tasks and overpowered for others.

As much as I hate it, I think nerfing Utsusemi at this point would make many things very, very stupid. Like Ultima/Omega. I'm sure there are plenty of other events where /NIN is very important.

Actually, unless you're talking about something else, the Ultima/Omega battle in the CoP story is completely beatable with PLD/WAR taking the beating. However, the way I see it, encounters where taking hits is not an option are a symptom of the disease that is Utsusemi; regular encounters have become trivial so in order to create some kind of challenge, SE has designed encounters that severely punish you when you slip up and bosses that circumvent Utsusemi as much as possible though AoEs and attacks that go right through shadows.

False. The formulas were never skewed in favor of hitting more often. No one has ever sung praises to THF for swinging fast. And the WS weren't bugged, just inferior. WS without crits tend to be inferior to WS that can crit.

Well, I'm sure you know the math better than I do, but dual wielding used to mop the floor with 2h-weapons because it hit much faster for comparable numbers despite the much lower DMG stats on 1h-weapons.

And about WS like Rampage, isn't the crit chance for all the follow-up hits bugged? I remember reading something like this.

Seriously, all people want is alternative party setups that'll get just as much EXP as TP burns. Let the TP burns have their fun if that's what they want to do.

I also see TP burn as an unhealthy party configuration because it throws out the concepts that FFXI group combat has been built upon. Tanking, healing, skill chains and mana bursts. All a thing of the past, replaced by a monotonous, hyper efficient pulling machinery.

[Armando]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

Actually, unless you're talking about something else, the Ultima/Omega battle in the CoP story is completely beatable with PLD/WAR taking the beating.

I'm not really talking so much about the tanks as I am about the melees in general. Don't they have some retardedly strong physical AoE move that hurts like hell? Maybe that's the Proto versions. Not sure. Just heard something about that.

And I agree that fights where getting hit is an option was caused by Utsusemi being in the game. That's what I mean - remove it now, and how are you going to deal with those fights?

Well, I'm sure you know the math better than I do, but dual wielding used to mop the floor with 2h-weapons because it hit much faster for comparable numbers despite the much lower DMG stats on 1h-weapons.

I think the numbers being comparable was very much blown out of proportion. That happens a lot when people eyeball stuff. The thing with Dual Wield is that one-handed weapons and two-handed weapons already have similar DMG/sec ratios BEFORE any speed enhancements. Dual Wield skews those ratios by reducing your Delay, and also makes your WS stronger by adding an extra hit. And one-handed weapons have much better stat boosts than two-handers (+18 Attack +5 Acc, +30 Attack, etc...most two-handers are bare or have something lame like 5 STR.)

And about WS like Rampage, isn't the crit chance for all the follow-up hits bugged? I remember reading something like this.

Not bugged. WS without a "chance to crit based on TP", "delivers a critical hit," or otherwise just a reference to critical hits in their description can't critical at all. For instance, Asuran Fists can't critical. Yuki/Gekko/Kasha can't critical. Guillotine can't critical. Penta Thrust can't critical. If Guillo and Penta could crit, you'd see far more erratic numbers and higher damages in general.

I also see TP burn as an unhealthy party configuration because it throws out the concepts that FFXI group combat has been built upon. Tanking, healing, skill chains and mana bursts. All a thing of the past, replaced by a monotonous, hyper efficient pulling machinery.

They should have to option to do so if they wish. Manaburns do the same thing. But if there is a surplus of DDs, why can't there exist a party set-up to take advantage of it? And if there is a surplus of BLMs, why can't there be a party setup that takes advantage of it? Our jobs aren't evenly proportioned, and the more party setups that work, the better. Being restricted to 1 tank, 2 DDs, 3 mage/support or 1 tank, 3 DD, 2 mage/support is very...well...restricting.

TP burning isn't the direct cause of a decline in old-style parties. SCs being too weak (more specifically, resisted way too often,) too much damage potential being lost when you go over 100 TP (because you can't be in perfect synch with your SC partner) and most importantly TP burn parties getting far more EXP than a standard party ever could is the reason TP burns are the norm right now. Granted, the damage is still done (it would be hard to get people into SC'ing again for example) but there's still no reason to attack TP burns.

[Anaki]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

id like to see utsuemi Ni become lvl 38. making it so you cant sub it >.> it wont overly break mechanics. but itll remove the sub nin to survive idea.

[Prons]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

The only thing I can think of so far is, when I play a bard song it all seems to be the same song. I assume the higher level bard songs are different sounding, hopefullyh

[Mouser]

Re: If you could make a significant change to FFXI's battle system...

In regards to U/O without shadows... They make it easier, but it's not impossible. I did U/O as DRG/WAR (was my best job at the time). Just had to clean out my inventory and carry about 25-30 Hi-Pot+3/X-Pots into each attempt, and be extremely diligent about spamming them after getting nuked. Mamets were easy enough, the first bio weapon was where I used most of my pots. The 2nd weapon doesn't really do AOE moves, so once you've gotten there you're pretty much home free.