Wii U Discussion

[Pwnagraphic]

Re: Wii U Discussion

If you're going to quote people you could at least try to follow the conversation BBQ.

But really, enough is enough. You have a hard-on for Nintendo. We know, we get it, it's difficult not to when you keep waving your throbbing Nintendo induced erection in our faces every goddamn day.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Wii U Discussion

The "gimmick" argument is so weak, tiresome, outdated and vague in the face of what the whole world is doing right now that I'll honestly call bullshit each time I see it.

And I'll tell you straight up it doesn't matter that your Nintendo goggles let you dismiss it because it's the primary reason I haven't enjoyed the system and am writing off the next one as well.

You can stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't matter, but that doesn't change the fact that it is heavily influencing my decision of whether or not to purchase Nintendo's console.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

The "gimmick" argument is so weak, tiresome, outdated and vague in the face of what the whole world is doing right now that I'll honestly call bullshit each time I see it, Cid.

Pretty much everything has a camera, infrared sensor, accelerometer, GPS and touch screen or touch surface on it now. 3DS, Wii U, Vita, PS3, PS4 and 360 have some or most of these things - Hell, Xbox 360 has Smartglass integration right now and its going to be a factor in the next platform. That and social network integration on all of these things.

At this point, no one is forcing anything - much of the dust has settled on this tech and no one is taking away your old input methods.

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And Armando's right - the likes of EA and Bllizzard pull this DRM bullshit and millions give them a pass, worse is plenty just accept it - showing the big third party publishers what BS they can get away with for years to come. Nintendo does motion controls that don't work for one or two games and people rage on for years about it without a frame of reference to the present.

[Armando]

Re: Wii U Discussion

What that has to do with input methods, however, I have no idea.

I was the one that brought it up. I was just pointing out that a lot of the times devs do something stupid (i.e. DRM) and get a pass on it. But a dev does something stupid on Nintendo hardware and it's the hardware that's at fault, not the devs. E.g. Twilight Princess had shitty motion controls, so motion controls suck.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Wii U Discussion

If you're going to quote people you could at least try to follow the conversation BBQ.

But really, enough is enough. You have a hard-on for Nintendo. We know, we get it, it's difficult not to when you keep waving your throbbing Nintendo induced erection in our faces every goddamn day.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

They're still doing bullshit with their input devices on the WiiU.

I dunno about you, but in my old age I've become extremely cranky and picky about my game design. I saw the writing on the wall for D3 when they announced the RMAH and immediately wrote it off as something I'd never play.

There are obvious problems with DRM that everyone can see from a mile away because DRM is at least as old as inputting verification codes in for PC games. Make a single player simulation game online only tells me more about your rich white first world businessman problems more than your ability to see the bigger picture for gamers.

What that has to do with input methods, however, I have no idea.

I've also picked up a number of games for the Wii either for my own system or playing them on my friend's and more often than not the input method gets in the way of actually playing the game. Heck, some games have even managed recognized the futility of trying to utilize the gimmicks and resorted to emulating the original NES control scheme because trying to make use of all the gimmicky bullshit is counter-productive.

It infuriates me to see good games cut down by terrible control schemes necessitated by derpy hardware decisions.

Off the top of my head I can only think of two non-VC games on the Wii that used the Wiimote as a traditional controller - New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Metroid Other M.

That's it. Not denying other games might exist for it, but that's really all i can think of before we get to classic controller support.

Aside from, say, poor implementations of motion controls like Okami and Zelda Twilight Princess, I've never once had a problem with motion controls - and I play things from a recliner from a reclinder where I hardly had to ever move. I have to wonder if other people just never bothered to calibrate the controller to its highest sensitivity so movements only ever had to be slight. Some of the best games never even use the infared - like No More Heroes/NMH2 or Skyward Sword. As for pointer controls, I'm actually very disappointed that more games didn't follow Metroid Prime Trilogy's lead and I've lost interest in most first person shooters for the lack of motion control support - its really the next best thing to a mouse and keyboard for consoles.

But none of this has to do much with Wii U, which doesn't seem to have the "problems" you're complaining about.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Wii U Discussion

They're still doing bullshit with their input devices on the WiiU.

I dunno about you, but in my old age I've become extremely cranky and picky about my game design. I saw the writing on the wall for D3 when they announced the RMAH and immediately wrote it off as something I'd never play.

I've also picked up a number of games for the Wii either for my own system or playing them on my friend's and more often than not the input method gets in the way of actually playing the game. Heck, some games have even managed recognized the futility of trying to utilize the gimmicks and resorted to emulating the original NES control scheme because trying to make use of all the gimmicky bullshit is counter-productive.

It infuriates me to see good games cut down by terrible control schemes necessitated by derpy hardware decisions.

[Armando]

Re: Wii U Discussion

All this innovation in input devices hasn't yielded any improvements to the experience, it's just changing things for the sake of changing things. It was an experiment and in my estimation it was a failed one so it's time to go back to input methods that have been perfected for decades.

Alright, I can respect that. But in that case, isn't the Wii U right up your alley? It just seems to me like people make a bigger deal about changes to input methods than changes to game design when they have the same end-result.

Blizzard does something retarded like RMAH and online-only Diablo III? Benefit of the doubt, still buying it, and I'll even put up with it for a while, and continue to play even after it starts to set in that this is a real problem.
Don't like a Nintendo game? No sale. If they just got rid of that gimmicky hardware, I would've liked and bought it.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Wii U Discussion

I'm not sure what the hardware has to do with anything. I can understand Raydeus' dislike for Nintendo - he somehow dislikes all of their IPs, and without those then why would you even own a Nintendo console? But I don't care if the next Mario game has me tweaking a rubber nipple if the gameplay's good.

That's the difference for me in a nutshell. I don't want to tweak rubber nipples, I just want to sit back with a SNES controller and play video games.

All this innovation in input devices hasn't yielded any improvements to the experience, it's just changing things for the sake of changing things. It was an experiment and in my estimation it was a failed one so it's time to go back to input methods that have been perfected for decades.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

And considering Mario Galaxy and Galaxy 2 brought the genre to new heights I'm ready to see what Nintendo has next for 3D Mario.

[Armando]

Re: Wii U Discussion

I'm not sure what the hardware has to do with anything. I can understand Raydeus' dislike for Nintendo - he somehow dislikes all of their IPs, and without those then why would you even own a Nintendo console? But I don't care if the next Mario game has me tweaking a rubber nipple if the gameplay's good.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Wii U Discussion

What, making gimmicky hardware that turns me off from purchasing any of their systems?

Nintendo might not need to go third party, but they could do with some change in focus.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Nintendo will never "go the way of Sega" because Sega was in serious fiscal shit when it went under. Nintendo has ten billion dollars its sitting on and if we at least go by how they're developing games now -and they will always look to find the cheapest way - it would last them til about 2073 by last estimates. Seriously, the way some of these games are made are practically done on an indie level. Staffs of 30 or even 15 or less on their handheld stuff.

Seriously, when Sony is selling off property, when Square-Enix, Capcom and EA consider selling multi-millions a failure - Nintendo is the last company we need to be worried about. If anything, they're proving Nintendo, Atlus and a number of smaller studios and indies right - the AAA model is no longer sustainable the way its being done now. You can speak ill of Activision all you want and, hell, maybe they'll go down with the toxic environment they've created - but big publishers have all be trying to make their games the next Call of Duty like every MMO developer has been trying to make a WoW-killer without success.

Games have gone this route because investors see Activision's success and want that success. Investors will never blame themselves they're wrong, just finger the blame toward whoever is convenient. Do you think I/O and Crystal Dynamics are safe in the Eidos division of SE? Over seven million in combined sales between the latest Hitman and Tomb Raider games and they're blamed in part for a financial loss. Can we not see how genuinely fucked up this is?

And let's not forget the quiet shuttering of a number of Sony studios in the years before other sell-offs we're seeing now.

Things aren't well at EA, either, with John Riccitiello having stepped down after seeing the SimCity backlash, SWTOR fail big, DA2 being a total eyesore in terms of quality and the backlash over ME3. We know why these problems happened - lack of development time, bloated budgets and these contrived anti-consumer practices EA loves to adhere to.

I mean, SimCity doesn't even have a DRM now, according to EA its an MMO. Online Passes no longer exist, they're just "limited editions" now. This is just political wordsmithing at its finest now, there's no intellectual honesty in what EA does.

Right now I only see Capcom doing a serious reassessment of how they've been this gen. When Dragon's Dogma was a success and RE6 was a failure, they at least already had some forsight to have an HD port of RE Revelations. Its almost an admittance that they might have been wrong about RE6. Then you have their forthcoming digital efforts, they expansion of Dragon's Dogma and such. Ducktales Remastered, Tower of Doom re-release, Darkstalkers just recently. Of the companies I have been complaining about it at least seems that in the last year or so Capcom has started to listen.

Oh, and i forgot Sega... probably because no one gives a fuck what Sega does these days. They are that far off the radar. If anyone should even be remotely accused of cashing in on nostalgia for pure attention, its Sega because its only way they get any street cred with gamers now. That and whoring out Sonic for another terrible 3D game.

And this is the industry you want Nintendo to go third party in? You want Nintendo to be like Sega? Fuck that.

I think we need Nintendo as they are more than ever. Perpetuating the idea that they should go third party is as stupid in 2013 as it was in 2003.

[Malacite]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Michael Pachter tore into him a bit too in last week's Pach Attack.

It's a bit of double-edged sword though; one the one hand, you got guys running Nintendo who were actually involved in making games and really care (but as Pachter points out, are also very set in their ways because they're old and those methods are what made them successful) but on the flip side the shareholders are *not* happy at all with Nintendo's performance - they've taken some pretty steep nose dives, most notably after 3DS launched.

Pachter was replying to a question about if and when Nintendo would ever get out of console market and do strictly software like SEGA has and honestly, I think they should. It's actually been a huge plus for SEGA (though they honestly should have sacked Sonic Team years ago... I don't get why they still haven't) and Nintendo could really clean up.

But then, aside from the initial awkwardness of seeing Mario on Xbox or Playstation, they might not like giving up some of the privileges they have now by having their own IPs on their own hardware.

[Icemage]

Re: Wii U Discussion

Found this blog post linked from NeoGAF and it says a lot of harsh (but objectively true) things about Nintendo CEO Satoru Iwata, especially as his performance pertains to the development and rollout of the Wii U:

http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2013/04/02/satoru-iwata-hubris-versus-western-culture/

The blog post is far, far too long to adequately quote here, but it is extensively researched and backed with citations and figures.

A couple of notable excerpts:

For six years, Iwata and Miyamoto preached to us about how game controllers have become too complex with too many buttons, sticks, and gizmos. When you look at the Wii U GamePad, you feel like the last six years of Iwata and Miyamoto preaching about simplifying controllers never even happened.

...

We get to the Wii/DS era, and Iwata hits the jackpot between the years 2006 through 2009. That’s about four years of success. But here’s the question to ask yourself. What did Iwata do after Nintendo made boat loads of money? Where did Iwata invest that money?

If Iwata has been making wise (please emphasize the “wise”) investments, then why has Iwata complained so much about their resources/teams being under major pressure when developing games for 3DS and Wii U? If Iwata was making wise investments with that Wii/DS money in 2009 and 2010, we wouldn’t be complaining about a software drought for Wii U right now.

There's a ton of commentary about the Wii U hardware design, Nintendo's market performance, Nintendo of America/Europe being used as scapegoats, and quite a bit more in the above link. It's a worthwhile read, whether you agree with the premise or not.


Icemage