Iga leaves Konami

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Iga leaves Konami

You seem to keep wanting to make this about Metal Gear or Contra. Stop that. They're nice footnotes in all this, but this is really about Konami squandering Castlevania by ignoring demand of a market that exists and trying to push the IP somewhere it won't thrive.

Were Castlevania looking more in the direction of Dark Souls II right now, they'd at leasr be on the right track for a new direction for the series. A lot of Metroidvania and "Classicvania" sensibilities reside there. Instead, they look to the withering "stylish action" genre for money they can't possibly recoup.

[Icemage]

Re: Iga leaves Konami

I don't think Castlevania "works" in the same way that Demon's/Dark Souls does, though. The Souls games are about learning painfully by planning and finding out your plan has flaws by dying, over and over. Castlevania has some of that, but its roots lie in pattern memorization and reflexes, not careful planning. There's a reason there aren't a ton of Souls-like copycat games out; it's hard to do, there's a limited market, and it's really easy to screw up and make something that isn't actually fun to play (this last criticism is arguably what has been wrong with the Castlevania series for a very long time).

The series does need a new direction, but pushing towards Dark Souls doesn't seem right either. Something closer to what Dragon's Dogma does might work better.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Iga leaves Konami

The Souls games are about learning painfully by planning and finding out your plan has flaws by dying, over and over.

You're making my point for me. That's exactly what classic CV was. Ninja Gaiden and Rygar, too.

[Icemage]

Re: Iga leaves Konami

You're making my point for me. That's exactly what classic CV was. Ninja Gaiden and Rygar, too.

I don't agree, though.

There is a fundamental difference in design philosophy between even the most difficult Castlevania games and the Souls games. Souls games say "here - have these tools, figure out which ones work best for you and in various situations, and if you'd like a few more later you can develop them if you want, but you don't need them".

Castlevania is a much more straightforward "You need X item ability to open this door / bypass this hazard / complete this puzzle - go here to get it or be stuck forever".

Even though both have challenges, Castlevania (and the rest of the Metroidvania genre) use an "ability as a key" mechanic as a fundamental to their design that informs much of the gameplay design and balance. The Souls games don't do that; they just throw up challenges and let you figure out how to tackle each one in your own way as best you can (or can't).

Granted, Castlevania is somewhat less heavy-handed with its ability requirements than, say, Legend of Zelda, but it's still pretty strong.


Icemage

[Feba]

Re: Iga leaves Konami

itt bbq and ice are so used to arguing that they begin arguing over things they agree on

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Iga leaves Konami

NES era CV didn't have "use this item to solve this puzzle". That's Metroid or Zelda, classic CV wasn't much for puzzles, bad localization of Simon's Quest and random squatting aside. It was more about platforming defensively, using whatever you had to ensure some wayward Medusa head, Axe or didn't knock you into a pit to kill you. Defense was almost more important than offense at times, subweapons were for making the path ahead safe for landings. Additionally, when you jumped you were committed to that direction. The game had occasional traps to kill you, too.

Platforming and a good defense are important in Metroid, but there is no risk of pitfall deaths. Lava at worst, but even there death is not instant. Metroid let you control jumps and falls, too, so you were not committed to a direction unless you set a shinespark in the SNES or GBA games. Additionally, various artifacts can seem necessary, but you'd be amazed what you can do with just the wall jumps, morphball and bombs. You could arguably skip high jump boots,space jump, wall grab and other things, too, if you play it right.

Now take out the platforming, but keep the deliberate pacing, emphasize defense, make every action a commitment, add traps, pitfall deaths and make each death feel like a punishment for poor planning. Add Fast Travel warps, unlock new areas and routes with boss defeats rather than use of items. Also, toss in some secondary abilities like a bow or pyromancy to add to defensive and offensive measures.

We now have Dark Souls and Dark Souls II. We also have something a bit more Castlevania than Metroid

Throw in some platforming that does require a commitment, Medusa heads, hearts, clock towers, subweapons and movie monsters and you have Castlevania.

[Icemage]

Re: Iga leaves Konami

Original NES Castlevania (not the sequels)/arcade Castlevania barely even count as being in the Metroidvania genre. They're mostly linear affairs, with a very different DNA than the rest of the series. NES CV was derived directly from the arcade version, which revolved around killing you in many frustrating ways because more deaths = more money in the machine.

CV II: Simon's Quest is where the real Castlevania roots in the console era really begins, and when I say that Metroidvania-style design revolves around locking mechanisms and abilities, it's at this point that I begin my critique of the series. I challenge the assertion that defense is an emphasis in most of the CV games; to me it's more that your basic attack patterns and movement are so limited and weak that you need new weapon types to effectively reach some enemies, and certainly your mobility vastly improves in most of the games as you acquire better skills/items.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Iga leaves Konami

I gotta side with Icemage.

Souls games say "here - have these tools, figure out which ones work best for you and in various situations, and if you'd like a few more later you can develop them if you want, but you don't need them".

That and a small but potent dose of "killing the player in ways they can't possibly see coming"

...and make each death feel like a punishment for poor planning.

I wish. You walk into boss fights completely blindfolded and often bump into one of three problems:
* You have no practical means of altering your equipment once you're in, so god help you if you need a specialized gear set to take on a boss. I'm looking at you, Moonlight Butterfly and Seath the Scaleless. Quelaag and Ornstein + Smough can also be tough without the right weapons.
* The boss requires a specialized strategy that you won't know the first time around. You will definitely die to Bed of Chaos. Capra Demon and Four Kings have a very high chance of blindsiding you, as well as Iron Golem if you weren't insane enough to think you could kill the bomb-throwing giants.
* Your stats are too low. If your attack is below the enemy's defense, your damage goes straight to hell. If you break that number it shoots up quadratically. I could barely dent Quelaag on my second playthrough trying out a DEX build instead of a STR build.

Outside of boss fights:
* In Undead Parish, they hide zombies around blind corners in areas with shitty contrast.
* The dragon bridge.
* The mimic in Sen's Fortress. The middle of one of the most trap-heavy dungeons and 10+ hours into a game is not the time to reveal instant-kill mimics.
* The ultra-poisonous, super-long-range, borderline invisible swamp snipers. You may very well have to backtrack just because you had no reason to carry anti-toxic moss up until this point.
* Terrible bonfire placement. Either hidden away behind a secret wall or so far down a fork that there's no way to know a priori if you'll find one going down either path.
* Speaking of forks, there's no obvious beaten path so it's real easy to wander into places you're not meant to be in.
* Those two asshole dragonbow snipers in Anor Londo. You know the ones.
* Half the ghosts, especially that goddamned banshee.
* Enemy resistances and weaknesses are completely arbitrary. Half the time armored units will be super resistant to slashing and super weak to blunt, the other half they'll have completely average or unusual resistances.

Dark Souls doesn't even try to pretend it respects the player.

[Firewind]

Re: Iga leaves Konami

Might as well through in the very high likelihood if you being stunlocked, or an animation glitching out. I lost count of the number of times a roll glitched and flung me off a ledge or cliff to my death in Dark Souls. That game was just a buggy mess amination-wise and impossible to play without a pad. Plus an action game locked at 30FPS is just urgh when you need exact timing.