Wii U Discussion

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Smart TVs are an evolutionary dead end, so I have no idea where you're going with this statement. People aren't going to be happy relearning how to use every function on their TV every time they upgrade (any more than they're happy trying to relearn everything when they buy a new phone). Adding more fringe features to TVs, especially when said features are implemented in totally different ways by different manufacturers, is a non-starter for the commercial market.

I'm just gonna focus on this since I've heard you argued some of the rest before.

You have no idea where I'm going with smart TVs and yet you go on to point out tablets, which pose the same exact threat. I know you like the play the "general populace is dumb" card in these discussions, but half the planet owns a smartphone now and the world does not implode when an iOS or Android update comes along (Apple Maps notwithstanding).

Having Netflix and Hulu pre-programmed into the TV is a non-starter? A TV that's already got apps in it and games, along with everything else that does, is a threat I would not underestimate. There was a time when we all believed arcades would be around forever because many coin-op machines had an edge over consoles in terms of power and then one day consoles outpaced them. There was a time when PCs were the same way to consoles, then the new wave of consoles came along to bring that into question each time.

Now there's market where graphics and horsepower are sometimes the least valued things in games - particularly with the PC, tablet and smartphone. All it took was more people having access to the internet and services like Steam and iOS to have a boom in the indie development community and now things in the gaming industry are really starting to change.

The threat is real. The storm is coming. Sony and MS would not be offering up their anemic versions of smartphones and tablets were this not the case. Sony and MS both took nearly five year to muster a proper response to what Apple and Samsung are now dominating. Nintendo, as always, plays the outisider and by their own rules, but if Wii U and 3DS are any indication, they know where the wind is blowing or the Wii U wouldn't be able to remove itself from the TV equation.

Sony and MS are going to go butt heads with Smart TVs while Nintendo knows it likely something they might not be able to compete with.

[Firewind]

Re: Wii U Discussion

I tend to follow my personal rule with new console releases:

Never buy a console until a year after release.

Why? It allows time for hardware issues to be ironed out and software I am actually interested in to be released. It also lets me see what the competition is coming up with.

I broke that rule with the 3DS and was highly disappointed with the console because of it. Even today I play far more DS games than 3DS games on it and the only 3DS game I still own on it is Harvest Moon Tale of Two Towns (but it's the DS version because there is literally no difference between the two versions). We might be getting Devil Survivor Overclocked some time next year but it's an Atlus game, the only time you can ever play a region locked Atlus game in Europe without having to wait for several years after release is to pirate it, then pray it might eventually come out.

Anyway, fanboy flailing about technical specifications aside, I have no plans to buy a Wii U until next year. While there are games coming out for it that I do like, I would just rather play the wait and see game with the next generation of consoles, especially since console gaming at the moment is really failing to hold my interest, especially compared to what Steam and iOS (for handheld gaming) is offering in the Indie market.

[Feba]

Re: Wii U Discussion

->bitching about the frame rate
->blaming the CPU

Yeah, this guy knows what he's talkin' 'bout!

I've got no horse in this race; I'm probably not buying any consoles this generation, but this guy's criticisms are silly, to say the least.

On the more broad subject of the Wii U being too weak, that's what everyone said about the Wii as well. Nintendo, their shareholder, and the industry don't really give a fuck.

[Icemage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

If we've not heard anything about the next Xbox or Playstation by now, I can't be sure there will be new iterations this time next year.

The Xbox 360 was announced about 5 months before it was released, at E3. The fact that 3rd party developers are already working on next generation hardware is the worst-kept secret in gaming, so my past prediction of holiday 2013 looks to be spot-on accurate for the release of at least one, if not both, machines for Microsoft and Sony.

Additionally, a lot rides on their ability to carry over those networks, digital content, achievements and such into the new consoles and upgraded networks seamlessly. Sony is looking to fall on their swords again in regards to BC and MS might keep compatibility.

Achievements already cross over between Windows 8 and Xbox 360, so I doubt Microsoft has any issues on that front. Trophies work seamlessly now between PS3 and Vita, so that's a non-issue as well.

Backward compatibility is probably an issue for everyone at this point. Sony's probably got the biggest hurdle since they have the weirdest architecture, but they've probably benefited the most from this generation lasting longer than typical, as a more powerful processor can theoretically emulate the PS3 code (more or less); certainly in their shoes I would have been working on some form of emulation years ago - ditto goes for Microsoft. I suspect that Sony's purchase of Gaikai means that they're going to try for a cloud-based streaming service to sidestep hardware compatibility at some point, though I don't think the infrastructure is in place currently to adequately support such a technology.

If digital games like this gen's get left behind I'm going to have some serious problems with that.

We're already seeing some of that. Some of the Wii content doesn't transfer to the Wii U. Lost Winds for instance (which I happen to own on my Wii) is one of the known titles that refuses to make the digital transition. This is basically the backward compatibility problem all over again, minus the discs.

I also don't think Sony and MS will go head to head. They clearly wanted to see how Wii U hit the market this year, which is why I suppose they've not talked about their consoles yet. They probably won't launch against each other.

Why would you assume this? Microsoft had a huge advantage in launching first with the Xbox 360. The only reason it didn't work out better for them was because they rushed the hardware design with a fatal flaw (RRoD), but it took years and a ton of money and resources for Sony to catch up, while Nintendo just skated along on hype (and paid the price for THAT later in terms of developer abandonment). First to market means that more of your friends are likely to own the system, and the power of peer pressure can't be overstated.

But really, i think next gen might be it for the home console. Sony and MS's big holy grail has been to become the all-in-one entertainment centers of the living room and the advent of Smart TVs kinda fucks with that real hard. Its not an aspiration Nintendo has been as aggressive in perusing.

Xbox Live can't stay the way it is if it hopes to survive against Smart TVs. Gating content like Netflix behind a subscription fee would just be suicide. Its suicide now. I'm sure Sony will keep pushing BD, even though it won one war to lose another. Nintendo and Sony are in a better position to compete with Smart TVs just due to their online approach, but the Wii U can remove itself from the TV equation and PS3's way around that is spotty and expensive (i.e. Vita remote play).

Smart TVs are an evolutionary dead end, so I have no idea where you're going with this statement. People aren't going to be happy relearning how to use every function on their TV every time they upgrade (any more than they're happy trying to relearn everything when they buy a new phone). Adding more fringe features to TVs, especially when said features are implemented in totally different ways by different manufacturers, is a non-starter for the commercial market.

Dedicated home consoles are more threatened by the increasing power of tablets, in the same sense that dedicated handhelds are threatened by smart phones. It won't eliminate the market completely, but it probably will shrink the market.

As for the Vita -> PS3 remote play, the PS3 is the bottleneck there. As soon as the PS4 (or whatever it's called) gets released, I expect Sony to come out with a firmware update for the Vita which greatly streamlines the Remote Play function.

PC gaming seems safe, but MS seems to think they can shut down other services by not offering Windows 7 Direct X11. If MS wants to go to war with Steam and Origin, its their funeral. No one likes Windows 8 or Surface.

Agreed. Microsoft is trying to pull another Games For Windows Live maneuver with Win8, and no one is buying their BS this time.

All in all, I think Nintendo was right to get the Wii U out now as the future looks really hazy for consoles.

Incorrect. Nintendo should have released the Wii U two to three years ago. That would have been a much smarter move instead of sitting on that pile of cash they had. Granted, releasing it now is certainly better than releasing it next year, but this is something they should have done a long time ago.


Icemage

[Kailea]

Re: Wii U Discussion

citation on the "poor port" please?

there is no citation needed, I can see it myself -.- Teeken Tag runs fine, Assassin's Creed III runs fine, Mass Effect 3, again runs fine, CoD BO2, does not.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

So excuse me if I seem a bit jaded. I know there are folks who are perfectly happy with Nintendo's stuff over the last decade and good for them - I don't begrudge your enjoyment. But don't try and sell me their snake oil 'cause I'm not buying it.

The reason I'm most excited about the Wii U of late is the eShop is in a position to do a lot of good for indies. As someone that doesn't want to turn to Steam for every indie game if a traditional controller at the couch is preferable, I like that Nintendo's change is more in-line with Steam and iOS. Indies get to set their own prices, have their own sales on the storefront and Nintendo is not charging developers for patches.

This is something EVERY digital storefront needs to be doing. PSN doesn't do it, XBL doesn't either. Sony wants you to basically sell your soul and your IP exclusively to them and then they promise to waive patch fees. All those great games by Thatgamecompany? The people behind them won't see a dime after a point and that's sad because that was the deal. MS is especially nasty with their $40k patch/authentication fees for developers

Its so bad Capcom resorts to on-disc DLC to have it authenticated on the first go on both platforms rather than get whammied with it later, Its also why developers sign on for exclusive DLC (such as Skyrim's) to avoid the fees. If you're an indie like Phil Fish - creator of Fez - you may never be able to afford to patch your own game.

I've wanted to get Fez because its a nice, clever game. It just happens to have a killer bug that could easily be fixed if Steve Ballmer had a soul.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

"Fanboy" does tend to be a popular word in Nintendo, ahem, "discussions".

Just saying.

[Malacite]

Re: Wii U Discussion

citation on the "poor port" please?

And we all know BBQ is raging Nintendo fanboy, it's hardly a secret. Again, for the record, I don't hate Nintendo. I just haven't seen anything truly compelling from them since the N64, which is really depressing. There have been games here & there that I loved (like the Metroid Prime games & Twilight Princess) but as an overall platform, the last few consoles have just underwhelmed me horribly and I'm getting sick of being disappointed by them year after year, while Sony & MS keep churning out mega blockbusters and offer much better online functionality.

So excuse me if I seem a bit jaded. I know there are folks who are perfectly happy with Nintendo's stuff over the last decade and good for them - I don't begrudge your enjoyment. But don't try and sell me their snake oil 'cause I'm not buying it.

[Kailea]

Re: Wii U Discussion

I like how the fact that CoD BO2 was a rushed poor port was just glossed over -.- and the fanboy card was just tossed around instead.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

I'm sure the Wii U will hold its own just fine on the market for the next year. It's definitely more powerful than the 360 and PS3 (if not by much), and that advantage should hold true until the rest of the next generation arrives in terms of computational power.

The big question marks are whether Nintendo can build an online multiplayer community in 12 months before the new consoles arrive to draw everyone into their already-existing network of Friends on XBL and PSN, and whether 3rd party developers will stay with Nintendo's machine if it can't run the next generation middleware (Unreal Engine 4, etc.).


Icemage

It really depends on a lot. If we've not heard anything about the next Xbox or Playstation by now, I can't be sure there will be new iterations this time next year. Additionally, a lot rides on their ability to carry over those networks, digital content, achievements and such into the new consoles and upgraded networks seamlessly. Sony is looking to fall on their swords again in regards to BC and MS might keep compatibility.

If digital games like this gen's get left behind I'm going to have some serious problems with that.

I also don't think Sony and MS will go head to head. They clearly wanted to see how Wii U hit the market this year, which is why I suppose they've not talked about their consoles yet. They probably won't launch against each other.

But really, i think next gen might be it for the home console. Sony and MS's big holy grail has been to become the all-in-one entertainment centers of the living room and the advent of Smart TVs kinda fucks with that real hard. Its not an aspiration Nintendo has been as aggressive in perusing.

Xbox Live can't stay the way it is if it hopes to survive against Smart TVs. Gating content like Netflix behind a subscription fee would just be suicide. Its suicide now. I'm sure Sony will keep pushing BD, even though it won one war to lose another. Nintendo and Sony are in a better position to compete with Smart TVs just due to their online approach, but the Wii U can remove itself from the TV equation and PS3's way around that is spotty and expensive (i.e. Vita remote play).

PC gaming seems safe, but MS seems to think they can shut down other services by not offering Windows 7 Direct X11. If MS wants to go to war with Steam and Origin, its their funeral. No one likes Windows 8 or Surface.

All in all, I think Nintendo was right to get the Wii U out now as the future looks really hazy for consoles.

[Icemage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

I'm sure the Wii U will hold its own just fine on the market for the next year. It's definitely more powerful than the 360 and PS3 (if not by much), and that advantage should hold true until the rest of the next generation arrives in terms of computational power.

The big question marks are whether Nintendo can build an online multiplayer community in 12 months before the new consoles arrive to draw everyone into their already-existing network of Friends on XBL and PSN, and whether 3rd party developers will stay with Nintendo's machine if it can't run the next generation middleware (Unreal Engine 4, etc.).


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Digital Foundry finds that the Wii U even significantly underperforms the PS3 version, let alone the 360 version of CoD Blops 2.

I watched the video, read the article. The BF3 guyis still spinning it under his mutliplayer lens. Its kind of his mistake for playing these games on consoles - if his concern is being able to play with more people PC has always been the answer for that.

I've met people that swear by the Wii U version. Its not my thing, really, but they say the like the GamePad implementation, local play and the more relaxed online community. If that's all you wanted, more power to you.

Its kind of a mistake to think next gen is going to be won by raw horsepower and setpiece spectacles anyway - as it did not win this or any generation, for that matter. I don't really buy consoles for power, but convenience and MS makes that a little wonky while Sony goes out of their way to be inconvenient. PC used to be the least convenient thing, but now stuff like Steam almost does all the work for you on installation. I've yet to hear about Wii U being inconvenient (aside from that first patch and even that backgrounds, as i understand it).

People buy consoles for different reasons. Nothing Mal presented really concerns me or dissuades me. I know these are early games and some of them likely rushed ports not fully optimized for the console. This happens with any console. But it seems like TTT2, Mass Effect 3 and others perform just fine while some don't. I don't find it a point of concern yet.

If it keeps on happening to this point next year, then we have something to really worry about.

I don't see how it being a launch title is relevant; what IS relevant, is various devs are complaining about the Wii U being difficult to work with (though to be fair, the same was said of PS3) and the system can barely handle one of the biggest selling franchises in the industry. That's a problem, whether you like CoD or not.

Some developers say Wii U is hard to work with.
Some developers say Wii U is great to work with.
Some of those developers haven't released a Wii U game yet.

Some developers say PSN is great for indies.
Some developers say PSN is shit for indies.
Some developers say 360 is great for indies.
Some developers say 360 is shit to indies.
Most indies find more success on iOS and Steam.

I don't care what "some" people say. Its seems its rather mixed.

[Malacite]

Re: Wii U Discussion

I've been following TheRedDragon for a while now, he's no hick. You're just a blind Nintendo fanboy & we all know it.


I don't see how it being a launch title is relevant; what IS relevant, is various devs are complaining about the Wii U being difficult to work with (though to be fair, the same was said of PS3) and the system can barely handle one of the biggest selling franchises in the industry. That's a problem, whether you like CoD or not.

Quite frankly, if it can't handle CoD, I have to question the reasoning for putting a game like Bayonetta 2 on it. Again, Red pointed out that there are some advantages to how the system runs and so I'm willing to bet let's say a year or so from now we'll start seeing devs really using the system to its fullest.


But for now, between these damning stories and the lack of games that grab my interest, Nintendo can keep their snake oil. I'd rather nab up a 3DS XL if one goes on sale dirt cheap for Boxing Week, though even that I'm not so sure of; MML3 got cancelled, and I refuse to buy anything from Capcom until they start producing stuff I actually like again. Really the only major purchase on the horizon for me currently is SC2: HotS in March, and I may get that as an early B-Day gift

[Icemage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Well, as mentioned in the video, Black Ops 2 barely held at 30 FPS, and even dipped under at several points.

That does not bode well when a major seller like that can't perform on your console. The Wii-U graphically is about up to par with the PS3/360, but still under performs overall. So basically all that money is into the stupid Tablet controller. Now, most people (including myself) I imagine get Nintendo systems for their 1st party stuff. But at this point, for $300+, no dice. I don't care how epic the new Zelda is, no f'ing way. Maybe when it's $150 or less, but if I'm gonna drop that kind of cash, I'd rather have the new Xbox or PS (assuming Sony doesn't go bankrupt...)

I think it's too early to tell. These are launch titles, and almost every launch title for every console is a poorly-optimized mess. Early 360 games had similar problems. So did a lot of early PS3 games.

You could certainly point to the performance issues as being anecdotal evidence that the Wii U's internal hardware is only somewhat more powerful than the 360 or PS3, and you'd probably be right. But it really depends on what sort of games we see moving forward. From what I'm hearing, as well as what evidence I'm seeing online, the Wii U's CPU does have some design challenges associated with it.

I suspect some game types will have bigger problems than others with the Wii U. Sandbox games like GTA V, open-world games like The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, and games with intense physics like Far Cry 3 will probably suffer to some extent on the Wii U if the next PlayStation and Xbox end up as powerful as rumors suggest.

Smaller games that don't run full 3D environments and/or massive amounts of moving objects will probably be feature-identical on the Wii U, however.

We'll know more by this time next year, when presumably we'll have the rest of the new consoles on the market.


- - - Updated - - -

Some hick yammering in a video over shit he heard while playing Battlefield 3 does not count as investigative journalism.

This, on the other hand, is just blatant fanboyism.

Digital Foundry on Wii U Black Ops 2

Digital Foundry finds that the Wii U even significantly underperforms the PS3 version at times, let alone the 360 version of CoD Blops 2.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Well, as mentioned in the video, Black Ops 2 barely held at 30 FPS, and even dipped under at several points.

Some hick yammering in a video over shit he heard while playing Battlefield 3 does not count as investigative journalism.

The Wii-U graphically is about up to par with the PS3/360, but still under performs overall.

If we judged consoles on their launch line-ups alone, PS2 would have never been a successful console for games. As I pointed out before games like Tekken Tag Tournament 2, Rayman Legends, Super Mario Bros. U and a number of others do not seem to share these problem. When you get a new console or handheld on the market, rushed ports tend to happen. Ubi Soft tends to be the king on rushed ports. How you fuck up old games like Spinter Cell Chaos Theory or Rayman 2 on 3DS is beyond me, but they did.

TES IV Oblivion launched close to the 360 launch. It looks like a last gen game standing next to Skyrim. For that matter, so does Dragon Age Origins compared to Mass Effect 3. Do Wiis launch games even touch the technical brilliance of Mario Galaxy 2, Xenoblade or Skyward Sword? No. Consoles libraries have to start somewhere, the fact just is the bar is set higher for Nintendo than anyone else for whatever reason and when MS or Sony have a few turds in their launch lineup no one bats an eye.

As for the controller. Its comfortable. If you can't fathom a use for touch screens after eight years of DS and five years of smartphones and about four years of tablets, you're beyond help.