To all crafters out there

[Apoc]

Re:

Sorry man, The AH works like that in ffxi I remember a while ago when I had to buy Monster sign for 400k when the other three that sold in ah sold for 340k ; ;.

Random, but I dont care:sweat:

[hitlermom]

I checked the price history today, it droped from 24k to 20k now yayyyyy good job , keep it on then say crafting does not make money

[Geo]

Its strange when a stack of Steel Ingots sell for 39k and a single sells for 4000 Gil ...

[DrMrLordX]

Originally posted by stabby

I'm afraid you've missed the point. Them selling at whatever price they damn well please is an uncontrollable factor. No amount of crying on internet message boards will make them stop. If pricing it low gets them the money they want, then bully for them. Compete, or get out of the market until it stabilizes itself when they realise that their business model isn't sustainable.

The problem is that many of them DO NOT LEARN. They continue with their "business model" because they have no business model. If you don't believe me, take a look at the Breastplate market on Midgardsormr(if you can). It's stupid. Breastplates can be sold at the Bastok blacksmith's guild for . . . something like 10k, maybe 9k. Why, then, would anyone sell Breastplates for less than that in Jeuno? How ignorant can you get? Pricing things low will not get them the money that they want. It'll get them 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/8 of what they wanted. It'll also screw everyone else selling on that market.

The prime culprits are re-sellers who buy equipment, use it, get their money's worth, and then dump it in a desperate bid for extra cash so they can buy new stuff. I make a point of hoarding all my old equipment or dumping it on NPCs to avoid participating in this stupid phenomenon.

As far as "compete, or get out of the market" is concerned, I have been doing a lot of "getting out of the market" lately. It's sure helped my bottom line. Unfortunately, many of the markets I have abandoned will not recover until everyone pulls out and someone jumps in and jacks up the price. I've done this a few times. If prices do go up, everyone dogpiles the market and it collapses again. I point to Darksteel Baselards as a prime example of this(again, on Midgardsormr). I managed to push prices on those things up to 24k selling two a day for about a week. Then the market got slammed and prices dipped to 17k. The last time I looked, there were maybe 7 up, prices hanging around 17.5k, and the volume of sale was low(lower than when I was selling them alone).

I can handle myself given these conditions, and my profits overall are not affected, but those who rely on undercutting as their only market tactic wind up screwing themselves, and their colleagues, out of a lot of gil. I repeat, those who undercut rampantly and stupidly DO NOT get the money that they want. They get a fraction of what they want, and their gravy train dies fast. If they knew how to protect their own markets, they'd be fine. It wouldn't even require any collusion on the part of the people selling on that market. Just dogged determination. There are a few markets left on Midgardsormr, particularly buyer's markets, where a specific component is selling for the same price it has sold since the NA launch of the game. Anyone who prices the item in question higher simply does not sell it, period. It'll sit on the AH and rot. Goblin helms and mail used to be like this(not anymore).

Logically speaking, if buyers can hold the price of an item down by refusing to buy it above a certain price level, then sellers can hold the price of an item up by refusing to sell below a certain price level. They could do it on their own. They would profit doing so, over the long run. I would like for them all to learn to do this so that I don't get stuck in parties with some level 30 mage in starter equipment and half his spells complaining that 10k is too much for a scroll from an NPC vendor. Feh.

So, while I can not speak on hitlermom's behalf(and I doubt that I would want to do so), I will take every opportunity I can to educate people on the finer points of not shooting themselves in the foot on the AH.

[DrMrLordX]

Originally posted by Geo
Its strange when a stack of Steel Ingots sell for 39k and a single sells for 4000 Gil ...

This isn't strange. Steel ingots are used in the first Gobbie Bag quest. Demand for single ingots will therefore be higher than for stacks of ingots, because Gobbie Bag questers will only want a single Steel Ingot. Crafters are the only ones who will be purchasing stacks.

[DrMrLordX]

Originally posted by Zafron


I must disagree with this. I think when considering the stability of the market you have to consider various types of players. and how they effect the market in their own way.

The fanatic:

A player who plays for 16 hours a day(and they do exist) is going to have a production flow of materials that they will only be able to sell off by undercutting. If they don't undercut they will not be able to sell off the massive quantities of materials that they are producing. Subsequently they make more money by mass production and selling cheap. This hurts the market for casual players, but it keeps revenue for the fanatical players at optimum levels. This person probably makes the biggest impact on markets like fishing, mining and harvesting. Be glad AH mechanics only allow for each character to sell 7 items at a time, or these players would truely rule the economy.

I find that most of these people on Midgardsormr either a). sell cheaply off bazaar or b). sell expensively off the AH. Also, most people who play like this had already had their impact upon the economies of their respective servers before NA release. Subsequent uber-farmers/harvesters/miners have set their prices based on those established some time ago.

The most intensive miners I've known are keenly aware that even a small upward adjustment in the price of their ore means a huge increase in profits. They'll do anything they can to achieve a price increase. Or, they'll use whatever method they can to convert their raw materials into processed materials(ingots, sheets, etc) that will increase their overall profits.

The high level crafter:

This is the bane of the cooking craft, and others. Why does such a highly consumable product like Apple Pies sell for a loss? Because lv90+ crafters can afford to absorb the cost since they are making a killing off of Apple Pies+1. Out of 12 synths, if 6 of them yeild AP+1s they can sell the 2 stacks for 30k, and they have made crazy profit even if they just discard the 2 stacks of normal APs, but instead they put the normal APs on the market for a loss. This discourages crafters from boosting their skill, keeping out the competition, since APs are a popular synth to level off of(wether or not this is their intention is irrelevant).

These guys affect a fairly small segment of the economy when you consider the enormous amount of non-perishable equipment that is bought and sold on the AH at low prices by people who don't even know how to make such equipment, much less how much it costs to make it. At worst, you have high level cooks messing up a few types of pies, mithkabobs, and maybe crab, I don't know. They probably screw up a lot of food types, but there isn't all THAT much food out there for them to screw up. Alchemists mess up silent oils, prism powders, heck, all the potions, but that amounts to maybe one to two dozen different item types.

Then look at blacksmithing, and you'll see that just about every piece of armor and nearly every weapon equippable from levels 1-30 is simply not worth crafting. Take a look for HQ versions of those items, and you will find very few, if any. It ain't the high level crafters there. The notable exception is with the "upgrade" synths, where high levels will perform many upgrades to make as many +2 items as possible. They often sell the common +1 versions at the same price that they paid to get the base cp gear in the first place. It's annoying, but it also amounts to a only few dozen messed-up markets.

And, what's worse is that, when I said levels 1-30, that was a generous estimate. There's a creeping effect of market-death, claiming one weapon and armor type after another, moving onwards and upwards to higher level equipment. Knight Swords perished recently. Steel Scale armor pieces have been a joke for some time now. Darksteel Baselards bit the dust recently, too. Will Haubergeons be next to go? I hope not.

I will agree that the high level alchemists sure make it hard to level alchemy. But, again, this was a condition that existed on many servers before most of us NA players even got the game.

The person who crafts for level and not for profit.

I already mentioned these guys in my post *) I happen to be one of them. I'd like to think that I do a fairly good job of not beating any markets to death nowadays. I've made errors in the past(lances being my big one, and that wasn't even all my fault, damned resellers), but I've learned a good bit since then about what happens when you flood the market with durable goods, even from bazaar.

I don't doubt that there are people who just don't have any game economy savy, but to place the poor market conditions solely on these people is incorrect. And to stereotype English Speakers as being the cause of the economy's problems is just plain ignorant.

I'm not stereotyping English speakers as being the problem. I agree wholeheartedly with Kalgareth's post, in fact. However, all of the market decline about which veteran players have complained has come after the NA release of the game. A lot of markets that were lively when I started playing have been 6-feet-under for months. Sometimes NAs do it, sometimes Js do it. Why? I don't know. But the vast majority of them are just ignorant resellers. A few of the more painful market-deaths at the higher end of the economy have come at the hands of some really annoying crafters who just don't give a damn.

If you could educate the resellers, a lot of low and mid-level markets would perk up. At least temporarily. HQ crafters can throw a monkeywrench into any market.

[lvsocom]

Its not just crafting.. Its the people who start undercutting everyone else and drop the price in the current product or item to nothing. Its happened with diggers, loggers, miners, fishing, NM camping, and is currently happening to BCNM40 on my server (Fairy). The only thing worth more then 100k from bcnm is erase which is steadily dropping in price (down from 300k to 250k in one day, with another 18 for sale).

The more people are in a rush to sell their items, the more ways to make money that were profitable are going to die. High level crafting is one of the last remaining ways to actually turn a profit, and thats because the impatient idiots aren't willing to actually spend the time and money on it. Give it time though...

[hitlermom]

Some ppl raised the price back to 24k again , I was soooo happy , thanks God . when I loged back later , checked Price History , it went back to 20k :mad: . I am sure they are NOT japanese cus I started to notice ppl who lower price in guild since last time price cutting.
"thank you , NA ppl , you really did a good job , please just do not complain when you reach higher crafting level cus you are 1 of the ppl who cut price."

[DrGonzo]

WOW....lets not forget this is a game. People who complain are either selling gil for real money or selling gil for real money. And to hitlermom.....youre a total retard, thanks.

[Zafron]

Originally posted by DrMrLordX
And, what's worse is that, when I said levels 1-30, that was a generous estimate. There's a creeping effect of market-death, claiming one weapon and armor type after another, moving onwards and upwards to higher level equipment. Knight Swords perished recently. Steel Scale armor pieces have been a joke for some time now. Darksteel Baselards bit the dust recently, too. Will Haubergeons be next to go? I hope not.

I think this is an expected market response. As the market gets saturated with more and more non-consumable items you have a gradual never-ending shift in the supply curve. Once you craft a piece of armor and put it on the market, it is there permanently as part of the supply since as you said the buyers become the sellers once they are done with it. As far as I know the only way for such an item to leave the market is for someone to drop it, sell it to an npc, or delete their character. So as time passes and the supply increases, the supply curve is always slowly shifting to the right. The only way to keep the price from dropping is if the demand curve continues to shift with the supply curve and how can this happen? In RL cars breakdown, cloths wear out, etc, but in FFXI no one will ever buy a second set of chain mail because their first one broke. So that means that demand is completely dictated by new players and people playing through a 2nd 3rd 4th … 16th job. There is no way that kind of demand can keep up with a supply that always grows and has been growing for 2+years.

Originally posted by DrMrLordX
However, all of the market decline about which veteran players have complained has come after the NA release of the game. A lot of markets that were lively when I started playing have been 6-feet-under for months. Sometimes NAs do it, sometimes Js do it. Why? I don't know. But the vast majority of them are just ignorant resellers.

I think the two are unrelated. I think the market crash was an inevitability for reasons stated above. Did moron sellers act as a catalyst? Probably.

Originally posted by DrMrLordX
If you could educate the resellers, a lot of low and mid-level markets would perk up. At least temporarily.

Temporarily being the key word there. What happens as we get closer and closer to the point where there are so many of one non-consumable item on the server that everyone who needs one already has one? And/Or players get to the point where they have all jobs past 30 and will never need one again.

Even if every player in the game were brilliant economists, and businessmen I still believe this ever-growing supply would still end up wrecking parts of the economy. This is why I made cooking my main craft.

Also when the possession of market power is profitable, it should attract new entrants into the industry. The problem in FFXI is that entry is easy. All it takes is time in front of a keyboard and monitor. Any moron can break into the crafting industry, just look at the posts by the author of the thread. Any number of mistakes that they make can be erased by more time in front of the monitor. Its not like stupidity is going to cap their crafting skill or void their license to sell on the AH.

[Regulat0r]

You people have major problems, its a video game, prices will go up and down all the time. Coming on to a message to tell everyone to stop "undercutting" is waste of time.

[Zafron]

Originally posted by Regulat0r
You people have major problems, its a video game, prices will go up and down all the time. Coming on to a message to tell everyone to stop "undercutting" is waste of time.

Economics interests me. MMORPGs create very unique economic models that cannot be reproduced any other way. The ability to understand and predict a market given the rules the market is governed by is a skill that can be applied in other places than just simple video games.

[</SKRATH\>]

whats with all the haters? mostly you 'hitlermom' o_0 .!.

[CarbonFibre]

I love when the market is so saturated with low-level drops that the sale prices in the auction house are significantly lower than how much an NPC will pay you for it. Only ignorance is to blame for this. Why would anyone try to sell something in the AH (where a purchase is not guaranteed and you have to pick up the gil at your mog house) when you can just pawn it and get your gil on the spot? Another thing you can do (if you have the space and/or gil) is buy up surplus' of various items. If you can make a big enough impact or just wait until the prices change, you can make a lot of money selling it again. One of the ways I make gil is just through the buying and selling of various items. One thing I had going that I haven't done recently was buying 12 packs of different lumber and selling them at the auction house for 1.5 to 2 times the price I paid. This also works in other ways if you have friends in other towns or if you can travel easily. Since AH prices can vary dramatically, buying something in one city and then selling in another can make you money as well. Certain items that come from quests in San d'Oria, for example, sell terribly low in the AH because the supply is very high. If you put it on the market in Bastok or Windurst (or Jeuno), it will sell for more.
Another possible tip I have for some of you (again, if you can do it) is to sell your crafting results in the city that does not have that crafting guild in it. Isn't it safe to assume that most of the time goldsmithing products sell for less in Bastok than in the other cities? If you're a bone worker, shouldn't you put your products in the San d'Oria or Bastok auction house? Since there are so many people crafting those types of items in that city (since that's where the guild is), the supply is much higher. People are lazy and unload all of their junk in the AH close to where they just made said junk. Try to take advantage of that if you can.

I somewhat agree with the people complaining about the pricing plummeting. Many many players use price history as a strong guide to how to price their items. Continual undercutting can cause prices to fall very fast in some cases. Yes, they may go back up, but it seems to generally take longer for the items to go back up in price than go down.

Disclaimer: Almost none of the things that I've mentioned are suggested to be concrete rules. Things change and there are multiple uncontrollable variables at work all of the time.

[Voyager]

Rule #1 of bussiness: if you sell things for less than you paid to make them, you are taking a loss.

Rule #2 of bussiness: If you take a loss for to long you run out of money.

Rule #3 of bussiness: No money? No good to make things with.

Frankly, I suspect most of the market saturaton is actually being done by high level characters are merely trying to get their crafting skills up to an acceptable level quickly. Low level character simply don't have the consistent cash flow to do that.

For example, if I were to start making, say, Roast Rabbit, if I were selling it for less than 200 Gil apeice, I would bankrupt myself in under an hour, even assuming I were sell the rabbit, the instant I cooked it. Given my typical rate of crafting at craft lvl 0-5, that would only put, maybe 20 roast rabbit on the market, and would take a 10-20k investment on my part, and the investments required only get higher from there.

Simply, as a character under lvl 30, I cannot afford to flood the market. That 20k price tag per ingot Hitlersmom is complaining about is nearly half the cost of my lvl 30 armour (excluding Ochiudo's Kote). When you consider that the materials for that item cost nearly that much to aquire, a lvl 20-30 character simply does not have the money to make more than a handful of those, and they certainly don't have the money to sell them at a loss.

Just to try and drive the point home, my last char, a lvl 26 Monk/ 24 War, after around a month of playing, had about a net worth of only around 140,000 Gil, with an average hourly Gil Farming rate of about 6-8k gill an hour. Add in the ten to twenty stacks of Meat Mithkabobs I had used (1600 a stack, about), and my char's total earning over a month totaled around 400k. If I had dedicated my entire time to putting Silver Ingots up at the AH at a loss, I could have managed maybe 20 ingots, total, over the course of an entire month.

Players with only a few months of time, simply do not have the resources to crash the AH.

Harry Voyager