Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

On a completely different note: Romney Says No to “Net Neutrality” | Observations, Scientific American Blog Network

It is not the role of any government to “manage” the Internet. The Internet has flourished precisely because government has so far refrained from regulating this dynamic and essential cornerstone of our economy. I would rely primarily on innovation and market forces, not bureaucrats, to shape the Internet and maximize its economic, social and scientific value.

Thanks to the non-governmental multi-stakeholder model, the Internet is — and always has been — open to all ideas and lawful commerce as well as bountiful private investment. Unfortunately, President Obama has chosen to impose government as a central gatekeeper in the broadband economy. His policies interfere with the basic operation of the Internet, create uncertainty, and undermine investors and job creators.

Specifically, the FCC’s “Net Neutrality” regulation represents an Obama campaign promise fulfilled on behalf of certain special interests, but ultimately a “solution” in search of a problem. The government has now interjected itself in how networks will be constructed and managed, picked winners and losers in the marketplace, and determined how consumers will receive access to tomorrow’s new applications and services. The Obama Administration’s overreaching has replaced innovators and investors with Washington bureaucrats.

In addition to these domestic intrusions, there are also calls for increased international regulation of the Internet through the United Nations. I will oppose any effort to subject the Internet to an unaccountable, innovation-stifling international regulatory regime. Instead, I will clear away barriers to private investment and innovation and curtail needless regulation of the digital economy.

A free and open Internet is essential component of American society and of the modern economy. I support legislation to protect intellectual property online, but any effort to combat online piracy must not reduce freedom of expression, increase cybersecurity risk, or undermine the dynamic, innovative global Internet. I also believe it is essential that we take steps to strengthen our cybersecurity and ensure that we are guarding against threats to our vital information systems and critical infrastructure, all while preserving Americans’ privacy, data confidentiality, and civil liberties and recognizing the civilian nature of cyberspace.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

income inequality stuff

Okay, no offense, but I'm not going to watch a one hour program as research into whether your position has merit. Make the points yourself. My takeaway from the show's description and the first few minutes is that there's too much money in politics, which is undermining the fairness of the system. I'll accept that, but it really doesn't tell me anything about income inequality. I mean, even if we stole 90% of the earnings from the wealthiest individuals and businesses, making all the billionaires into multimillionaires and reducing the trillion dollar corporations to mere billion dollar corporations, it seems to me that they would still have more than enough money to buy off individual judges and politicians. To my viewpoint, the amount of money in politics says more about what an imbalanced force government is that corporations are so hungry to have direct control over it.

I'm not sure what point you meant to make by linking infant mortality statistics. The US is pretty low on that list, not far behind Canada, and our health care system is notoriously garbage compared to other developed nations. I don't think there's a strong correlation there to income inequality. In fact, the US is right between Hungary and Belarus on that list, two countries with the lowest income inequality in the world.

I think your best angle is the one about "establishing a basic sense of fairness." It's absolutely true that the disparity is offensive to the personal sense of justice of many people. What human intuition tells us about the world and how it should be isn't necessarily true, though. See the long list of logical fallacies and cognitive biases for proof. Intuition is a good foundation to lay evidence on, but not an argument unto itself.

You think that increasing the income of the disadvantaged across the board would alleviate the unnecessary suffering some of them face, but I think your picture of the economics of the situation is too simplistic. If you increase the amount of currency available to the consumer market, all you're going to see is the prices of consumer goods rising to match. You won't fundamentally change the value of a day's work in food service relative to the cost of living. The poor would have more money, but frustratingly wouldn't be able to afford more than they did before. This is essentially the same argument that economists make against increases in the minimum wage, which I believe is well represented in data and I will source it if you want. Anecdotally, the minimum wage today is over twice what it was in 1990, but despite having twice as much money, the poorest workers don't seem any better off.

[Aeni]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Republicans tend to be dominant in Florida due to the very "conservative" Cuban population there. Although, as of late, Obama has gotten more of their support due to the "anti-immigration aka anti-Hispanic" rhetoric from the right. If the right tempered their rhetoric with a more "Reagan-like" feel, they'd be in the White House term after term, no matter how bad they run the country into the ground (fun fact, in just a couple of decades, the Latino/Hispanic population is projected to eclipse the caucasian population)

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Yeah it's interesting to note that in survey after survey (and various interviews I've seen on CNN and other networks) Latinos are actually more conservative than liberal... it's just the Right keeps putting in policies that make life uh, "difficult" shall we say, for them.

[Aeni]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Oh, completely forgot I replied in this thread, but back to the first page where BBQ quoted me regarding Libertarians put under the "Republican Tent". Let's just say their interests align more with that party than the Dems. Yes, they advocate a strong foreign policy backed by a strong military, which is PRECISELY what the Republicans are all about. Everything else was compromised ... because it's not a strong enough issue for them to quibble over and break their partnership.

This is completely opposite that of the Dems. For example, Latinos in general, strongly support the definition of marriage as "between a man and a woman", and the same goes with a lot (not the super majority, though) of African Americans.

The political alignments in this country are not cut and dry like the media would have you believe. Unfortunately, the word "compromise" has become such a dirty, obscene word, that I don't see people trying to hammer out deals for the greater public good anymore. That's where self interest has found their footing, laid down an unshakeable foundation, and we're quickly moving to the plutocratic society that I think some politicians have in their wet dreams.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

draw infinity

Yeah this sums it up kinda nicely.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

I don't always post Daily Show clips, but when I do, uh ... I guess I post this one:

I promise I'll get back to this income inequality thing later.

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Just watch this and see if it doesn't change your tune a bit...


Moyers & Company Show 136: The One-Percent Court - Blogs - Volconvo Debate and Talk Forums


I also highly recommend Sachs' book, "The Price of Civilization". Seriously, don't pay all the hippies who don't know wtf they're talking about (sadly they seem to get a lot of air time, just as the more extreme morons on right do - I don't entirely disagree with conservative philosophy, just all you see on TV from the right these days are the extremist assholes who force everyone in their party to tow the line.).


It's about establishing a basic sense of fairness and giving everyone a shot to do well if they've got the drive to do it - there's no reason for western nations like the U.S. & Canada (it's pretty bad up here too, anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. Canada is a fucking country club if I ever saw one - and a dull one at that.) who have so much wealth, to not spread it out more evenly. It's utterly ridiculous that of a 16 trillion annual GDP, the top 1% control over 1/3 of that - some sources saying it's closer to 42%, and the Republicans are hell bent on widening that gap. Meanwhile, in 2007, the bottom 80% only control 15% of that. Do you realize what evening that out by even just 5% would do? How much more money that would be in the hands of the average household? And this isn't even taking into account all the money that's held overseas and in offshore bank accounts - last I checked the estimates were well over 30 trillion in assets... it's insanity.

THERE IS NO REASON FOR THERE TO BE STARVING CHILDREN, TENT-CITIES, AND OTHER HORRIFYING STATISTICS IN DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES WITH THIS KIND OF WEALTH!!!



https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2091rank.html

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Ok wait, I suddenly got lost in my own reasoning. Maybe this is a stupid question but, if the US is still the 11th happiest nation in the world, 4th in standard of living, 7th in GDP per capita ... it seems like we've got a pretty happy, affluent, and productive population as a whole. Why then are we so concerned that a small percentage of us are making retarded amounts of money? I mean if we're already so well off then what's the big deal?

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Well, let me ask this then. Of the countries with the lowest Gini coefficients, what measures have those governments taken to support greater income equality?

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

The rich have too much of the money, period. And if nobody takes a stand, it won't be long before they have all of it.

So I take it you were in one of the occupy movements, right? I mean you feel so strongly about all this that you must have been... right?

[Malacite]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

it is partly a cultural thing, but I'd also like to point out that the U.S. ranks 11th about of the 20 happiest nations in the world (Canada is 9th) and IIRC, the top 3 are all Scandinavian countries.

And if you need more evidence that shit isn't right:


U.S. Income Inequality: It's Worse Today Than It Was in 1774 - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic


It's all well and good to learn how to make due with what you have - it's something that got drilled into me from a very young age. But that doesn't make things OK either. The rich have too much of the money, period. And if nobody takes a stand, it won't be long before they have all of it.

- - - Updated - - -

it is partly a cultural thing, but I'd also like to point out that the U.S. ranks 11th about of the 20 happiest nations in the world (Canada is 9th) and IIRC, the top 3 are all Scandinavian countries.

And if you need more evidence that shit isn't right:


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/us-income-inequality-its-worse-today-than-it-was-in-1774/262537/


It's all well and good to learn how to make due with what you have - it's something that got drilled into me from a very young age. But that doesn't make things OK either. The rich have too much of the money, period. And if nobody takes a stand, it won't be long before they have all of it.

[Yygdrasil]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

but then facts aren't really their strong suit.

Bazing.

[Taskmage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

Isn't this pretty much all but fact at this point?

That education is a public good? Well, I would start by saying that a vocal subset of Republicans believe it should be privatized, but then facts aren't really their strong suit.

Yes, I would say that it is, and most of the world would probably agree, but it's still true that I have a bias since I'm currently benefiting from the idea.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Melody's Melodramatic Meltdown on Mitt Romney (Tounge Twister?)

This situation might also be giving me a bias towards seeing education as a public good.

Isn't this pretty much all but fact at this point?