Common mobs with odd properties

[Vyuru]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

and they've been said to have both Double Attack and an MP pool

Perhaps they merited their mp?

On a more serious note, how do you know if a mob is war/war or blm/blm for instance?

Some of these job combos I can see how you figure out, but how do you know if they are subbing the same job?

[eticket109]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Thank you for the hard work Armando, this is great stuff.

Thanks as well to Kafeen. Your subtle and witty satire has kept me chuckling throughout the entire thread. Good show.

[Armando]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Temporary internet access.

Wishmaster: The TP test isn't mandatory. Even I don't do it unless I notice the mob is attacking slower/faster than the norm. As a matter of fact, it's the least important test, since it'll give the same results regardless of the mob's level or stats. It's getting their Defense/Evasion checks and the right level to go with them that's crucial.

Colibri: I believe they're RDM mobs, but haven't checked them myself.

On a more serious note, how do you know if a mob is war/war or blm/blm for instance?

Some of these job combos I can see how you figure out, but how do you know if they are subbing the same job?

I can tell because of their stats. A BLM/BLM mob will have less VIT than a BLM/RDM mob, for instance.

Good news, everyone! While I was internetless at the hotel, I bit the bullet and learned how to use Excel properly. That simplified the process of crunching the numbers a lot. Thanks to that, I've been able to quickly check a bunch of different combinations for Magic Pots and Goobbues.

Goobbues seem to be WAR/WAR and the formulas match well for the higher level goobbues, but it's slightly off for the ones outside the tree. I'm thinking that the level range I got off of FFXIclopedia and Somepage might've been off. Magic Pots seem to be RDM/WAR with C-ranked evasion (even though RDMs have D-ranked Evasion). Got perfect matches in Defense, and the Evasion formulas are off for just one level of the pots I got data for. I'm going to go back and try to get the Evasion for that level of magic pot again in case I wrote it down wrong.

[Kafeen]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Feenicks (maybe?), Kafeen. I'm not going to be mean. I'm not going to tell you why you're wrong.

I will, however, point out that your posts are nothing but a derailing. This thread is half as long as it should be. Armando is trying to make this thread a resource -- an encyclopedia. What you're doing is akin to promoting melee RDM in a thread dedicated to how to efficiently main heal as a RDM.

If you have issues with whether or not you should define monsters by job, I suggest spending time at Studio Gobli with Babblefish at the ready (or, to make it easier, track down translations of their stuff such as Apple Pie threads or the web page in VZX's signature). If you cannot understand what's going on when you're through with all that knowledge, if your view of FFXI is still that of "you'd think they'd go for simple," then you have no place to make claims against someone putting in as much hard work as Armando.

I wasn't trying to shoot down the work being done, merely point out that you shouldn't read more into it that you can prove, especially when it can be so easilly contradicted.

Information such as:

Hurrican Wyvern I
Tough
With 326 Attack, I got "High Defense"
With 328 Attack, no message

Sword Skill 252
No Acc Gear (and with my STR being only 60) I got HE + HD
Acc + 3, the Accuracy message was gone.

or

X = 88 Club, 53 DEX = 114
---
LEVEL 44
163 Attack High Defense
164 Attack Normal Defense
X+2-1 High Evasion
X+2 Normal Evasion
Defense: 164
Evasion: 146

is great, it gives the facts of what you can test. Especially if this can be checked for a range of mobs to help people equip themsevles with more attack or accuracy when needed.

What I don't beleve helps is then deciding absract facts based on that when other information states otherwise.

For example.
Beetles. Stated as being PLD mobs. In addition to things I've already pointed out such as the lach of PLD abilities and white magic, Armando has even stated that they don't have the Undead Killer job trait, infact no mobs have killer traits based on their job, they have them based on the area of the ecosystem they belong to. Facts such as the levels they gain defence bonus traits again is great since it can actually be tested.

I'll admit that there is a good chance that mobs could be given rating in stats such as a A in Vitality, a C in Strength, it makes sence and would allow mobs which appear at multiple levels to scale in ability at a similar rate to players

This would also appear to match things like:

Magic Pots seem to be RDM/WAR with C-ranked evasion (even though RDMs have D-ranked Evasion). Got perfect matches in Defense

better. The assigning of a job when the stats don't even match is surely proving that the theory is flawed. Just because one stat is a match for one peticular job combination it doesn't mean that everything else missing should be ignored.

[Armando]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

There is no flaw. If S-E can expand a mob's spell list to include whatever they damned well please, I'm sure they can take away Undead Killer (or simply set its proc rate to 0%?) or change a mob's Evasion rank. And the stats DO match in every other case. I've yet to find a WAR mob that has D-ranked main job VIT, and also doesn't have WAR's C-ranked AGI, or a BLM mob that has BLM's F-ranked VIT, that also doesn't have BLM's C-ranked AGI.

You're trying to make mountains out of molehills when it's your theory that actually is the more dubious of the two and has the most flaws. If S-E followed the job/sub templates perfectly, then we'd have some pretty boring mobs. Mobs having odd properties that don't mesh perfectly well with what you'd expect is, well, to be expected. It's sort of what this thread is about.

And Lmnop is correct in saying that you've been doing nothing but derailing this thread, since this thread is not about the validity of whether mobs have main jobs and sub jobs. And you know what else? If what I did in this thread is just list the Evasion and Defense levels of mobs of different families at certain levels, 1) nobody would give a damn, and 2) nobody would grasp the significance of the numbers. Providing their job and sub is akin to providing a graph - it's so much easier to look at and conceptualize the trends that are going on, than just looking at the raw data.

And finally, you NEED the job and sub to be able to work the formulas. Without them, we're pretty much fucked if what we want is to predict the mob's stats.

[Mhurron]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-...ed_programming
Learn it, love it and hate it.

This is a computer system, it has rules. Rules like Gravit ... Sorry, I got side tracked here.

Anyway when you develop a rules system, you don't throw it out when you have fringe cases. You don't have one set of things going on over here then spend the time to create another one over there that does exactly the same thing with minor differences.

Job Classes are created. When a mob instance is created it inherits properties from it. This simplifies programming and testing. However, maybe you don't want everything to be inherited. For instance, why should a beetle scare a skeleton? So you block that job trait farther down the inheritance without having to rewrite everything for every case.

class beetle inherits PLD { //main job (has a method called JobAbilites which includes UndeadKiller which class Beetle currently has)
method JobAbilites {} //overrides PLD method JobAbilites so we don't inherit here
}

You now have a beetle that has PLD as it's job with all the related stats and spells, without having the UndeadKiller trait. You don't have to rewrite all the PLD traits, abilities and whatnot, PLD changes happen to every PLD mob and player and happen once and only have to be tested once.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Kafeen is essentially saying that all the hard work and time and effort that players like Armando put into the game trying to fully understand concepts like this is useless.

That's highly disrespectful. I can't believe I added Kafeen to the blocked list before I added Sev.

[Callisto]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Armando, I believe that Nagamaki's testing showed Colibris to be BLU mobs in that same thread(you know which one I'm talking about.)

[Kafeen]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

If S-E can expand a mob's spell list to include whatever they damned well please, I'm sure they can take away Undead Killer
...
I've yet to find a WAR mob that has D-ranked main job VIT, and also doesn't have WAR's C-ranked AGI, or a BLM mob that has BLM's F-ranked VIT, that also doesn't have BLM's C-ranked AGI.
...
...
...
If S-E followed the job/sub templates perfectly, then we'd have some pretty boring mobs. Mobs having odd properties that don't mesh perfectly well with what you'd expect is, well, to be expected. It's sort of what this thread is about.

Which has been my exact point. Most of the mobs you are listing fall into 2 catagories, either WAR or BLM. To me this makes it look like a WAR template of stats was used for melee orientated jobs and a BLM template for more magic orientated jobs. S-E can add or take away anything but doing so changes the nature of a job.
Is a WHM without healing magic still a WHM?
Is a BLM without elemental magic still a BLM?

I'd say not since they're unable to fulfil the role required of that job. This is an extreme case in order to try and get accross what I'm saying but hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.

There are times when mobs are given specific abilities in order to make them emulate the appearance of certain jobs, most easilly noticed with beastment but even in these cases differences are there to seperate them from the races of players. When S-E wants mobs or more often NPCs to more closely resemble players more abilties are added such are WSs available to players.

I can see why you'd use the method you have as an idea indicating it to other people but it does throw inaccuraccies into the equasion. For instance, if you're facing a Sprikler (magic pot types) in sky. You're stating that that's an RDM/WAR mob. From that I'd expect to face a mob capable of casting and some melee ability. This may work. I'd also expect the mobs to be able to self cure and cast debuffing spells and single target elemental magic. This isn't so accurate. They don't self cure and are capable of casting AoE elemental spells. This makes them look more like BLM mobs if anything, yet their stats wouldn't match that proposal.

[Araius]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Here's the thing, Kafeen. The vast majority of the time, the idea that mobs have jobs in the sense stated in this thread works out perfectly with their respective abilities, spells, and stats. The aberrations are listed here and that's why Armando is pointing them out.

Basically, it's much easier to say that in general they have jobs and here's what they are, and here's the exceptions, than requiring an entire new list of "mob stats" and job traits, and the levels they're obtained. Obviously mob jobs differ in small ways from PC jobs, but don't take it so literally. They don't work exactly the same, but the similarities are so great that we might as well just consider them jobs. We call them that for simplicity's sake...if it confuses you, call them whatever you want, but don't come here slamming the incredible work that numerous people have put into this.

Awesome work Armando, I've been looking for this for a while

[Callisto]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Out of curiosity, are the any mobs that are Blue Mages? That question has always been bugging my mind, because when you think about it, it's sort of a paradox . . .

Also, any Dancer or Scholar mobs released yet?

Erm an add, see above about the Colibris, also I think it'll be a bit before we can test for DNC/SCH as I haven't seen their full on stat rankings through all levels yet.

Edit: Is there a way to merge my own posts?

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

I wonder what job template Gnoles fall into. I was farming some Gnoles in Vunkerl Inlet and noticed that my jug pet got countered by the Gnole. However, it doesn't attack like a MNK mob with h2h characteristics. XXX/MNK perhaps?

Is a WHM without healing magic still a WHM?
Is a BLM without elemental magic still a BLM?

I'd say not since they're unable to fulfil the role required of that job. This is an extreme case in order to try and get accross what I'm saying but hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.

If you really want to continue to debate this, please start a separate thread. And then everyone who's actually interested in this debate can post there. That way, this thread doesn't get cluttered with a bunch of tangents.

[Feba]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Which has been my exact point. Most of the mobs you are listing fall into 2 catagories, either WAR or BLM. To me this makes it look like a WAR template of stats was used for melee orientated jobs and a BLM template for more magic orientated jobs. S-E can add or take away anything but doing so changes the nature of a job.

Actually, this gives me a small question for Armando-- how well do beastmen fit their jobs?

And Kafeen, why the hell are you still here? Armando has put a helluva lot of time into testing these things, and if you seriously want to debate with him you had better get at least a tiny fraction of his experience under your belt so you have a shred of credibility (not to mention knowing what the hell you're talking about)

[Armando]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

Feba: I assume they fit their jobs perfectly well, or at least that's what the little bit of info from Studio Gobli that I have would suggest, but I haven't looked into them yet. It's quite a bitch to travel to a completely different place, find a weapon + gear setup that'll allow me to check a given mob's stats, repeat and find each mob's level, and return to Windurst every time I need to test a mob family. Then there's those issues with Goobbues and Magic Pots that I have to work out.

I'll look into at least one Beastman (probably an Orc or Goblin since they're the easiest to get find/get to) soon and see if they have any out-of-the-ordinary properties, but I doubt it, at least for original/RoZ mobs. I wouldn't be surprised if some CoP beastmen and most ToAU beastmen have special properties.

[Kholdstare]

Re: Common mobs with odd properties

I'm not going to lie. I skipped to the end after about page 2, and didn't see this on the front.

Have you done any research regarding rabbits? I know they have Double Attack, so they're either WAR or /WAR. But I've always had this feeling they're part THF. Partly because of their evasion and delay, and partly because whenever I use a Rabbit jug of any kind as a BST, it seems to have Treasure Hunter (It might just be me, but farming feels like it nets a lot more drops with a rabbit jug)

Any info on that would be appreciated, if only to make me not feel crazy.