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These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adaptable

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  • These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adaptable

    Hmmm, you know, mew, when you actually combine western gameplay with eastern/Japanese artstyles and themes, it actually produces more flavors of entertainment in a easy to pick up and play enviornment, mew.

    I guess it's kind of like how fighting games are niche compared to shooters, because they are more difficulty to play at optimal levels.



    But ya the thing is, that the industry is so westerns, and the Japanese/eastern follow the western pattern so much, that they don't
    really "interpret" gameplay and entertainment correctly (which is why RPGs like FFXIII-2, that tried to be like western videogame design, end up
    being very lost and have an identity crisis. They don't know what gameplay to use and what gameplay to cut out, as well as content, themes ands tuff.
    And like FFXIII, it tried to be too linear and misintepret how new RPGs would play, abandoning the formulas and elements that made RPGs good in the first place, mew. The same could be said for any genre. )

    The thing is, western designers are also very closed minded in their designs too, catering too much to a specific audience, instead of thinking of more possibilities, more ways to play, and more options to allow players to play how they want to play.



    So ya, mew, I guess the industry is like wrestling with the debate of "how developers think something should be played" vs. "how players want to play something" vs. "how many options and variety and diversity should be included in videogame design and stuff".

    But back to shooters, I think their capabilities really aren't fully explored because developers are following a cookie cutter format for all categories of their design, which is why their stuff caters to few, and only modders can really produce and adapt things more to their liking.
    but the things is, developers have the tools to provide more ways to play and more ways something can be experienced, but they treat design like a cereal box, too uniform and not really providing more options and ways to play things, shooters and other things too, mew.

    That's why I think shooters may receive a lot of hate (which is reasonable), but at the sametime, they are some of the most played genres, because the
    gameplay and accessibility is there, but the industry is really limited its flavors and not really making all the right choices and not providing choices beyond
    the default choices to make them more diversified, flexible and more options to play them, mew.

    Even the smallest options and features can turn a videogame into a different videogame that may be more to people's liking.

    Another example is Nintendo and NSMB, mew. Different genre but it still has that very strict, closed minded, and limiting design that prevents it from being played in more ways how people want to play them (one of the examples being the requirement of the type of controllers for using co-op play. and not allowing players to use more characters from the series. )

    So ya, mew, what do you think about things and how companies really are just like making party kits that are so stiff and strict how things are played and customized, mew? It shouldn't take a mod community to adapt things more to their liking.

    And the issue extends to how developers cut content, then bring back that content in new versions and stuff. Developers are too busy copying the most popular, which is also restrictive in how things are played, and the audiences they are catering to. Not to confuse the subject, this is a combination about shooters, and also the industry as a whole how they are capable of so much yet they narrow their scope too much to the point where they still aren't allowing themselves and the consumers to play their products in more ways and allow more possibilities.

    THis is not to be confused with using copyright characters in other games, this is more about not only diversity of playable protagonists, but also the rules and ways things are played (such as option between 3rd person view and 1st person view as minor example).

    And it's not like developers are incapable of providing more options, more diversity and more ways to play, but it's like how a food place might say "okay you can buy this food, but THIS is the only way you're going to eat it. And THIS is the only way you can treat it."

    This also holds true to developers that are so stuck on tradition, that they don't look beyond those boundaries, they don't bother to take things further and establish a higher standard of options, flexibility and ways to play their products.


    Another example is how developers are trying to merge difficulty levels (realism vs. arcade) instead of allowing players the option to go more realism without needing to carry the arcade rule elements (and vice versa).

    A basic example is how Tomb Raider, despite having some survival elements, is going to have regenerating health, which simulator/realism fans don't want, and there might not be option to switch it off. or Oblivion and Skyrim, the compass HUD can't be turned off on consoles.


    TLDR: The industry is being too uniform and restricting with their designs, content, target audiences, and options.

  • #2
    Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

    I don't think every game needs multiplayer.
    I don't think every game neeeds co-op.

    Homer Simpson thinks monkeys make everything better, maybe you do, too.

    So long as they're not attached to EA, Activision or THQ I tend to trust the developer's decision on which audiences they want to reach and how they want to reach them.

    ME3's co-op, while decent, adds nothing to the main purchase whatsoever. Now Bioware is adding it to each game by EA's mandate of "monkeys make everything better." It was also EA that thought stripping out every playable race and forcing a voiced protagonist into Dragon Age 2 was also a great idea, turns out it turned a lot of players off how grew to like the franchise by Origins.

    Now Bioware polls their forums asking them how they want the next game to be made. Its fucking stupid and pathetic they even have to ask when all they have to do is look back and Baldur's Gate, KOTOR and DA:O for the answers. Fact is Casey Hudson and other directors/producers in the studio don't have the balls to say no to EA and their two year timetables - Meanwhile Eidos Montreal, Bethesda Game Studios, Arkane Studios, Irrational Games and many others take their sweet time and release the game they wanted to make - focus groups and committees be damned.

    What's flabbergasting about Bioware is even after all this asking and polling, they don't fucking listen to half of it. They now claim creating assets for multiple playable races in a single player campaign would cost too much money (read: bullshit) and the protagonist would be less applealing for not being a blabbermouth (again, bullshit).

    I'm just tired of seeing some of these studios decay to fill out checkboxes the corporate higher-ups think need filled. But you know what, some studios die and reform into other, smaller studios that find the right publisher and go on making the kinds of games they used to make. That works for me. I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware's founders emerged at Obsidian or their own new studio in the next years after exiting EA.

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    • #3
      Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

      Originally posted by jenova_9 View Post
      TLDR: The industry is being too uniform and restricting with their designs, content, target audiences, and options.
      Those videos are an insult to all things L4D. But, to address your rambling point, I can tell you that you are not incorrect. People put a lot of money on the table to have a video game made and unless they see that money multiply they wont do it a second time. Some things are called safe bets for a reason. While new franchises are often very rewarding for the people developing it, they don't typically get their way unless they're also the ones funding the project. Of course there's always another side to the coin, which would be id Software, who does whatever the fuck they want.

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      • #4
        Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

        Really the point that J9 was trying to make (while using it at an excuse to post Neptunia videos) is one of the reasons why the Indie market is really taking off. While a lot of devs will blatantly cash in on safe bets either by constantly remaking or bringing out sequels for games from a single IP purely because it's popular (Nintendo, KOEI, Capcom, Ubi Soft, Square-Enix) or just by not taking any risks whatsoever (EA, Blizzard/Activision, Zynga, just about any Japanese developer not called Square-Enix), or by pushing a stupidly unrealistic turnaround and rushing games through (EA, Activision), a number of devs are slowly learning from the indie market and actually not rushing games.

        I wouldn't label the industry at being too uniform right now, especially with the flourishing indie gaming scene. Of course the big budget games aren't going to take much of a risk. The Call of Duties and the FIFAs and the Halos will sell, they will always sell because they hit very large and lucrative demographics and they have huge advertising budgets and campaigns.But once you start filtering out those games, you do start seeing signs that the game industry might move away from that in the next few years.
        Rahal Gerrant - Balmung - 188 DRK
        Reiko Takahashi
        - Balmung - 182 AST, 191 BLM, 182 SCH, 188 SMN
        Haters Gonna Hate



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        • #5
          Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

          Those videos are an insult to all things L4D.
          You see that opinion is a fine example of how developers have a one track opinion on things, which is why most developers don't think outside of their tastes and consider the tastes of other gamers and ways it could make their product better with more options and features, instead of just catering to one taste, mew.

          And people don't have to play that way if they don't want, but more options and ways to play and more freedom leads to appealing to more audiences and more ways to play.
          (like a deck of cards)


          But, to address your rambling point, I can tell you that you are not incorrect.
          People put a lot of money on the table to have a video game made and unless they see that money multiply they wont do it a second time. Some things are called safe bets for a reason. While new franchises are often very rewarding for the people developing it, they don't typically get their way unless they're also the ones funding the project. Of course there's always another side to the coin, which would be id Software, who does whatever the fuck they want.
          shame that Id Software really hasn't made anything appealing since I think Quake 3? Well I guess it drives the point that there are many in the industry that don't have a clue what they are doing,
          what the consumers as a whole want,
          and how to cater to more people, instead of less people, without compromising features and without reducing options how to play it.
          and how they can broaden appeal without having to spend more money.

          I mean really, mew, there are projects that pour money than smaller budget developments, and smaller developments manage to get more done AND with lesser hardware too ( for example, Resident Evil Outbreak.)


          Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
          What's flabbergasting about Bioware is even after all this asking and polling, they don't fucking listen to half of it. They now claim creating assets for multiple playable races in a single player campaign would cost too much money (read: bullshit) and the protagonist would be less appealing for not being a blabbermouth (again, bullshit).
          Well ya I agree about that bad stuff and excuses they are making now, they are so clueless. It seems the only few companies that understand more choices, more freedom and more options for the players is Bethesda in regards to The Elder Scrolls (which casualized some things a bit, but still true to its open nature and more open possibilities than most in the industry, which is why it's more appealing to more masses than just certain audience. )

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          • #6
            Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

            tl;dr:
            * AAA production values
            * Originality
            * Fun

            Choose two.

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            • #7
              Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

              I'm still extremely surprised (and disappointed) H.O.T.D. didn't get an FPS RPG game.
              sigpic
              "In this world, the one who has the most fun is the winner!" C.B.
              Prishe's Knight 2004-Forever.

              その目だれの目。

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              • #8
                Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

                I really do think co-op shooter games are probably an under-served and upcoming game genre. It could use a little innovation beyond simply Call of Duty's Zombies, and bland offerings from Mass Effect 3, Gears of War, and Uncharted. Oh, and Left 4 Dead should be mentioned as its own thing since it's unrepentantly a co-op shooter.


                Icemage

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                • #9
                  Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

                  Originally posted by jenova_9 View Post
                  You see that opinion is a fine example of how developers have a one track opinion on things, which is why most developers don't think outside of their tastes and consider the tastes of other gamers and ways it could make their product better with more options and features, instead of just catering to one taste, mew.
                  Art is about appreciation. It's not about what you want, it's about what's been put in front of you; the story it tells, the subtext, the context, how it was made, and who made it. You can't customize somebody's work to suit your personal wants.

                  shame that Id Software really hasn't made anything appealing since I think Quake 3?
                  Pretty much.

                  And whether indie games are taking off is debatable. I haven't touched them, although I know some people who have, although more like myself who haven't. In my opinion, if you have the budget for an indie game, just write a book.

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                  • #10
                    Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

                    Originally posted by Icemage View Post
                    I really do think co-op shooter games are probably an under-served and upcoming game genre. It could use a little innovation beyond simply Call of Duty's Zombies, and bland offerings from Mass Effect 3, Gears of War, and Uncharted. Oh, and Left 4 Dead should be mentioned as its own thing since it's unrepentantly a co-op shooter.


                    Icemage
                    One Co-Op Shooter I have been playing a lot lately is Payday: The Heist. Funnily enough it is an indie game by a Swedish Studio called Overkill Software. Basically it's an objective based FPS game (like Left for Dead) and each stage has randomised events (like Left for Dead) so you are unlikely to have any two heists go off in the same way. There are a lot of random events that can happen as well that cause things to go differently.

                    It's very cheap on Steam and actually worth looking into if you like the genre.
                    Rahal Gerrant - Balmung - 188 DRK
                    Reiko Takahashi
                    - Balmung - 182 AST, 191 BLM, 182 SCH, 188 SMN
                    Haters Gonna Hate



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                    • #11
                      Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

                      Originally posted by DakAttack
                      Art is about appreciation. It's not about what you want, it's about what's been put in front of you; the story it tells, the subtext, the context, how it was made, and who made it. You can't customize somebody's work to suit your personal wants.
                      Right. But once you showcase your work to the masses, it's no longer yours. There's always disconnect between the vision in your head and the vision they reconstructed in their own heads.

                      Now, I'm not saying those mods are good, because they made my eyes and ears bleed. But it's kind of funny to call them an insult to L4D when Valve is built upon and encourages modding.

                      EDIT: It's also funny that you bring up id Software.
                      Originally posted by John Carmack
                      I still remember the first time I saw the original Star Wars DOOM mod. Seeing how someone had put the death star into our game felt so amazingly cool. I was so proud of what had been made possible, and I was completely sure that making games that could serve as a canvas for other people to work on was a valid direction.
                      And whether indie games are taking off is debatable.
                      It depends on what's meant by them taking off. It's hard to deny that it's easier to enjoy success by going indie now than 15 years ago. Whether indie games are pulling in a significant amount of money/sales/fans compared to non-indie games is debatable, but then again the production costs are often infinitely smaller.
                      In my opinion, if you have the budget for an indie game, just write a book.
                      I'm curious what's your reasoning behind this. Good programmers are rare as it is, good programmers that also make good writers are even rarer.
                      Last edited by Armando; 12-02-2012, 11:52 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

                        Originally posted by DakAttack View Post
                        Art is about appreciation. It's not about what you want, it's about what's been put in front of you; the story it tells, the subtext, the context, how it was made, and who made it. You can't customize somebody's work to suit your personal wants.
                        .
                        mew!!!! I spilt my cereal reading that!! >< Art is about what we want out of art itself. Art is universal. People can craft art out of art, but there are no rules to how art is used, even if it borrows and creates a modified version of someone else's art, it still is art, art you can appreciate MORE if it's the kind of art you want and prefer, mew!

                        So ya, like mentioned here, things like mods and things with more options and ways to play are valuable styles of art and openness that leads to greater entertainment and greater levels of art that only one can personally understand! Because people have different tastes in art and their own valuable ideas how they can make that art better for themselves (and others that like that modified version of art)

                        So it's more of a win/win situation instead of developers dictating what they think is the best art for people, only people can personally decide what is better art to themselves.

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                        • #13
                          Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

                          Originally posted by Armando View Post
                          Right. But once you showcase your work to the masses, it's no longer yours. There's always disconnect between the vision in your head and the vision they reconstructed in their own heads.
                          If you created it, of course it's still yours. Just take a walking tour at any gallery and your guide will put a name to every painting. I agree that there's a difference in how people will see your work, but in no way are they altering it and claiming it's then superior to the original. Regardless of their opinion, they still appreciate it. Altering somebody's work doesn't create new work, nor does it show that you appreciated the original, but that you simply have no respect for the author or their efforts.

                          I'm curious what's your reasoning behind this. Good programmers are rare as it is, good programmers that also make good writers are even rarer.
                          Good programmers might have great technical ideas, but an engine itself isn't a game.

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                          • #14
                            Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

                            Originally posted by DakAttack View Post
                            Altering somebody's work doesn't create new work, nor does it show that you appreciated the original, but that you simply have no respect for the author or their efforts.
                            Its sometimes fair to say, however, that the creator never fully understands why people liked the creation to start with.

                            Han Solo is supposed to be a shifty scoundrel who gradually turns good. That's who he was in 1977. And yet in 1997 now its Greedo that shot first rather than Han just blasting him outright. Its Lucas' right to change his own movie but he's never really given a good reason for why he made this change that was so small but still so character-defining. In 1977 Han's a take-no-shit badass rogue who meets his match in Leia and turns goo. In 1997 he's a reactionary doormat.

                            Its the same situation with Metroid Other M. Here we have a game that doesn't even acknowledge the efforts of a team that carried Metroid on consoles for a decade because Sakamoto was not involved with Retro's games. It may not seem important to the casual fan, but Metroid is one of the few Nintendo franchises with a linear continuity and Samus is an evolving character - Mario, Kirby and Link are not like this. Mario, Link and Kirby live in constant reset like the Simpsons where there's a story, emotional growth and none of that matters by the next game.

                            The common issue of Other M and Star Wars is the diminishing of a character who was already well-defined. For Star Wars, that was Darth Vader and despite whatever other complaints people have about the prequel trilogy, its demystifying The Force for no good reason and the crybaby Anakin turned into during Episode II. Why Midichlorians and Akakin's immaculate conception? What did these things add to Star Wars? Yes Anakin's mother getting killed by Sandpeople is tragic, but does Anakin have to have this scene where he's a pathetic, blubbering mess after murdering all the sandpeople and blubbering into Padme's chest.

                            For Other M, its explaining Adam Malkovich's importance to Samus, which was already explained succinctly in another game and ends up diminishing Samus, the cast and Fusion as a result. Super Metroid and the Prime trilogy are shielded from the taint of Other M just by having a strong legacy.

                            Creators may have the right to overexplain things, but it doesn't make overexplaining something good. I can't really blame anyone that just replaces Episode II with the Clone Wars series or strikes it from their memory entirely. Sometimes, you have to had things over to the people that understand why people like a franchise rather than pridefully keep the reins in your hands. This is kinda why some people think Star Wars might actually be better in Disney's hands.

                            Say what you want about Disney, but they wield nostalgia to great effect.
                            Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 12-02-2012, 06:09 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: These videos might explain why group co-op shooters are so popular, and so adapta

                              Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                              This is kinda why some people think Star Wars might actually be better in Disney's hands.
                              I thought people thought that because they judged Disney to be the lesser of the two evils. (Which, of course, says volumes about Star Wars fans' attitudes towards Lucas.)
                              Originally posted by Armando
                              No one at Square Enix has heard of Occam's Razor.
                              Originally posted by Armando
                              Nintendo always seems to have a legion of haters at the wings ready to jump in and prop up straw men about hardware and gimmicks and casuals.
                              Originally posted by Taskmage
                              GOD IS MIFFED AT AMERICA

                              REPENT SINNERS OR AT LEAST GIVE A NONCOMMITTAL SHRUG

                              GOD IS AMBIVALENT ABOUT FURRIES

                              THE END IS COMING ONE OF THESE DAYS WHEN GOD GETS AROUND TO IT
                              Originally posted by Taskmage
                              However much I am actually smart, I got that way by confronting how stupid I am.
                              Matthew 16:15

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