The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

[Cotners]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

First of all, lolAddle.

Secondly, I'm not even asking for all that much any more. Fencer isn't even that great a Job Trait in the grand scheme of things. But is sheer acknowledgment too much to ask for these days?.

I think you greatly underestimate how much of a beast RDM is right now. Two RDM/NINs can pretty much duo everything in Abyssea with only a few exceptions. And Addle isnt that bad of a spell at all. It makes quite a difference when you are killing mobs that are heavy spell casters.

BTW level your RDM.

[cidbahamut]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

To me, I don't think RDM needs much more acknowledgment than it already has. How many things could RDM (even non-epic-geared RDMs) solo that no other job could even look at without being slaughtered? It was far more at 75 than it is now, for sure, but for a long time Red Mage was THE job to get things done. Seriously, what is so wrong about giving them a chill for a little while?

Pretty sure we've been over this before. It's not about getting the new shiny buff, it's about the trait being called Fencer. I want a Fencer trait to go with my Fencing Degen. Either cough up the trait or change the name of it. I'd really be completely ok with the latter, but leaving it sitting there taunting us is rather uncalled for.

[Raydeus]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

RDM AF style, Fencing Degen, Aramis' Rapier, Fencer's Earring, Fencer's ring, etc.

Fencer job trait? Nope
Sword skill rating? B
Freaking Parrying skill?! E

Bonus:
Almace's Chant du Renard? Slashing Damage. orz

d'Artagnan and the three musketeer's must be rolling in their graves because of this.


Well, mainly because I'm talking about a video game here, but also because the treatment RDM gets is outrageous! /engarde

[Armando]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

Pretty sure we've been over this before. It's not about getting the new shiny buff, it's about the trait being called Fencer. I want a Fencer trait to go with my Fencing Degen. Either cough up the trait or change the name of it. I'd really be completely ok with the latter, but leaving it sitting there taunting us is rather uncalled for.

For whatever it's worth this is probably one of SE's translations and the trait actually has nothing to do with fencing (at least the swordplay sport) at all.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

Game balance my ass.

Which is what I was saying back when Abyssea started, but its all lulz and love until the luster of that EXP fades, isn't it? I knew the second BST and PUP were just getting invites to fill a slot that the balance of Abyssea was all wrong. Though I do find RDMs complaining about becoming third-rate healers rather hilarious, but once all those Abyssea buffs aren't a factor, what are these jobs really going to feel like?

Now that we know the cap stops at 90 for this update, that more or less tells you they have at least another two or three add-ons to cook-up. I would be highly surprised if FFXI ever got a proper expansion again.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

For whatever it's worth this is probably one of SE's translations and the trait actually has nothing to do with fencing (at least the swordplay sport) at all.

ƒtƒ@ƒCƒiƒ‹ƒtƒ@ƒ“ƒ^ƒW[XI ŒöŽ®ƒTƒCƒg

吟遊詩人 Lv85 フェンサー
Ginyuushijin Lv85 Fensaa
Bard Lv85 Fencer

Nope, S-E is definitely trolling us.

[Malacite]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

Link? I find this odd as I believe DW and Haste stack multiplicatively, which implies that even if they counted towards the same cap, the Haste cap would not be as low as you're making it out to be through subtraction. 0.75 * 0.65 = 0.4875, or 51.25% delay reduction.

The Current Hierarchy of DDs


Read it and weep

Ok, as it was tentatively confirmed (by MercilessTurtle) that there is indeed a delay cap for both dual wield and haste together, there's some tweaks that need to be made to the conclusions.

Mnk/War w/Haste+2xMarch+Haste Samba = 586.942 DPS
Nin/War w/Haste+2xMarch+Haste Samba = 409.743 DPS (would have been 546.118 without the cap)

Haste Samba is what pushes things past the cap. Same stuff, but without that:
Mnk/War w/Haste+2xMarch = 450.970 DPS
Nin/War w/Haste+2xMarch = 409.743 DPS (same as above)

So without Haste Samba, Nin would need :Hi to average 2,651 to match Mnk (3,177 once counter damage is added in), certainly within the realm of possibility. With Haste Samba added, though, there's no way nin can catch up.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/100...=1#post4254363

Quick and dirty test, but unless I messed something up I would say that is correct. I had to test on dnc: 30% DW from traits, 10% from gear. 23% gear haste, 43.75% from SV marches+haste. All together that should give me 0.6 * 0.3325 = 0.1995 of my original delay. Counting swings with no double attack gear/traits I got ~1.48 swings/sec. Then I added haste samba and counting swings I got ~1.55. Both pretty close for such a short and imprecise test. And with my delay of 201+186, I should get about 1.55 swings/sec at 80% delay reduction. So, if there was no delay reduction cap haste samba should have made a huge difference, bringing me up to over 2.2 swings/sec.

Assuming this is correct, that means ideal tp gear for nin with marches and haste is juogi+1, DW belt and shinobi ring? And with soul voice or haste samba all you can swap out is belt and ring (and I guess suppa)?

[Elwynn]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

Which is what I was saying back when Abyssea started, but its all lulz and love until the luster of that EXP fades, isn't it? I knew the second BST and PUP were just getting invites to fill a slot that the balance of Abyssea was all wrong.

I don't think I have ever gotten a blind aby /tell when on PUP or BST. I have on WHM and BLM for Nyzul or Warp/Retrace. (My only other 75+ is RDM and I'm rarely on it.)

Once I asked someone forming an ally if PUP was okay, and he was like Yes! Yes! but I think he at least understood that PUP could nuke. I even switched attachments when we switched lights, since I have two main configurations that are three attachments and one head apart.

But really, I kind of like the SEP Field I get from going PUP. I don't want to aby unless it's before 2PM, because I want that {long time} XP.

[Armando]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

@Mal: The test concluded that you can't drop your weapon's delay below 80% of its original value (it was previously thought that you could get an 80% reduction from Haste on top of DW's reduction.) This is VERY different from your claim that "an 85 NIN with 25 gear haste is for all practical purposes already at 60% haste as far as attack speed goes."

Your claim: A NIN with 35% DW will cap speed with 80-35=45% Haste. This would leave them at 64.25% delay reduction.
What actually happens: A NIN with 35% DW caps at 80% delay reduction just like everyone else. They require 69.23% Haste. (Obviously less Haste would be required with more DW.)

There IS a penalty in the fact that someone with 80% Haste keeps their original TP on each swing while someone with 35% DW + 70% Haste has whatever their TP is after the 35% DW reduction.

To illustrate: the tester's average weapon Delay was 194. Suppose we had two NINs, both with two 194 Delay weapons, except one has 0% DW and 80% Haste, the other has 35% DW and 70% Haste. Both reach a minimum Delay of 194*0.2 = 38.8, which is 1.546 hits per second.

Ninja 1: 5.3 TP/swing, 8.19 TP/sec.
Ninja 2: 4.5 TP/swing, 6.97 TP/sec.

Looking at the numbers, the TP penalty is 15%. That's the only repercussion.

Does this nerf them significantly? I don't know. I would think that at 1.55 swings/sec you'd be getting some damned good mileage out of your Innin. I don't know if you fight low Def or high Def mobs post-75 (which would make Innin more or less valuable), or what NIN weapons are like now compared to other jobs' weapons. Still, we all knew NIN wasn't the best job to zerg with. But they can reach the 80% delay drop just like everyone else, so they're not a waste of a slot unless you have that many DRKs I guess.

[Malacite]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

But they can reach the 80% delay drop just like everyone else, so they're not a waste of a slot unless you have that many DRKs I guess.

That's about all DRK's good for anymore and even then... give a NIN Blade: Hi and it jumps right up to the number 2/3 slot for DD potential inside Abyssea. Kinda funny how lolNIN is now right in the contention for top DD with MNK and WAR (though after this update MNK is actually going to overtake WAR)

[Armando]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

After some more consideration I realized two things:
1) A 15% TP reduction is fair trade when you consider that DW boosts WS damage (generally by more than 15%) and TP return from WS.
2) A NIN COULD have 0% DW if he wanted to - all he has to do is drop his second weapon.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

It's well and good to know the ultimate theoretical limit of DDs under full buff condition, but most people out there haven't even hit gear haste cap in TP set, and having all the haste support is not a common thing at all. Heck, sometimes getting a Cure is a cause for celebration, nevermind getting Haste cast on you.

Damage output performance depends on the player, the gear/food/Atma/job he's using, and the support he has. Last Xarcabard run, the person with the best melee DPS output was a PLD--my "dual wield except when holding NM or kiting flying eyeballs" PLD. (Lost out on WS DPS--Vorpal Blade using Lv.75-ancient weapons can't keep up with the likes of WAR and SAM, especially when Blinda is more scarce than water in a desert.)

I don't think we need to quote from BG to know that PLD fooling around or Organics and Joyeuse using mostly Lv.75 and under gear isn't supposed to be a strong DD in today's FF11 with empyrean armor/weapon melees running around. But, for the Dynamis LS I'm in, I am a strong DD on PLD. (Not to mention I'm one of the top people in terms of direct Cure cast.)

Yeah, we can agree some DDs are getting obscene amount of boosts, but it doesn't guarantee that WAR standing next to you won't suck or you'll have March x2 and Haste for the melee jobs next time in party/alliance to make worrying about total delay close to a practical concern.

Take it all with a grain of salt is my advice.

[Malacite]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

I don't think we need to quote from BG to know that PLD fooling around or Organics and Joyeuse using mostly Lv.75 and under gear isn't supposed to be a strong DD in today's FF11 with empyrean armor/weapon melees running around. But, for the Dynamis LS I'm in, I am a strong DD on PLD. (Not to mention I'm one of the top people in terms of direct Cure cast.)

Actually, with Empyrean or WoE +1 weapon PLD can do some nasty damage with Chant. Just need RR & VV (or even SS really, since that also boosts HP & Enmity)


Actually that's a damn good combo now that i think about it... the 30% crit damage is wasted somewhat since the cap is 50%, but only by 10% and it's worth it for the extra HP & Enmity. Even Vorpal can hit pretty hard under those conditions. I mean shit, if a RDM can break 4400 with chant, a PLD should be able to do more.

[Firewind]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

So WHMs yet again get absolutely nothing?

I think I'll stick to Cataclysm thanks. At least specialist healers are wanted there.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The Mercury Keeps Rising: Level Cap to Be Increased! (12/01/2010)

the 30% crit damage is wasted somewhat since the cap is 50%, but only by 10% and

Huh?

Fight #227-#961: Abyssea-Vunkerl 04-DEC-2010; mostly Devegetator (crawler) in the selection

Melee-Damage
Player------------Melee-Dmg---Melee-%---Hit/Miss---M.Acc-%--M.Low/Hi----M.Avg--#Crit--C.Low/Hi---C.Avg-----Crit%
Itazura--------------487574---59.63-%---1858/114---94.22-%-----2/265---150.19---1011---153/531--356.44---54.41-%
Keithdragoon-------------16---57.14-%--------1/0--100.00-%-----16/16----16.00------0-------0/0----0.00----0.00-%
Laausuu---------------87104---48.87-%----996/115---89.65-%------0/81----40.08----582----66/204--121.15---58.43-%
Lordshido-------------32524---74.83-%----917/289---76.04-%------0/58----27.31----152----32/120---76.54---16.58-%
Lpsojiro-------------485316---56.49-%---1738/138---92.64-%-----0/360---159.02----949----40/522--379.19---54.60-%
Terre-----------------51418---50.53-%-----756/60---92.65-%-----0/153----57.60-----91----75/212--144.14---12.04-%
Valenia------------------59--100.00-%--------3/8---27.27-%-----12/24----19.67------0-------0/0----0.00----0.00-%
Zwergy---------------135179---79.12-%---1969/376---83.97-%------0/53----26.35---1107----54/157--101.59---56.22-%

I was on SAM/NIN the entire time, Lpsojiro on WAR/NIN. Zwergy was NIN/WAR until he changed to WHM, and Laausuu was BLU/NIN then changed to (back line) RDM. The four of us were using RR Atma, and all four of us had above 50% crit hit rate.

What 50% cap? Where did you get such a strange number?