New Importer Link Shell

[Cedric-Archaon]

Originally posted by anavrin
I completely disagree! What a recipe for disaster!:spin:

Hah! I don't agree, AND I POSTED!

LOLOLOLNANANANANA!!!!!!

GET OUT OF HERE U @SSHOLE UR SO MEAN AND WE R JUST TRYING TO MAKE A LS

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Nadyxes]

You know there are other ways of keeping in touch with people in game.
Its called Friend List.
You dont have to be on the same LS to talk with others.
I getting a little sick of the fighting.
It all started with the DragonKnight's problem.
I really dont have to go into that.
This problem has been going on a long time.
Its the same thing over and over and over again.
That is why NG was gone.
Because of problems.
If you really want to keep in touch with others use Friend List.
What is the point of Friend List if you dont use it.
I really dont understand. :confused:
Find a way to do something about this in a calm matter.

[Nadyxes]

And further more:

An ls is a group of friends helping each other out.
Ie Evil, Redlotus, Inerita, ROD, etc.......
You do what you can to help each other out.
As a whm, I sometimes power level others or give free teleports.
Just on saturday, I helped my friends finish M10 took some to xarcabard for Varsu crystal.
That's what an LS does.
They help each other in times of need and etc...
I dont even expect anything when I do give help.
Also an LS is for fun times.
Like gatherings and etc...
These disagreements are not going anywhere.
If you want to make an LS make it.
Dont complain about it.
Once you make it just say you have one and are looking for members.
That is the most simplest thing to do.
Using courtsey also helps.
You are dealing with real people not some robot.
Things just dont happen.
It takes time and courtsey.
Not right now and anger.

Thats what I think~

[StarvingArtist]

Already started getting negative on the first page.. If you really want a grand all import LS, make one yourself. You won't get a unanimous vote on what color/name it should be (not that those matter anyway). Let people join if they really wish. At the core, why do you really want a unified LS? If it is for communication and chitchat with ppl you know, keep a Friends List as Nadyxes suggested. To find PTs during Jpn off hours - not everyone is always within your level range and you may end up waiting just as long looking for a 6th member or whm. There will be those who think it is an open invitation for freebies, hand me downs, power levelling, and 20questions. Sure, you and I aren't the spamish newbies anymore, but there will always be another.

The more people you have, the less chance you have of getting to know them especially if they come on sporadically. Chitchat is nice, but when there are 3+ separate conversations going on at once, do you even listen? 20+ people on at the same time can get crowded. Having a LS based on just importers can give the wrong impression and people may not interact outside of it. Believe it or not, there are Jpn players that can speak English. I have a number of them on my own Friends List after getting to know them.

The reasons for the original all-importer LS (to my understanding) was because there were so few to communicate with and to help each other out how to navigate in the game. If you look at the Ragnarok citizen directory and this very site, that's not a problem anymore. Anyway, a LS is good for a smaller amount of people who can get to know each other better and help each other out. Making it too large will bring problems further down the road. -2gil

[Ethos]

Wow, look at all the progress.

Wow, 3 pages of posts and still no progress. THAT was the reason I didn't want to get back into the problem of "wait, i have some reasons why you SHOULDN'T do it." Ok, fine. You've said that. I'm not going to quote anybody here (ive read all the posts, mind you) nor am I going to point out any names. That's not the point of this thread, and I ask others not to do that as well. However, making this is completely valid. Many of us have an interest in it.

So, let's get back on track. Who wants to make the LS? What shall the name be? If you're interested in joining, sign up here.

If anyone comes in and flames us, or says why we SHOULDN'T do it just ignore them. Don't comment on their posts. Let's just get this done. If you have something to say, say it even if it's "Anti-LS". However, if you point out problems point out ways to FIX them as well. It's really easy to complain about things, but it takes some real effort to find solutions to those problems. That's what we're trying to do with this new LS.

[Xuande]

I've come up with fixes for the problems.

The problem:
The very idea of your LS idea is flawed

We need a higher leader to take charge like Ping. Why not make a LS on ffxi like a second ffxionline.com forum? Moderators can be LS runners, that is fine.

You are trying to involve some of the very people you wanted to disclude when you started this thread. You can't volunteer people. If people want to join your LS, then they will. Saying moderators will be the sack holders without them agreeing to it, or even asking them, wtf? This idea has caused most of the conflict in this new post.

Im for the new LS. We need you for once Ping. I`ve only seen you twice ever since ive had this game.

I think the tone here is that when you say "we need you -for once-", it's implied that ping hasn't ever done anything for you. Even if you didn't mean it this way, when reading it, this was the message I got too and I was almost offended to read this. I don't see how first you can volunteer someone like this without asking. I'd be extremely pissed off if it was my name there.

The fix:

No one is disagreeing with making the LS. Even if they are it's not relevant. Make it. It's your free choice to do whatever you want in the game. You just can't include others the way you have. The "official"-ness of the LS that you wanted can't be obtained because of the amount of people who disagree with it. So you'll end up with "just another LS." But go for it. I'd suggest making a new post with the name of the LS, rules, what not.

Things not to include in new post:

"Don't flame us" - This is already implied. Nobody wants flamers. Saying no flamers implies that there were infact flamers to begin with.

"Let's not make it like the last post" - This just conjures up negative memories and increases chance of things getting out of hand again.

"We nominate xxxx to be our leader" - No. Xxxx will nominate himself/herself if he/she wants to do it

General things that effect a wide range of people, especially those who don't want to be part of this. Remember, this can't be an official LS. Not enough people want this. This is your LS, make a post like all the others. There are plenty of examples


Edit: On retrospect, naming the new LS "JustAnotherLS" would be humourus

[Ethos]

Thanks for some of your opinions. I'll comment on a few...

The problem: The very idea of your LS idea is flawed

Hmm, last time I checked that was just your OPINION.

You are trying to involve some of the very people you wanted to disclude when you started this thread. You can't volunteer people. If people want to join your LS, then they will. Saying moderators will be the sack holders without them agreeing to it, or even asking them, wtf? This idea has caused most of the conflict in this new post.

We're not trying to disclude ANYONE. We're just trying to make progress. Even with NG, not everyone joined it. A lot of people hated it. So what? We need one shell that will help connect us importers together IF WE FEEL IT FIT. No one is forcing to wear the shell or even have one. However, there is no official shell at this point and I feel some people would like one. If you don't want to be a part of it, cool.

I think the tone here is that when you say "we need you -for once-", it's implied that ping hasn't ever done anything for you.

You're seriously going to nitpick at his wording like that? I knew what he meant. If you would have noticed, his post was very much like a conversation, and the "for once" shows necessity and desperation.

No one is disagreeing with making the LS. Even if they are it's not relevant. Make it. It's your free choice to do whatever you want in the game. You just can't include others the way you have. The "official"-ness of the LS that you wanted can't be obtained because of the amount of people who disagree with it. So you'll end up with "just another LS." But go for it. I'd suggest making a new post with the name of the LS, rules, what not.

Thanks, but a lot of people ARE disagreeing with this. And, we would make it, but it's very hard to organize anything when people are posting 3 pages of "Don't make it! It'll suck!" It's too bad, too. It makes it hard to get anything done here, and 6 months ago it would have never happened. And we will post the new rules, whatnot, as SOON AS WE GET SOME WORK DONE HERE.

"We nominate xxxx to be our leader" - No. Xxxx will nominate himself/herself if he/she wants to do it

Read my last post. Anyone who wants to nominate him/herself is free to do so.

General things that effect a wide range of people, especially those who don't want to be part of this. Remember, this can't be an official LS. Not enough people want this. This is your LS, make a post like all the others. There are plenty of examples

So, you would say have NO official LS? I see nothing wrong with it. If you don't want to be a part of it, then fine. But simply having one shouldn't be a problem.

On retrospect, naming the new LS "JustAnotherLS" would be humourus

Heh...that's not bad.

Now I'm going to just tear apart a couple of the other posts b/c they piss me off so much.

I doubt he's any more common than the typical wealthy and spoilt, yet somehow *always depressed* and attention craving drama queen teen. More likely he's just another anti-social person who expects loyalty to come out of a hat. We have no obligation to him, as he to us.
Anyways, what would you have us do? Be his parents? Or feed his problem by being fake friends who agree to everything he says?

Heh...I loved that one. First off, if he's just another anti-social person SO WHAT! Is it better to be cold-hearted and not care about the feelings of others? And, "fake friends"? Well, A lot of us ARE HIS REAL FRIENDS...even if we just play them in a game, and we like to help our fellow friends in any problems that they may have. If he's not your friend, so what? (yes, SO WHAT! is going to be the theme of this post...)

Wow, I'm stupified! Create a thread and say "those who disagree can't post".
Isn't that the same thing? Such double standards, try not to use big words because look what you did. You ended up proving that Kirie's point was indeed correct.

Well, disagree with my post. I don't care. But offer some solutions. Otherwise, you're just in the way. If one of us posted something about how our computer was messed up, would you just post "Haha...Dell's suck. You shouldn't have bought that." or would you offer real help when it is asked for? Disagree all you want, but offer some solution to the problem...that's what this whole thread is about.

It was like they were the american government, putting a 'dogs can no longer poop on the sidewalk in down town' addendum to a bill that is for the political restructuring of the congress >.< I was stupified.

Ah. Riders to bills like that are very common, and influence law greatly. Them passing a whole bill for that would be very hard, so they negotiate to put it on the bill. I'm not surprised by it.

Anyways, I'm sure you are aware when you make your LS this is what is happening and gonna happen:

Nobody will want to lead and moderate it.

Once it's created you will have a ton of new players join in.

Someone is gonna go on the clan-bandwagon and recruit anyone and thing like hell.

Wow, thanks for pointing out those problems. How do you think we can go about fixing them? It's not impossible.

The LS will be full of spam, annoying repeating questions, or questions for everything. Apparently people use LSes with "many people" online for this, no matter how long they've been ingame they just want their questions answered instead of getting up off their ass and finding answers themselves.

So, you mean people need help, and are asking for it? That's the point of an LS, and is GREATLY needed in a game like this, especiall for importers.

After a while the differences of opinion and "disagreeing = flame" thing resumes it's course (since everyone involved apparently SHARES that notion).

So, to limit opinion we have to limit communication altogether? How might we go about fixing this?

The leader(s) will hate to start removing people because they worked so hard to get people to join, plus they don't want the person being kicked out to go against them.

Yet another problem with no solution tagged on. Do you see where I"m getting at? How might we fix this? Maybe not even have a leader, just someone who helps organize? It's not meant to be a gang, but a forum for importers. You can respect people on the shell all you want, but it should be run more like a democracy.

The leaders will then go on un-explained absences and leave handling of the LS to other people. Lack of communication among them wreaks havoc with gay LS drama. In turn never getting the full stories of who did what and why someone needs a good kicking.

I think I see the problem...people have no problem-solving skills. Why don't we have someone in the LS to settle differences? Also, why do we need the leaders? Who will get into the LS? Is it open to all importers? This is something we need to figure out IN THIS THREAD, but I'm just hearing complaints.

The people kicked out will do this to the ACTIVE leaders involved in kicking them out:

I saw the thread. What's your point? Why was he kicked out? THIS IS ALL STUFF YOU HAVE TO BRING OUT! As Seymour said, this game is meant to last us another 4 years. Are we just not going to do anything about this? We have a problem, so we say "screw it, I don't want to do LS anymore." That person had a problem, but there are ways to fix them. People want to be so dramatic about their issues and take them out on someone else, so that they can come out the victor. We're not having that here. The LS is there to help players out.

Yes, who am I to assume such things.
-wealthy = I'm sure his parents are involved in importing FFXI and taking care of paying monthly
-spoilt = now that he doesn't get what he wants when he wants, he will expect someone else to fix it
-always depressed = "this game sucks, I'm lonely"
-attention craving = "I'm thinking of quitting, gonna start a thread, everyone better tell me to stay or else they're not my friend~"
-anti-social = well, Seymoure admitted to this
-drama queen = "EVERYONE HATES ME!" How many people told Seymoure they don't hate him? Yet he insists

SO WHAT!?!?! Maybe he is spoiled. Maybe he is wealthy. Maybe he is always depressed. SO WHAT!

Irony?
Here you are complaining about how a big LS is full of junk, noone wants to be responsible, people disappear unexplained, differences turn into flame wars... you say all this as if you disapprove, while at the same time advocating exactly the same thing, but on a forum rather than on an LS. I'm stunned.

Yes, I agree. People aren't here to solve problems, they're here to create them. (Or, you can prove me wrong...)



Well, none of this is meant to start flaming. Sheila pointed out some very rational problems with this...now we have to fix them. First, we have to see how they are caused, then we have to look at how we can stop that from happening. Much like in the forums, people in LS have problems, but there are ways to solve anything. We just need to THINK about them...I don't think that's too hard for most of you.

[Kirie]

This is completely out of hand.

I'm going to summarize a few things here. I encourage you to read them.

This thread has gotten so wildly offtopic it's ridiculous. All these random acts of character assassination are not only inappropriate but intolerable. In all quarters. I'm sure someone's going to run up to me, fingering me as a hypocrite, but if you take notice, I don't attack people. I attack their opinions. If you have beef with someone's opinion, take it up with their opinion. Don't automatically launch an attack on them or the linkshell they're on.

Ping is the owner of this site. He has not stated an interest in your project at all. Therefore, you cannot include him or his site in an "official ls." Before you even went this far, you should have PMed him. Not make a thread with the idea that "oh, he'll agree later." A lot of people you're including in this project, such as mods and admins of this site, don't want a part of this. This is why you should do the following.

- MAKE THE LINKSHELL YOURSELF.
- Optionally make a thread on this board saying you're making a new ls, anyone is welcome, we want to make a large importer community. Blah, blah, blah. Point here is: Ping does not endorse you (as of yet, at least). This is no official ls. But if you want to make some "NEOGUNDAM REVIVAL LS" feel free. Do it on your own time. Do it mostly ingame. No one'll care.

No one is really disagreeing with you making the linkshell. Xuande is right. You can do whatever you want. However, people are bound to raise dissent. If you don't like that, you need to create your own forum. One where only you and like-minded people can sit and yes each other to death. People have opinions. Please accept that.

The things that stick out to me MOST are the following:
"WE NEED IMPORTER ONLY PARTIES"
"WE ALL NEED HELP CAUSE WE'RE ENTIRELY CLUELESS"

This is well and good, but a) can't assistance be gleaned from SMALLER linkshells? There are already lses like Legion, etc around. More importantly B) THIS IS A JAPANESE GAME. Why is anyone playing with the expectation they're going to be with English players 24/7? It boggles my mind.

As for people "offering solutions," here's a good one: stop making this such an issue. If you want to make a new linkshell, MORE POWER TO YOU. If you want to tout it as the new NG, MORE POWER TO YOU. But asking for endorsements, clumping every single importer into the same category (oh wait, until they say "I don't want a part of this.") is ridiculous. I mean, seriously. Furthermore: people are going to raise points that they don't have answers for ! This is because the whole idea is flawed. It's been tried. It failed. Not once. But twice.

Final note: if you feel the need to contribute nothing else to this thread than completely off-topic character-assaulting insults, please leave. Soniti, if you "can't hold your tongue anymore," take it to PM. I don't see the point of your participation here.

[Buttermilk]

The reason why this thread has gone out of hand is because some people didn't follow Ethos' rightful request as the thread starter.

IF the thread starter says this thread is devoted to only certain discussion, you should respect that. For god's sake, even GAMEFAQS follows that common decency.

Of course you have the right to disagree, but then make another thread saying "why we should not have all-importer LS". Remember, this thread was started to discuss HOW people could go about forming a new LS, not WHETHER we should do it or not.

What some of you did here, (and the fact that you are moderators who should be "moderating" things really make it worse) was just so completely inappropriate and unproductive.

Back to the topic now:

People never asked Ping to lead this new LS. They asked IF he would be interested in leading or endorsing it. There is a difference: the former implies coercion, the latter implies a mere inquiry.

[Tekerin]

Originally posted by Ethos
Thanks for some of your opinions. I'll comment on a few...

So, you mean people need help, and are asking for it? That's the point of an LS, and is GREATLY needed in a game like this, especiall for importers.

Just a quick comment to make about this, and the probable harm it can be to any LS. Yes, it's ok to ask for help because the design of the game makes it impossible to do things alone sometimes, but a LS should not be made or used simply for help or questions. Think of it this way, if some player joined your LS simply for help, questions, or finding PTs, when none of these can be satisfied, he/she'll simply put another shell on look for the same things. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that there are no problems doing so in an LS (as long as u don't spam it and appreciate what u r getting), but it should not be the main reasons why anyone joins a shell. I think successful LSs are those that have turned itself into a community for ppl to fit in and have an enjoyable time.

[Ethos]

Thanks for clearing that up Tekerin.

Ok, lets get to it. I'm by no means trying to lead this...Seymour brought up a great point, and I just think it's not a bad idea. We want to use this as a way to set up what's best for the LS. We need to plan it, how it's structured, and so forth to stay away from some of the problems that have occured before. Also, just because it's not endorsed by FFXIONLINE doesn't mean it can't be the "Official importers LS." FFXIOnline is simply a huge community of importers.

So, lets get to work on this.

[Midnight]

Alright kids, I'm completely lost. If you're asking for suggestions and fixes, don't get all defensive when someone actually gives them to you.

1) In three pages of posts I can only pick out two people who oppose (not even entirely) the creation of this LS - Lavian and StarvingArtist. What "Don't make it! It'll suck!" posts are you referring to, exactly?

2) The majority of this mess can be attributed to your initial post of "No dissenters allowed ~~" and Seymoure making references to a LS that has nothing to do with anything. That is over and done with. So, for the love of God and all that is holy, people like Soniti and Buttermilk need to carry themselves and the gigantic chips on their shoulders out of this thread.

[Kirie]

Originally posted by Buttermilk
The reason why this thread has gone out of hand is because some people didn't follow Ethos' rightful request as the thread starter.

IF the thread starter says this thread is devoted to only certain discussion, you should respect that. For god's sake, even GAMEFAQS follows that common decency.

Of course you have the right to disagree, but then make another thread saying "why we should not have all-importer LS". Remember, this thread was started to discuss HOW people could go about forming a new LS, not WHETHER we should do it or not.

What some of you did here, (and the fact that you are moderators who should be "moderating" things really make it worse) was just so completely inappropriate and unproductive.

Back to the topic now:

People never asked Ping to lead this new LS. They asked IF he would be interested in leading or endorsing it. There is a difference: the former implies coercion, the latter implies a mere inquiry.

I think you're a justalittle bitter about something, because your constant remarks about the moderators being so "horrible" are the only recurring theme in your posts. Oh yes, that and the constant guttersniping. If you don't like how we're handling things, PM Ping or another admin. I'm more than willing to step down if posters think I'm breaking rules. However, I don't see how I am. Maybe you can enlighten me.

As Midnight stated, Seymour took it upon himself to perpetuate negativity. If he had stayed on topic, 3/4 of this wouldn't be here.

If you don't want people to react, don't give them something to react to.

I also quote the original posts:

If someone makes the LS like me or Ethos, it’s probably not going to work. We need a higher leader to take charge like Ping. Why not make a LS on ffxi like a second ffxionline.com forum?

Sure, this isn't a command or anything, but the logic eludes me. If you want to make an importer ls, go ahead. There's 40 out there already. But, oh no, this one'll be different because we have a figurehead at the helm? The whole thing just seems ridiculous to me.

[Xuande]

Originally posted by Xuande
If you guys could just get down to the essentials and stop arguing about circumstantial typical forum bullshit (e.g. Quoting someones post selectively for lines you can pick out, take out of context, and scrutinize, while ignoring the original content as a whole, as well as other remaining points), you could solve something.

And

Originally posted by Ethos
Thanks for some of your opinions. I'll comment on a few...



Hmm, last time I checked that was just your OPINION.



We're not trying to disclude ANYONE. We're just trying to make progress. Even with NG, not everyone joined it. A lot of people hated it. So what? We need one shell that will help connect us importers together IF WE FEEL IT FIT. No one is forcing to wear the shell or even have one. However, there is no official shell at this point and I feel some people would like one. If you don't want to be a part of it, cool.

Edited for length

I wanted to to post the whole thing but it would have been too long.

You know you're guilty of doing what I said if you read your post without the quotes and it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. Fragmented points here and there are not an argument. You don't address anything except individual paragraphs and sentences taken out of context. Stop egging everyone on.

You are an individual, if you want to make a LS, do it. There is no "we," since "we" don't want to make a LS. There is you. If you're not making it, maybe you need to figure out who the hell is and talk to them.

[Ethos]

Originally posted by Xuande


And



I wanted to to post the whole thing but it would have been too long.

You know you're guilty of doing what I said if you read your post without the quotes and it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. Fragmented points here and there are not an argument. You don't address anything except individual paragraphs and sentences taken out of context. Stop egging everyone on.

You are an individual, if you want to make a LS, do it. There is no "we," since "we" don't want to make a LS. There is you. If you're not making it, maybe you need to figure out who the hell is and talk to them.

WHO THE HELL AM I EGGING ON!?!? This has gotten ridiculous. I've tried and tried to get people to sit down and think about ways to solve problems with the huge LS. Asking people to think nowadays is just going to far, I guess.

*edit* Also, Kirie, I have no problem with any of the posts you've made. Just b/c you're a moderator doesn't mean you're not allowed an opinion.