To all crafters out there

[DrMrLordX]

Originally posted by Voyager
Frankly, I suspect most of the market saturaton is actually being done by high level characters are merely trying to get their crafting skills up to an acceptable level quickly. Low level character simply don't have the consistent cash flow to do that.

I managed to accidentally flood the Jeuno lance market from my San d'Oria bazaar at level 18.

Ha ha! *P

Not that I should be proud of that or anything. *cough*

Moral of the story: If you sell things off bazaar for too little, people will buy them up and sell them on an AH somewhere. This is what caused lances on Midgardsormr to die a hideous death. Or, at least, it sure helped.

[DrMrLordX]

Originally posted by Zafron


I think this is an expected market response. As the market gets saturated with more and more non-consumable items you have a gradual never-ending shift in the supply curve.

. . .

Even if every player in the game were brilliant economists, and businessmen I still believe this ever-growing supply would still end up wrecking parts of the economy. This is why I made cooking my main craft.

This is, unfortunately, true, and I have mentioned this as a disclaimer to anyone looking to get into blacksmithing as a money-maker. However, prices should not have dropped on weapons/armor across the board as quickly as they have. I believe that morons(a large number of them, in fact) have served as a catalyst, and the perpetually-increasing glut of arms and armaments has prevented many of these markets from recovering.

That being said, I am still glad that FFXI features no item-decay system. I say this even as a crafter. Even as a blacksmith.

It would appear that Square-Enix has attempted to address our concerns with the new guild contract system. I am curious as to whether or not this will really work. It essentially relies upon crafters(seeking guild points) to weed out underpriced, excess equipment. The flip-side is that there are apparently only 3 good items that can be obtained doing this(available at 48, 68, and 98 skill respectively, or so I have been told). Once the crafters of the world have earned enough guild points to get all three items(and, realistically, many will only have access to one of the three), will crafters have any more incentive to rack up guild points? How many crafters really want to sign their name on equipment that they make, knowing full well that the inscription will fade if it sells on the AH?

[Et Cetera]

if you have the money an instant recovery would be to buy whatever you want to sell at a loss to yourself (i.e 1000 gil over the price history average) and then sell it back for 1000 more than you paid for it. It'll take a little time, but in high level crafts people will tend to pay within 1000 gil range for items. So you'll make a small profit, and help the market recover a bit.

You're never going to get rid of the problems in the market, it has nothing to do with NA players, except for the sheer number of them. The problem with the in game economics is that there are a limited number of trades, and thousands of people to work them. Therefore the supply swells, and the demand drops. Someone said the market never recovered because people never raised the prices back - it's probably because the supply was still too large; if people find out they can make a little money off something they'll keep doing it. So the best thing to do is forget about gil entirely asap, and synth everything you need yourself. Of course, it's a near impossible task to become so self sufficient, but FF gamers are always up for the challenge.

So that's all I wanted to point out. In a real free market you have new innovative products being made, but in FFXI you can only make what SE has programmed for you. As new expansions introduce new synth items, the market will become less saturated and profits will begin to return to former levels.

[Xarndelius]

Maybe they should add a feature to the game where armor or weapons do degrade, of course you can sell them, (broken fishing rods). To NPC, or the repected Crafter so he may repair it. Doing this would definatly help out the crafters, but I think it would hurt the non crafters, since gil is already a major part of the game. I'm sure though there can be something worked out where goldsmithing, blacksmithing, and clotchraft products will not become obsolete far as the demand goes.

[Khalum]

Hitlermom: GO ROT. kthxbi

[Karinya]

It seems to me that the main reason crafts are unprofitable is not the low AH prices of finished goods: they can be sold to NPCs (including the guild you just synthed them at) for decent, if not awesome, prices.

The main problem is the high cost of raw materials and crystals, making it expensive to craft anything in the first place. The few materials that are available from vendors at decent prices (e.g. Saruta Cotton) are available in tiny quantities and perpetually sold out.

More people harvesting, logging, mining, gardening and farming for these materials might eventually bring the prices down to the point that crafting will become more profitable. In fact it seems that the economy was designed around the assumption that a lot of players would do these activities, either to fuel their own crafting or to make money by selling the materials. But most people consider these activities boring and won't do them unless they are highly profitable (plus you need a high upfront investment in gobbiebags, tools, and possibly field gear). So production is profitable and crafting is not.

I'd *like* to see the prices for most durable gear (and even consumables) to converge on the NPC sell price - it would reduce the number of badly equipped players, and make it cheaper to change jobs. But of course that can't happen until raw material prices crash - which they won't, because few people are bothering to farm for materials. It's easier to just train 99 quadavs and stonega III them to death for cash drops that take no inventory space.

So we have classic inflation - too much money chasing too few goods - at the raw material level. They should have made beastmen not carry any gil, but instead drop more of the various types of beastcoins (which can be sold to NPCs or used in synthesis) and/or other synthesis materials (Goblin Weaver drops cloth, but Goblin Smithy doesn't drop ore or ingots, and where are the Orcish Lumberjacks?). I'd love to see in the next patch notes that all beastmen now drop half as much gil (or none at all) but more items, especially synthesis materials.

Personally I've responded to the high raw material costs by vertical integration: producing my own materials (harvesting cotton and flax for clothcraft, growing foods for cooking, etc. and hunting monsters for the items that can only be obtained as drops) and then crafting them. But there's no doubt that I would make more money by just producing the raw materials and selling them at high prices than by producing them, crafting them and selling the products. So why do I craft anyway? Because I enjoy it. Crafting is not a way of making money in the current economy, unless you consider fishing a craft.

Of course there are a few goods whose value is highly stable - crawler calculi for example - but that's because they have no practical use but to turn in for quests. On the other hand zinc ore and yagudo necklaces are so high priced that their respective quests can only be done at a loss - and are done anyway because there are too few ways to get Norg fame.

[halo00to14]

as a midlvl crafter in cloth, my biggest complaint is the lack of moving in the supply and demand side of things. right now on asura, the prices of crystals have steadily moved up while more and more just sit there. it's silly to say that supply and demand works in FFXI when it really doesn't. 300 stacks of earth crystals all going for 300g! that's just sick.

when i was starting my craft, i didn't bother to look at the cost of items since they were so cheap. now that i am at the silk thread point, i look at many differnt things before i craft: cost of the silk threads, cost of silk threads per stack, cost of crawler cocoon vs guild price, price of lightning crystals, price of earth crystals, price of wind crystals. with this, if 2 crawler cocoons + a lighting crystals < silk thread at AH, then i go this route. i only go that route if i cannot buy silk threads for 600g. once that starts to run out, i see if i can get a stack of silk threads for 7200 at most.

i can usally eat the cost of earth crystals, but it's the other 2 that hurt from time to time. currently wind crystals are going for 200-300 g on asura. i literally sit there with a calculator figuring out which is the best way to go. i know that there are more and more people lvling in cloth craft now then when i started and that is driving the wind crystal prices up. but here's the thing, i don't see more and more materials or end goods on the AH. so what do i do?

i both under cut and jack up prices. i am at a point inwhich i can synth and entire stack of grass thread for literally 230g. my profit margin just sky rocketed at that point. i sit by an AH and buy as many of those necklaces as i can with a cap of 200g max and make them into threads. what this does is that it make a lot more perishable goods (threads/clioths) into the market. if i spend only 3600 total to get started, (12 necklaces) about 1/2 will grant me 6, 2 of three and one of 9 or 12. let's say 9. that's 51 threads on average. 3600/51 equals appx 71g per thread. i can either do one of 2 things, sit back at the ah and sell each stack i have for 1.2k along with single threads for 100g and just wait (usally takes 2-3days for them to sell) and gain a bigger profit or sell them at 85-90g each in my bazaar. not making a big profit, but enough for me to do it again the next day.

i jack up pricing by selling my green ribbons in my bazaar in towns other than jeuno. jeuno = death for crafting goods. that's a lesson i learned quickly. i can sell my ribbons at night, while i sleep for more than what jeuno AH will sell them for. i think it's for 2 reasons... 1) bastok has an avatar fight there and access to some pretty nasty things that use elemental dmg and 2) lowbies see a lvl60 ribbon for 4-6k and thnk "WOW! a great find! i can sell these things atthe AH for 10k!" the price history in bastok is 10 for some reason... by the time it gets around to those ribbons flooding the market, i will be far away from that craft and making other bigger things, supplied by my grass threads sells.

i learned how to deal with the market. i make the market work for me. once the grass threads start to dry up, i'll move on, same with the green ribbons.

[Icemage]

There is a reason why I've spent so much time crafting so many discplines - if you are relying on crafting for income (as I do), then specializing exclusively in a single craft hurts you badly when the market in your current level range crashes due to economic factors.

At my current level of skill (3 skills over 50, with a 2 others approaching that level), I have access to literally dozens of profitable products that I can synth on any given day. For the most part, I try and find profitable ways to gain skill overall because I enjoy it, but being able to abandon a craft and level another while I wait for the materials market to recover has been a very useful tactic for me.

If I make a mistake and produce too much of something that has a flooded market... I wait. I sit on that item until the market glut disappears, and put the items back up when the prices become reasonable to do so. Reasonable to me = make at least as much money as I would have made if I had just sold the component materials at auction.

This means I try not to contribute to flooded markets, and means I rarely if ever take much of a loss on synthing (except in those rare cases where the particular item I have chosen to synth is a definite money-loser, and I have already budgeted for the loss).

As in real business, diversification is a potent weapon if you know how to wield it.


Icemage

[Grayeyes]

This is one of the reasons I like alchemy. The items at AH are always undercut, because higher level characters get MORE of them with the same amount of synthing materials. So young alchemists are always hosed, but they can't blame anyone except the system. ^^

[hatey]

I know this is obvious, but people only need to be careful when it's a market they care about. Many times I undercut a lot when I resell things or just need a product for a day. But if it's a market I plan on profiting in on a day by day basis I try to be careful. You have to learn to "share" sales with other crafters or farmers or miners or the prices will tumble in any market that is very saturated.

[Dragonhope]

Originally posted by hatey
I know this is obvious, but people only need to be careful when it's a market they care about. Many times I undercut a lot when I resell things or just need a product for a day. But if it's a market I plan on profiting in on a day by day basis I try to be careful. You have to learn to "share" sales with other crafters or farmers or miners or the prices will tumble in any market that is very saturated.

So what you're saying is, it's ok to screw other people as long as you don't screw yourself in the long run? Well..what's to stop them from screwing you over in the same way you pretty much screwed them?

[Karinya]

Price fixing cartels are notoriously unstable even when there is communication between the fixers. When there isn't (as in the AH), undercutting is practically inevitable.

The AH has very strong incentives to undercut. SE designed it that way for a reason - to control inflation of most prices. It mostly works, except for NM gear where the supply is way too limited (either the item is grossly overpowered for its level requirement and everybody and his dog wants one, or the NM spawns once an earth week and drops the item 1% of the time with TH2, or both), and the quest items for the only 2 repeatable Tenshodo quests - where the demand is very high because there are hardly any Tenshodo quests and many of the useful ones require ridiculously high fame (what is it, level 7 Tenshodo fame to get the level 9 ninjutsu?)

In general - don't try to keep prices high when there are many people selling. You'll just get undersold and get nothing. Instead, switch to producing something else that is currently in low supply, and/or wait for others to shift away from the glutted item(s).

[Dragonhope]

There's 3 repeatable quests for Tenshodo fame. One in each of the 3 countries.

Windurst - 4 Yagudo necklaces to the Cat Burgler

Bastok - 4 Zinc Ores to the Tenshodo guy in the Warehouses

San d'Oria - From one of the guys in the store rooms. This one takes a lot of luck and patience to repeat but it also gives the biggest boost to Tenshodo fame out of the 3. Mainly because it:

1) Needs you to have an Airship Pass

2) If caught, your Airship pass will be suspended for 1 Earth day

The reward for completing this quest is 1k gil each time. And you pay only 200 gil for the airship (and hope you don't get caught) to do it.

[FFXITsukasa]

Honestly its simple supply and demand. I am a miner by choice and I sell the ores rather than ingots out of the hopes of saving money on Fire Crystals. Of course I mine in Bastok. The market is of course flooded with Iron and Zinc and other ores as to be expected. Since it is so flooded the price is bound to go down due to the immense supply from miners trying to make a quick buck. Even with the demand for it the amount of ore readily available wont boost the price. Now logically if you want to get a sale, sell for the exact price in the history, or as I do sell for say 50 gil below that. As for ruining the economy for specific items, its as much NA, JP and European players faults. Every sever has their greedy players and of course economists. The economists will try and do something to raise the prices rather than complain. Band together with a group of fellow craftsmen get together a large number of a particular good and sell them at a slightly higher price and soon you will notice the price returning and steadily increasing. But be responsible and don't raise the prices to a rediculous price and once again screw everyone over. Everything must be kept in balance and unfortunatly its our job as the 'noble' player to make up for what the jackasses do.

[SamuraiEnoki]

IMO

I hate being one of the last posters on a thread because my thoughts don't get read quite as often.

My main concern is the Japanese/English war in this thread. It's not the point that either of them are doing something wrong. Regardless of what someone's nationality is, people and society for that matter base their lives on economics. How you choose to sell is up to you. You all seem to be forgetting about Bazaars. Auction House has been mentioned throughout the entire post. However, Bazaars are where you make your money.

When I first started playing, I didn't bother checking anyone's bazaar, but now that I know and appreciate the prices and bargains of shopping around, I examine nearly anyone with a bag next to their name.

When I was making Insect Ball still for profit, I would empty my character's inventory and make her naked, pack her up with Insect Ball for about 40 gil less per stack on my server, and wake up with nothing or nearly nothing left. The profit over night was much more than I could have asked for selling only 7 stacks on AH, which I also maintain.

As far as extra items, such as an unbearable amount of Pie Dough that will be needed for Apple Pies, I simply store them on a mule and wait until that time. The extra $1 U.S. Dollar is worth the joy of not having an over-stuffed character at all times.

Prices vary, everyone know's this. Fire Crystals have ranged from 1100-2200 repeatedly on my server, when there is a Synthesis surge, prices go up. Try buying low and selling high when you can. However, when there are 200 stacks of Fire Crystals on AH, if you sell too high, you're going to be bound getting them back in the mail soon enough.

I've always done the opposite of what everyone else is doing. When areas are packed with parties and everyone is fighting over who's gonna get the next monster, go level your craft skills or farm/harvest what you can.

Lastly. My character's name is Maeko, am I Japanese? No. Japanese people who use Western names or words such as "Nose" also are not the cause of these problems. I hate buying high, so I'd rather wait until the price comes down or work on something else. I hate selling low, so I will wait longer and get my item returned every now and then. So when you look at it on the other side, I'd suggest you all buy high and sell low.