What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

[Ketaru]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

What I find troubling is how people don't see how this is a one way street compromise. We expect JP to speak English for us as many learn English as a second language. How many English speakers would speak Japanese to accommodate somebody who only knows Japanese? Oh right, not many of us can say we know how to speak Japanese (myself included) so we must demand that JP compromise on language for us.

[Neverslip]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Oh, how I love the smell of stupidity in the morning.

... Say that in the mirror much?

because that's what they fucking speak.

I know that's what they "fucking speak". To assume I didn't understand that concept is bonefied retarded... or just spiteful. I could care less when it's just conversation. That is totally cool and understandable. More power to them... but that's not what I posted about, now is it? I'll spell it out for you: M-y p-e-e-v-e i-n-v-o-l-v-e-s {/sh} f-o-r r-u-n-s.

AT was a deeply flawed system seven years ago; it's seen very little improvement in that time.

Funny... AT sure has worked for me and many others to drum up interest for a good old fashion'd adventure w/ prizes at the end; so, your "point" about it being antiquated doesn't hold much water for me. I hardly ever see a /sh by us round-eyes that does not use AT in some way when attempting to gather people for a run. Most non-AT-users generally are of a squiggle-writing demographic. Many of us in the round-eye population of the game have noticed this. I will voice about it and feel unabashed about doing so. To not understand how to use the AT in order to get your point across in a /sh is beyond retarded and crosses over into the "I just don't want to deal with round-eyes" portion of elitism that I've found a certain population in FFxi predominantly exudes and enjoys perpetuating.

so we must demand that JP compromise on language for us.

No... just use the tools of communication that SE has put in the game. My friends and I have never excluded another non-English speaking person based on their inability to speak English. Only their inability or refusal to use AT. Can't say the same for the other side of that two-way street.

[Feba]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

To assume I didn't understand that concept is bonefied retarded...

When you're bitching about simply being presented with a written script you don't understand, and then calling the people using it 'elitist nationalist fucksquat's? Yeah, that about what I'm going to think of your views.

AT sure has worked for me and many others to drum up interest for a good old fashion'd adventure w/ prizes at the end;

And that's all well and good when you're just trying to 'drum up interest'. When you're interested in having an organized, peaceful, successful run, AT makes it hard to express anything past the basics.

Also keep in mind that the differences between English, Spanish, German, and other European languages are rather small when compared to Asian languages. Hell, I'm willing to guess almost every single person on this forum is capable of looking at signs or newspapers in a number of European languages, and at least grasping the general subject. You don't get that with Asian languages-- and no, writing it in roman characters isn't going to help you. Yes, you might be able to get with a Frenchman with poor English and an AT. That doesn't mean it's going to be as efficient or easy for a Japanese player.

[Ketaru]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

For joining your group, autotranslate may be all well and good. But for events that are more complicated than your common EXP party, but its shortcomings show when it comes to dealing with people who really don't know English.

Hell, some English speakers don't seem to understand English when you're giving them instructions.

[Neverslip]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

hen you're bitching about simply being presented with a written script you don't understand, and then calling the people using it 'elitist nationalist fucksquat's?

When the tools are there at their fingertips? No, I disagree. And you can have a

When you're interested in having an organized, peaceful, successful run,

... using AT. It's possible. I've witnessed this many times. To say otherwise is sheer ignorance.

You'll not change your view and I'll not change mine. That's okay too. You started insulting my view... that's simply foolish and I'll let you get back to your armchair QB'n now.

[Feba]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

You started insulting my view...

Yes, because your view is that people should be forced to communicate in a way that suits you, and that those who don't conform to your linguistic preferences (whether in English, French, Chinese, or the AT function) are worthy of scorn and derision.

I never said it isn't possible. I said it's very hard to express anything beyond basic concepts in AT. When you're dealing with basic situations or strategies, sure. Even more complicated situations, with good players, it might be possible to work out what people want. But there are simply cases where you don't want to be mucking around with how to phrase something in AT so you'll be understood, since by the time you figure out something they understand you've got a wipe on your hands.

AT is useful; it is not a cure-all. For a basic pick up group, you don't need any communication at all sometimes. For some events, even instructions in your native language can be hard to follow.

[Neverslip]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

I still completely disagree and feel as tho I'm saying:

I dislike petunias.

Whilst you are answering that with:

You are wrong and I can't believe you hate rocks.

Considering someone an undesirable and excluding them based on their inability to use a language that isn't their own is really ignorant and elitist and is what I was complaining about. I'll give this to you... maybe that people doing this out of pure spite is an assumption at times. I find more often than not, it's a prejudice against a nationality/race. That is deserving of scorn. More so than someone who expects another to use a tool provided to them for communication when announcing something in a public format; and that someone refuses to.

I was not saying it was entirely wrong for people to use their native tongue if it's not English. My peeve was specific to recruitment and using the AT. You are creating an argument that was never there in a thread that is supposed to be a venue for people to voice their displeasure. Meanwhile you answer with: you are wrong and you think this way.

... when that just isn't the case.

even language can be hard to follow.

FTFY

[Feba]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

I still completely disagree and feel as tho I'm saying:

I dislike petunias.

Whilst you are answering that with:

You are wrong and I can't believe you hate rocks.

Let me clarify the situation for you.

You said "People who talk in squiggles are elitist nationalist fucksquats."

I am answering that by pointing and laughing at what a sad little person you are.

someone who expects another to use a tool provided to them for communication when announcing something in a public format;

Again, you're demanding that people bend over to suit your linguistic preferences, or shut up in public communications. It doesn't matter to me whether they're speaking Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, Hebrew, or Bahasa, there's absolutely nothing wrong with people communicating in the way they feel most comfortable with, whether you can understand it or not. Are there some Japanese players who simply aren't interested in playing with foreigners, regardless of communication issues? Probably. That's also stupid. Do Japanese players neglect to use AT simply to lock you out of their events? Generally speaking, that sounds ego-centric to the point of being mildly paranoid.

[Neverslip]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

On that note:

Considerably more than 1/2 of the <insert asian squiggle script here> who don't use the auto translate function for /sh's.

Example::
Smithy: Noncoherentsquigglescriptforaverylongtime3/12forsomethingnobodyoutsidetheirlanguagecanreadinshout{/tell}Smithy

I guess I had the hope and made the assumption that anyone who has played this game and carried 1/2 a brain would understand what I meant.

You're still making up an argument. And elitists are still assinine bullheaded fucksquat asshats. Thank you and good day, sir.

~~~~~~~~(edit merely for dramatic effect)~~~~~~

... I said, good day!!!

[Raydeus]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

True. I don't really want to be involved with elitist nationalistic fucksquat. They can have their circle jerk.

It's really not that, but more about communication and the way they do things. Specially at events, if you can't follow instructions in their language it would be very difficult to coordinate (not to mention they tend to abreviate words and terms A LOT, so you need at least a general idea of what's going on.) Not to mention from what I've heard and seen most people don't seem to know much English at all.

So accomodating an english speaker who can't read any japanese would be too troublesome in practice. Even with the Autotranslator.

Although, if you do understand a bit and are willing to make the effort they do allow you in sometimes. A couple of times I asked to join a run for stuff I needed (though I don't even remember what it was anymore) and while it may have been a pain the people in the alliance/party were actually willing to bother with a mix of lower level kanjis and autotranslator just so I could join in.

But you need to at least be willing to make the effort to learn some Japanese for that, if they see you are willing to learn they are usually very helpful. It's pretty much like this: If they reply to your /tell chances are they are willing to try. If they don't just forget about it.



TL;DR

They don't really care about nationality or if you are an alien from Mars. As long as you know enough Japanese to comunicate efectively and without causing too much trouble.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

All people who /sh in Japanese are ultra-nationalist dogs, and all who /sh in English are racist capitalist pigs.

Or, they just may be lazy and don't want to deal with language issues. I don't know. Which one is more likely for the vast majority of /sh recruit messages?

[Aksannyi]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

To be fair, most recruitment shouts by NA players are typically done in as much auto-translate as possible, where JP shouts were usually just a long stream (three-six lines sometimes) of Japanese. Now I don't speak Japanese so I don't know, but I doubt that all of their shouts are retarded shout wars like the NA players tend to have on a fairly regular basis. You see an NA player recruting for something? He's using auto-translate. You see him making some stupid argument with <insert competing LS here>, he's obviously not going to use AT. I don't think the JP are missing out on much with that one. Typically, since JP players tend to find shouting to be rude (at least from what I've read on Elmer's blog), they aren't ones to shout unless they are trying to find help with something. So I am going to assume that most JP shouts, auto-translated or not, they are {Looking for members.} It's no question that the NAs and EUs tend to shout more than the JP players, but then again, not all of our shouting was constructive.

I don't fault them for wanting to speak in their language, but it does little to alleviate the JP Only thing that has been an issue since the start of FFXI. It held water back in 2003ish when NA players were all new and mostly retards. Not that there aren't any retards now, but the NA playerbase back then really didn't know what the fuck.

Basically Neverslip's peeve is the "JP Onry" mentality, his wording is a little bit caustic but I know what he's trying to say. NA players are often a lot more receptive to inviting someone who doesn't really speak English and attempting to work things out with the auto-translate than the JP players were. I haven't played in a while but I doubt that aspect of the community has changed all that much. And that used to annoy me, too, but I just told myself they didn't want my awesomeness to show them all up and got along with my day.

[cidbahamut]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

ITT: JP Onry is a myth, as is xenophobia.

Seriously though, I thought the NA client was incapable of even entering kanji without using Windower so no more whining about it being a two way street when the client was built to be one-way.

[Raydeus]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

Being unable to use kanji and kana is a huge obstacle when trying to communicate with JP players.

Even if you know some Japanese the end result looks like crap when romanized. So windower it is, I guess.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: What's your pet peeve in FFXI?

All people who /sh in Japanese are ultra-nationalist dogs, and all who /sh in English are racist capitalist pig dogs.

FTFY