What SE could do, but won't.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

Besides, as far as I'm concerned FFXI is the best looking, art and visual design wise, MMO game I've ever seen and I personally don't think it needs to change anything.

This is what I came in this thread to say, in a nutshell. I'm happy with the graphics of the game as they are. Some of the things in the game are absolutely breathtaking as is. I'm far from what you'd call a "graphics whore," but the fact that the graphics are reasonably realistic and not stupid (like WoW's) is fine with me and I'm happy. Besides, I love this game because it's fun.

[Omniblast]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

SA you gotta pick up the Orange Box. It is so worth it. I havn't even touched HL2: Ep 2 yet, and I've just been playing constantly with Team Fortress 2 and sometimes Portal. I even played some of Half Life 2 with the portal gun, interesting but sometings don't really work hehe.

TF2 is totally worth it. Portal as well.

[Balfree]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

FFXI's graphics are beautiful, I'd vote for better content, fun events and worthwhile timesinks over graphic updates any day.

[Feba]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

it's easier to not spend the money doing it.

Which was exactly my point. SE could EASILY do this, even if it isn't the MOST profitable action they could take, it's fully possible and not throwing money into a fire. (which, with FF13 on the way, SE could probably do if they wanted to)

SE is simply using FFXI as a means to make money to put into other projects, and not really returning much to the people that play it.

[Ziero]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

Again, you're saying you honestly believe that PS2 players would be angry that the PS2 cannot support graphics more than PC players are (quite obviously already) pissed off at the PS2 for holding back memory, even though the graphics can be changed without giving an unfair advantage to ANYONE, and just making the experience nicer (PS2 users could still see pretty screenshots by their friends and LS) VISUALLY while having no effect on gameplay.

Yes, I do honestly believe that many people, INCLUDING THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERS IN JAPAN WHERE SE IS FROM WHO USE THE PS2 EXCLUSIVELY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT OWN PCs (i can type in caps too ) would be rather put off if SE gave *everyone else* far superior graphics. As is, THEY'VE STATED REPEATEDLY they want the games to be as similar as possible, so everyone can experiance the same game. Giving one, smaller, portion of their user base something better then another...for no real reason...would undoubtedly alienate a lot of people.

Oh, and 'being able to see nicer screenshots' would be more of a slap in the face then a consolation prize. Seriously, graphics DO affect gameplay in this day and age...it's why so many games nowadays seem to focus more on looks then they do substance. If they didn't, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Also, do you know ANYTHING about computers? The reason these graphics warrant an upgraded client is because NOT EVERYBODY CAN UPGRADE. Not everyone can just upgrade to the newest version. I mean, hello, DX10, that should've been a giant freaking clue. If you aren't willing to go buy Vista, you aren't enjoying that. That doesn't mean that you get ANGRY at those that do (although you're perfectly welcome to get angry at not porting to OpenGL, that's another issue), I've not once seen someone get angry that a client is having it's graphics improved, just that they can't afford to upgrade their computer for it. I've not once seen anyone actually complain about the actual IMPROVED GRAPHICS, just the situations of them, of which this would obviously not be the case.
there is still NO reason why SE can't upgrade FFXI's graphics engine on SOME CLIENTS, and then reuse said graphics on FFXI-2; especially if FFXI-2 let us import our old characters.

Nope, I know crap dandy about computers, but I do know it's easier for someone to upgrade from one PC to another...or even just upgrade parts...then it is to upgrade from a PS2 to a PC or 360. Especially in Japan where PCs and 360s aren't even near as popular as they are here. But I do know that one can take a barely workable system, buy a $30 Graphics Card, run FFXI with no trouble and still love the looks of the game because that's exactly what I did 4 years ago. The game doesn't need a graphics update, some people would just like one. Me, I'd rather they add some new animations and stuff like that to make the world more immersive in our actual play. Cause, again, as far as I'm concerned this game looks great.

[Balfree]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

SE is simply using FFXI as a means to make money to put into other projects, and not really returning much to the people that play it.

Careful, I'm a SE fanboy.

I don't know how they manage to get us new expansions and content without putting some money into it :\

[Ziero]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

SE is simply using FFXI as a means to make money to put into other projects, and not really returning much to the people that play it.

...do you even play anymore

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

Yes, I do honestly believe that many people, INCLUDING THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERS IN JAPAN WHERE SE IS FROM WHO USE THE PS2 EXCLUSIVELY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT OWN PCs (i can type in caps too ) would be rather put off if SE gave *everyone else* far superior graphics.

Umm. You do realize that PC/xBox360 clients already enjoy better graphics in the form of higher resolution textures and better special effects (like the flashy lights on spell casting), right?

There is already a gap between PS2 and other clients. What some of us are saying is that it'd be good for FFXI's long term viability to increase that existing gap and dump money into a graphics overhaul for the clients with the resources (i.e. PC, xBox360, and heck, PS3) to support it.

[Feba]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

Balfree: and there's only so much SE can do with the PS2's memory limits before the game becomes PC/360 client only (BAD IDEA), or it needs a new game (could use redone FFXI models)

Balfree/Ziero: You do realize that FFXI expansions are insanely cheap, right? Write a new plot, get some new tunes, make some new graphics (but remember, for a game with technology that's over six years old now) and push it out. I'm not saying SE doesn't spend any money on XI, that would be impossible, just that FFXI is not benefiting from the vast majority of it.

Nope, I know crap dandy about computers,

Then you'd be best not to make a fool of yourself.

but I do know it's easier for someone to upgrade from one PC to another...or even just upgrade parts...then it is to upgrade from a PS2 to a PC or 360.

HAHAHA. You do realize this is like saying that it's easier to upgrade from a Kia to a Ford than a Kawasaki to a Ford or a Dodge. Sure, it might be more familiar territory, but anyone with the intelligence to use one can use the other, and nobody wants to spend money to upgrade their car without a good reason.

If I cannot run an upgraded version, I cannot run it. Period. I don't care if I have to spend a few hundred dollars on an Xbox or a PC, I cannot run it on my hardware, and I will be kept to the current version.

Especially in Japan where PCs and 360s aren't even near as popular as they are here.

And what the fuck does popularity have to do with anything? FFXI isn't as popular as WoW, that does not make it a worse game. It does not make WoW more expensive.

But I do know that one can take a barely workable system, buy a $30 Graphics Card, run FFXI with no trouble and still love the looks of the game because that's exactly what I did 4 years ago

.
And again, there's absolutely no reason why this would ruin the ability of old computers to run FFXI

The game doesn't need a graphics update, some people would just like one.

What has SE really done to significantly improve FFXI? They've made in game fixes, sure, they've created new battle systems, but the only thing I can think of that would've actually taken a decent amount of labor and effort is Besieged (and maybe PUP and BLU), and even if they're ramping that up, they're just scaling up things they already had done. SE is putting work into FFXI, naturally, but how much of that is just to keep people entertained enough to keep paying, and how much of that is SE actually trying to improve FFXI?

Here's a question for you: have you ever considered how much someone who has played FFXI since it was released has paid for it? Assuming they had even just two mules, it's almost a thousand dollars now. If you're telling me that you seriously don't think SE owes fans more than it's giving, I don't know what to tell you.

Me, I'd rather they add some new animations and stuff like that to make the world more immersive in our actual play. Cause, again, as far as I'm concerned this game looks great.

Do you really think that a few new emotes would be more immersing than hair that doesn't look like it was stolen from a badly made sprite, or spell effects that don't look like paper models?

[ChocoboBunny]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

Feba I am with you on this. I wrote a long reply but well server killed it haha... But think about it everyone just paying $12.95/mo. with at least 500k playing for 12 months. I mean thats is around $77, 700, 000 if the 500k are all playing for that year. And for 300k fan base. $46,620,000/12/mo. Even monthly they are pulling in the cash. Those figures could be slightly off but hey. They are not out of the question for the amount we pay x the amount of months. Even if my figures are off they are making at least 30 million a year easy. Meh I back you Feba. Here look at Dark Ages of Camelot. They went from this OLD http://www.brown.edu/Research/dichtu...Age-Helden.jpg http://www.erenumerique.fr/images/je...328/daoc_1.jpg to this NEW http://www.darkageofcamelot.com/screenshots/drss02.html http://www.totkat.org/pages/graphics/site/sshot005.jpg

[Balfree]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

Obviously there will be a time when all things come to an end.

They will have to either drop FFXI, or support a dead system or keep on supporting it for the rest of their lives, which seems odd to me.

You clearly have very little concept of how much work goes into a simple thing like an expansion. It took me 2 days to put up a little gallery with rollovers and image descriptions because I kept messing up or just doing things ala trial-by-error. New content however simple it might seem, is allways a challenge and takes time, even if very little effort is put into it. Just an example.

[Ziero]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

Balfree/Ziero: You do realize that FFXI expansions are insanely cheap, right? Write a new plot, get some new tunes, make some new graphics (but remember, for a game with technology that's over six years old now) and push it out. I'm not saying SE doesn't spend any money on XI, that would be impossible, just that FFXI is not benefiting from the vast majority of it.

...so you don't play then? Alright

Then you'd be best not to make a fool of yourself.

Says the guy ranting about a highly minor subject >.>

HAHAHA. You do realize this is like saying that it's easier to upgrade from a Kia to a Ford than a Kawasaki to a Ford or a Dodge. Sure, it might be more familiar territory, but anyone with the intelligence to use one can use the other, and nobody wants to spend money to upgrade their car without a good reason.

1) Plenty of people buy new cars "just because", infact it's why leasing is so popular

2) a PC and a PS2 are two entirely different beasts. So someone familiar with a PS2 may not be familiar with PCs at all. So no, not everyone can find PCs as easy as PS2s. Xboxs, those are a different story, but still a fairly expensive alternative.

If I cannot run an upgraded version, I cannot run it. Period. I don't care if I have to spend a few hundred dollars on an Xbox or a PC, I cannot run it on my hardware, and I will be kept to the current version.

But other people will care, and will be upset if they "have" to upgrade to get the best out of the game. Or worse, need to buy an entirely new system.

And what the fuck does popularity have to do with anything? FFXI isn't as popular as WoW, that does not make it a worse game. It does not make WoW more expensive.

....ok, I'll try to explain why "popularity" is important. Most people playing this game, they don't care about the graphics as much. So popular opinion is the graphics are just fine. Why risk going against the majority of the game to please a fairly small amount of people? Why spend good money on something a small minority care about, when the majority of popular opinion would actually prefer *important* changes to be done to the game.

The game was made on the PS2 first because that was the most popular system in japan at the time...and still is. SE, if you hadn't noticed, has a strong prefernce towards their japanese audience, who also happen to be their biggest. So why would they do something that would alienate their biggest, more prefered, most popular audience? Especially when it's just not needed.

And again, there's absolutely no reason why this would ruin the ability of old computers to run FFXI

Never said it would, but hey thanks for chopping up the entire point of the comment and missing the major point.

What has SE really done to significantly improve FFXI? They've made in game fixes, sure, they've created new battle systems, but the only thing I can think of that would've actually taken a decent amount of labor and effort is Besieged (and maybe PUP and BLU), and even if they're ramping that up, they're just scaling up things they already had done. SE is putting work into FFXI, naturally, but how much of that is just to keep people entertained enough to keep paying, and how much of that is SE actually trying to improve FFXI?
Here's a question for you: have you ever considered how much someone who has played FFXI since it was released has paid for it? Assuming they had even just two mules, it's almost a thousand dollars now. If you're telling me that you seriously don't think SE owes fans more than it's giving, I don't know what to tell you.

You. Do. Not. Play. Only way you can make such an ignorant comment. SE doesn't "owe" us anything but a fun, stable, fair game environment. And that's *exactly* what they have been giving us for the past 5 years. Most people who play are happy, many people find the current graphics *beautiful*, moreso then other games. SE is adding more *content* to keep us entertained as we play and constantly trying their best to keep their game working at peak conditions. They ARE doing a damn good job of running this game.

Do you really think that a few new emotes would be more immersing than hair that doesn't look like it was stolen from a badly made sprite, or spell effects that don't look like paper models?

Yes actually, the ability to sit in a damn chair in my own mog house would be far more enjoyable to me then being able to count my strands of hair. THE GRAPHICS ARE FINE. They work with this game's art style and visual design. Better graphics would do nothing to make this a better game, it would just make it "look better". Which btw, just looking good is not enough to make a game better.

Example: FFVI is still one of the best FFs out there IMO, sprites and all....and despite their "better graphics", I greatly disliked FFX, X-2, and XII.

Umm. You do realize that PC/xBox360 clients already enjoy better graphics in the form of higher resolution textures and better special effects (like the flashy lights on spell casting), right?
There is already a gap between PS2 and other clients. What some of us are saying is that it'd be good for FFXI's long term viability to increase that existing gap and dump money into a graphics overhaul for the clients with the resources (i.e. PC, xBox360, and heck, PS3) to support it.

All in game armor, environments and effects use the same textures. The sprite counts are the same for each model on each system. PC users can boost the resolution of their own systems however, but they're still seeing the same graphical textures...just seeing them more clearly. Which in the end is a minor difference because the textures don't really look all that different in the end. Dumping money to boost 2 out of 3 of their systems wouldn't bring in new people or keep old players playing, but it could potentially piss off it's current fanbase.

I've never heard anyone say "I won't play FFXI because of crappy graphics" I've never heard of anyone quitting because of crappy graphics. Though I can honestly say that I will *not* play WoW because of how much I dislike it's art style...despite it's "superior" graphics.

But regardless of all of that. SE has stated, publicly and repeatedly *why* they won't do a major graphical overhaul. So now it's not even a question of why, we know why. All you can do is accept it...or bitch about it.

[Karinya]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

Balfree: and there's only so much SE can do with the PS2's memory limits before the game becomes PC/360 client only (BAD IDEA), or it needs a new game (could use redone FFXI models)

Not only that, but which PCs? I know people who play on PCs that struggle with the current game. My PC has some problems in crowded areas. Some fraction of the PC market also couldn't take advantage of a graphics upgrade if there was one. Possibly a large fraction.

Balfree/Ziero: You do realize that FFXI expansions are insanely cheap, right? Write a new plot, get some new tunes, make some new graphics (but remember, for a game with technology that's over six years old now) and push it out. I'm not saying SE doesn't spend any money on XI, that would be impossible, just that FFXI is not benefiting from the vast majority of it.

Unless you are sitting on SE's secret budgets, I call bullshit. The expansion and content teams have dozens of members, plus their facilities, development hardware, etc. (Of course that's on top of the servers, GMs and general overhead/staff.) See also below.

If I cannot run an upgraded version, I cannot run it. Period. I don't care if I have to spend a few hundred dollars on an Xbox or a PC, I cannot run it on my hardware, and I will be kept to the current version.

Exactly, and that is why a graphics upgrade would benefit only *some* PC users. (Assuming, for the sake of argument, that it would benefit all X360 users; I don't think that is a particularly big chunk of the playerbase anyway.) Do you know how many?

And again, there's absolutely no reason why this would ruin the ability of old computers to run FFXI

True, but they would get absolutely nothing from the change, compared to spending the same budget on more GMs, content development, or a more robust update protocol/more update servers so we don't all take 47 hours to download the WotG release update. That's why SE makes those things a higher priority (well, except the last one, which it would really be nice to see some progress on), and I agree with their decision.

What has SE really done to significantly improve FFXI? They've made in game fixes, sure, they've created new battle systems, but the only thing I can think of that would've actually taken a decent amount of labor and effort is Besieged (and maybe PUP and BLU), and even if they're ramping that up, they're just scaling up things they already had done. SE is putting work into FFXI, naturally, but how much of that is just to keep people entertained enough to keep paying, and how much of that is SE actually trying to improve FFXI?

Well, I could try to list all the features, content and balance changes since release, but why bother? You can already find it here. Except that only shows updates back to 2003 - which is post RoZ, so obviously there were more changes before that too.

If you don't think that those updates and expansions take "a decent amount of labor and effort", I challenge you, personally, to produce one monster model that looks as good as, say, Diabolos. Just one. You don't have to design its stats and abilities and balance it to be fought by a variety of different party setups, either. Maybe then you can talk about how much effort it doesn't take to produce expansions with a dozen new monster types, areas, missions, battlefield fights, several kinds of new endgame content, new avatars, jobs, equipment... even the graphics for those things is a staggering amount of work, and making them a playable game as opposed to just pretty pictures to look at is on top of that.


P.S. What BBQ probably meant to say upthread is that SE doesn't want to *fork* their code, which is a quite valid concern considering that they would be forced to maintain both forks of PC code in addition to their PS2 code and X360 code. (They could drop the old X360 code, since all X360s are identical and could all run the new engine. But that's not true for PCs, and increasing the required system specs would cut off a lot of people running on old PCs.) Effectively adding a fourth platform - ps2, old pc, new pc, X360 - and most likely gaining 0 subscribers by doing so (on top of the up-front development cost to make the upgrade itself). And then after that point all *new* content has to be made in both normal and high-def graphics, doubling (or more) its development cost going forward.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

All in game armor, environments and effects use the same textures. The sprite counts are the same for each model on each system.

Sprites for... models?! Effects using textures? Do you know what you're talking about?

From: http://www.playonline.com/ff11/envi/...tml?pageID=win

Windows(R)版FINAL FANTASY XIは、専用機能として高解像度モードを実装。 圧倒的な画像クオリティを誇る「ヴァナ・ディール」の世界が、より美しい映像表現で再現されます。 また、エフェクト処理などさまざまな部分を、お手持ちパソコンのスペックに最適化して 自由にカスタマイズすることも可能。 あなたのマシン環境にあわせて、FINAL FANTASY XIの世界をお楽しみください。

I don't know the Japanese word for texture, but this paragraph is about the differences between PS2 and PC client, and "effects processing" (エフェクト処理) is definitely mentioned.

While I may be wrong about textures (since the blurb just says higher resolution and enhanced picture quality), the PC version of the effects are enhanced.

Edit:
If the JP text appears to be mangled, try clicking on the link provided.
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P.S. What BBQ probably meant to say upthread is that SE doesn't want to *fork* their code,

Hopefully that's what he means; otherwise it wouldn't make much sense. The thing is, there are already three major forks: PS2, PC, and xBox 360. There are similar, yet all different.

A graphic engine update (a backward compatible one) wouldn't necessarily increase the number of forks by more than one; as you said, xBox360 won't need two different binaries. That's not completely horrible since they are managing three forks well already.

It would still add considerably complexity to the dev process, of course, and be likely costly to engineer.

Effectively adding a fourth platform - ps2, old pc, new pc, X360 - and most likely gaining 0 subscribers by doing so (on top of the up-front development cost to make the upgrade itself).

Which is why it would make no sense to do an engine upgrade unless the company also add a new platform, for chance at new customers. PS3 or Wii (with a hard drive bundle) is the logical choice from my standpoint. It's a question of whether S-E wants to risk that kind of money for an old MMORPG.

And then after that point all *new* content has to be made in both normal and high-def graphics, doubling (or more) its development cost going forward.

It may not be quite as bad as you think; my understanding of art asset production is that they often start off by producing a high resolution texture, then dither it down. Depending on the game and targeted platform, the artists often produce two or three sets of final textures per object for use at different view distances or clients with different capabilities.

It'll be minimal pain when producing new contents; it's actually updating the old contents which will prove troublesome.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Re: What SE could do, but won't.

Here's a question for you: have you ever considered how much someone who has played FFXI since it was released has paid for it? Assuming they had even just two mules, it's almost a thousand dollars now. If you're telling me that you seriously don't think SE owes fans more than it's giving, I don't know what to tell you.

So true Bravo!